Rapture & 2nd Coming - A Single Unified Event

[Super Kal]

more importantly, the belief that there are two Second Comings is unbiblical.

Jesus Christ always taught He would come back only one more time... not stop in the clouds, snatch people away, then come back 7 years later

 

[Lysimachus]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'm surprised there are a lot more post-tribbers here than I thought.

Stay tuned for some of my upcoming posts on this subject. Must get some other work don for now. Until next time!

Blessings =]

Lys

 

[eclipsenow]

more importantly, the belief that there are two Second Comings is unbiblical.

Jesus Christ always taught He would come back only one more time... not stop in the clouds, snatch people away, then come back 7 years later

I'll second that!

The pre-trib rapture only occurs after 1830 due to Darby. Darby was a real piece of work! Other great theologians of the time had real trouble not just with Darby's ideas and strange new teachings, but with his behaviour and mocking hostility to any who did not accept his ideas. Spurgeon was most perplexed and troubled by Darby's hostility. Darby ended up so hostile to any criticism of his weird ideas that he joined the Brethren and ended up claiming that only His particular church, and everyone who accepted his Dispensational teachings, were truly Christian. He ends up coming across like just another authoritarian quack, just another of the 'Millennial' movements. He's like a the founders of the Mormon's and JW's and Seventh Day adventists, especially when He claims that only his church are truly Christians. Thankfully, many Dispy's I've debated here at least accept me as a Christian!

Then that big fake "Dr" Scofield promoted it, with his phoney doctorate and single handed attempt to translate and footnote the entire bible. (Usually this requires a whole team of theologians specialising in various areas — but we are to 'trust' the work of a guy who fakes his own doctorate?) Scofield also omitted to tell any church employers of his previous divorce and the fact that he did not pay any kind of support to his 2 little girls. A real nice guy to boot!

The Scofield bible is probably more responsible for the growth of Dispensationalism than anything else, and yet it is not worth the paper it is printed on. If you have one, take it out and burn it.

 

[Lysimachus]

He's like a the founders of the Mormon's and JW's and Seventh Day adventists, especially when He claims that only his church are truly Christians. Thankfully, many Dispy's I've debated here at least accept me as a Christian!

You "almost" offended me, but I get your point. Reason is, I have strong roots with Adventism, and while many Adventists do act that way, it was not how the originators acted. Adventism was and is EXTREMELY opposed to Dispensationalism. Remember, some of the VERY best refutations ever done against Dispensationalism were Adventist scholars. In fact, many other denominations use the works of Adventists to refute Dispensationalism. As they have done extremely sound works on Covenant theology, as they are, essentially, Covenant Theologically oriented.

Here is a website by an Adventist friend of mine, where his friend (who just passed away due to heart-failure) wrote a book entitled:

Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion, ~ by D.S. Farris

It's 550 pages long, but all 12 chapters are there. There are no doubt a number of "Adventist ideas" intertwined, but overall, the material is still sufficient for any covenant-theology advocate. Pay particular attention to chapter 8. It will blow you away.

 

[eclipsenow]

While I appreciate what you are saying, I'm not sure I'll be devoting too much attention to a work by someone that thought Ellen was nearly writing scripture.

Inspiration of Ellen G. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, but 2 Timothy 3:16 is my guide.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that all God’s people[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I don't need Ellen's writings as Scripture alone thoroughly equips me.

 

[Lysimachus]

While I appreciate what you are saying, I'm not sure I'll be devoting too much attention to a work by someone that thought Ellen was nearly writing scripture.

Inspiration of Ellen G. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, but 2 Timothy 3:16 is my guide.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that all God’s people[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I don't need Ellen's writings as Scripture alone thoroughly equips me.

That is a favorite text of mine, and also a favorite of many Adventists. Interestingly, it was a favorite of Ellen White's too, lol. She constantly referred to it to bring people back to the Bible. Her writings never "replaced" the Bible, but only pointed people back to the Bible.

So all doctrines must be, and can only be established by the Bible and the Bible alone. Every single doctrine formed by Adventism was formed by a study of the Bible by a number of evangelical Christians, and who later introduced them to Ellen White. After studying them, she concluded they were from God, and of course, also received visions confirming that what the pioneers had found in the Bible was correct.

So just wanted to clarify that.

Keep in mind that Adventists do not recognize Ellen White as a "canonical prophet". King David was well aware that adultery was sin, yet it took the Prophet Nathan to shake him to his senses. The Prophet Nathan wrote his own book (see 1 Chronicles 29:29; 2 Chronicles 9:29) ....a book to admonish and counsel the people, redirecting them back to the canonical writings of Moses and Samuel. But the Prophet Nathan's book never made it into the canon, along with many other Old Testament prophets, that, although were "inspired", never made it into the canonical writings.

The materials I linked are nothing to do with Ellen White. They are all based on the Bible and the Bible alone. Judge the material yourself.

 

[NJBeliever]

A pre-trib 'rapture' is just one of many silly offshoots developed by Darby in the 1830's. The church somehow remained ignorant of a 'rapture' for believers for all 1800 years prior to this. Talk about re-reading the bible! For more evidence, see the wiki.

While some early church fathers were Premils, NONE of them taught Dispensationalism or a Rapture. They were all 'Covenant' theology. The whole bible points to Jesus as the Messiah and saviour of the true Kingdom of God which is the church, both Jew and Gentile believers, and there is no more 'plan' for the Jews since the destruction of the temple.

Sorry mate, but it's just a historic fact.

For one I am NOT an adherent to the pre-trib model and secondly, I really am not persuaded by what the early church fathers said when it comes in conflict with Scripture. The church fathers as men could be prone to error in interpretation but Scripture is God-breathed. But even then, your point is wrong. Victorinus's commentary on Revelation has the rapture appropriately occurring before the Great Tribulation. And considering he wrote it in
260 AD I think it's safe to say he had the idea before Darby.

The simple fact, once again is that the gatherings you are citing in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 are not the rapture. And in the Old Testament GOD, not a church father, says He is going to gather the Israelites back to Israel, in what is a separate event from the rapture.

So here is my explanation that I suggested you read. I will post it here:


The Post-Trib model forces its adherents to take the following verses as being the rapture:


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

Unfortunately, under clear Biblical scrutiny, the events of verse 31 are not the Rapture of the Church. The rapture is described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:



16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



This is the Rapture. And we need to pay close attention to the details to make sure we understand the event correctly. We are literally “caught up” and fly into the clouds when Jesus HIMSELF descends from Heaven. Jesus is the actor in the Rapture, not his angels. And we MEET HIM in the air. Again, we are not meeting angels. We are meeting Jesus. What is being described in verse 31 of Matthew 24 is something altogether different. In verse 31 the ANGELS are clearly the actors here. Jesus is sending them out. He is not the actor. Only a misreading or changing of Scripture can lead to a different conclusion.



So if verse 31 is not the rapture, then what is it? It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites. And of course, since the Bible ALWAYS has a type and shadow for every future prophetic event, we can find it in Scripture:



Jesus constantly affirms Old testament Scripture when he speaks in the Gospels. And this passage form Matthew is confirming several:


Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven outunto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

So we see the earliest mention of a gathering from the outmost parts of Heaven. But there is more:

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


So we see 4 clear aspects of each passage:
1. The elect, Israel, are gathered together.
2. There is a sign for the nations.
3. The great trumpet shall be blown.
4. They are gathered from the four corners of the earth.



Separately, these 4 concepts contain 8 elements:
1. The elect, Israel 2. are gathered together 3. there is a Sign 4. For the nations 5. Great Trumpet 6. Blown & sounds 7. From four corners 8. Of the Earth



The Biblical parallelism is quite clear once again. The passages from Deuteronomy and Isaiah have all of these elements and match with Matthew 24:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the prophesied gathering of the Jews. The parallels are unmistakable. And thus the post-trib model fails on this point. Because what it presumes to be the rapture, is not even the rapture.

 

[B1inHim]

One second coming, one.

He didn't stop in the clouds, He was already there, on one.

It isn't 7 years that takes place between His in the clouds harpazo and His second coming.

We come OUT of the GT.

We are gathered up during the GT, praise GOD (see Rev.7)...THEN AFTER the GT His Day begins and we return with Him in His Glory.

***EDITED***

Either way, yours or what I have shown, by all means all of us should be ready when it happens. I mean every aspect of the things that are scripturally taking place have been completely exhausted by these forums, so no matter what, all of us should be ready.

All except those who believe in the PRE-tribulation teaching, they missed their time and now they either have to agree with the GT harpazo or the POST teaching.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr they can keep on believing in something that is not even in the bible unless you use a formula.

Kinda like the way the POST teaching uses a formula of scriptures to answer a question that can be answered by simply following the story.

We come out of the GT.

There will be others who will make it to the end of the GT but that will not be most all of us who are reading these posts or attending church's or going to work or living under the overpass or living in a tent city or waiting to be evicted in a foreclosure or being sold as a sex slave or selling drugs in the ally or dieing of starvation while healthy livestock roam the streets or eat a loaf of bread that cost a days wage or.... this list goes on ad infinitum... no most all of us who are here today will not survive the devastation's that will soon overtake this planet. (See Rev. 6:12-19:21)

A number so great that no man can count them, will come out of the Great Tribulation, they will be clothed in white robes, given palm branches and will serve GOD forever by His will in whatever capacity that He deems according necessary, which will happen several years before the POST teaching teaches.

Only a FEW of us who are here now will make it alive, ALL the way to the very end of the GT.
Many will be murdered for their witness, they will be beheaded for the witness of Jesus, for the word of God, which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is the first resurrection which should never be confused with the harpazo that we are brought out of the GT with.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.



It is the "bundle theology" that teaches that every body in Christ will reign during this 1,000 years. That we all get to be there and that is not what is written, unless you use a formula.

WE need to remember that there is a GREAT MULTITUDE that are completely removed from the planet long before this takes place.

THEN we need to remember EXACTLY who is listed as being there in that particular 1,000 years.

VERBATIM PRE-REQUISITES:beheaded for the witness of Jesus, for the word of God, which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The #1 pre-requisite is be decapitate/martyred for GOD.

That didn't happen to ALL of those in the GREAT MULTITUDE.

Anyhow, there are going to be some semi-global cataclysmal, severely destructive events that are GOING to happen in the very, very near future...

The events began in our generation and this generation will not pass till all theses things comes to pass.

“Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 The five who were foolish didn’t take enough olive oil for their lamps, 4 but the other five were wise enough to take along extra oil. 5 When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight they were roused by the shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out and meet him!’
7 “All the bridesmaids got up and prepared their lamps. 8 Then the five foolish ones asked the others, ‘Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.’
9 “But the others replied, ‘We don’t have enough for all of us. Go to a shop and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were gone to buy oil, the bridegroom came. Then those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was locked. 11 Later, when the other five bridesmaids returned, they stood outside, calling, ‘Lord! Lord! Open the door for us!’
12 “But he called back, ‘Believe me, I don’t know you!’

13 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of My return, thus saith the LORD.

by His Love,
Brother Jerry

P.S.
YES!!!!! we do get to reign and be rulers look in the second to the last chapter of the book and see that nations will still be around.

 

[Super Kal]

really am not persuaded by what the early church fathers said when it comes in conflict with Scripture. The church fathers as men could be prone to error in interpretation but Scripture is God-breathed. But even then, your point is wrong. Victorinus's commentary on Revelation has the rapture appropriately occurring before the Great Tribulation. And considering he wrote it in
260 AD I think it's safe to say he had the idea before Darby. =

you are 100% absolutely, completely, unequivocally, and utterly wrong concerning Victorinus.

Victorinus, On the Apocalypse of John, 20:1-3 (A.D. 270)
“The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church. Finally, he says, after that the devil shall be loosed, and will seduce the nations in the whole world, and will entice war against the Church, the number of whose foes shall be as the sand of the sea.”

concerning the Book of Revelation itself, this is his commentary
ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

you can read it when you want, but I'm going to highlight the important stuff for you

4, 5. “And I saw thrones, and them that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were slain on account of the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast nor his image, nor have received his writing on their forehead or in their hand; and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years: the rest of them lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”] There are two resurrections. But the first resurrection is now of the souls that are by the faith, which does not permit men to pass over to the second death. Of this resurrection the apostle says: “If ye have risen with Christ, seek those things which are above.”

6. “Blessed and holy is he who has part in this resurrection: on them the second death shall have no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and they shall reign with Him a thousand years.”] I do not think the reign of a thousand years is eternal; or if it is thus to be thought of, they cease to reign when the thousand years are finished. But I will put forward what my capacity enables me to judge. The tenfold number signifies the decalogue, and the hundredfold sets forth the crown of virginity: for he who shall have kept the undertaking of virginity completely, and shall have faithfully fulfilled the precepts of the decalogue, and shall have destroyed the untrained nature or impure thoughts within the retirement of the heart, that they may not rule over him, this is the true priest of Christ, and accomplishing the millenary number thoroughly, is thought to reign with Christ; and truly in his case the devil is bound. But he who is entangled in the vices and the dogmas of heretics, in his case the devil is loosed. But that it says that when the thousand years are finished he is loosed, so the number of the perfect saints being completed, in whom there is the glory of virginity in body and mind, by the approaching advent of the kingdom of the hateful one, many, seduced by that love of earthly things, shall be overthrown, and together with him shall enter the lake of fire.

8–10. “And they went up upon the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil who seduced them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where both the beast and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”] This belongs to the last judgment. And after a little time the earth was made holy, as being at least that wherein lately had reposed the bodies of the virgins, when they shall enter upon an eternal kingdom with an immortal King, as they who are not only virgins in body, but, moreover, with equal inviolability have protected themselves, both in tongue and thought, from wickedness; and these, it shows, shall dwell in rejoicing for ever with the Lamb.


Victorinus, by no means WHATSOEVER, held to the belief of some "pre-wrath" rapture, nor did he hole to a pre-tribulation rapture, or a post-tribulation rapture... he didn't even teach the concept of a rapture, because he expresses an early amillennial and possible postmillennial perspective on the book of Revelation.

your "pre-wrath" didn't even exist until its creation in the early 90's with Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen.
the simple fact is that you follow a doctrine created by man... a very new doctrine that has absolutely NO Biblical support, and no credibility concerning church history.

next time, do some research before making claims.

 

[zeke37]

while some here who seem like pre tribbers, might not call themselves pre tribbers,
they all believe that they leave the planet early...

 

[Super Kal]

while we're speaking on the historical aspect of the millennium, guess what WAS historically accurate within the church, even BEFORE 270 AD?... yeah, post-tribulation:

Justin Martyr: Dialog with Trypho, CX (110-165 AD)
"[T]wo advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set
forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in
which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy,
who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do
unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident
that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all
the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown
to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do
not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more
do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God
through the name of Jesus"

absolutely NOTHING concerning pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or pre-wrath... and he wasnt the only one who taught that. ALL ante-Nicene fathers taught that Christ returned AFTER the tribulation.

 

[B1inHim]

LOL, no, we leave when it says we leave... during the GT.

Unless of course y'all believe that you are going to completely endure the entire GT...

But then what will we tell the Great Multitude who are actually in heaven who came out of the Great Tribulation in Rev. 7?

You know, the part of scripture that tells us that a Great Multitude will be in heaven in Rev.7

You know, Revelation 7, that has not happened yet.

Revelation 7 that happens before Revelation 19 and 20.

"You are all here too soon!"
or
"Oh, wait, you are not supposed to be here yet."
or even better yet
"Wait, I am not supposed to be here yet, I still have to be on the planet till the end of the Great Tribulation..."

MANY here will be part of the Great Multitude of Rev.7, period.

The resurrection in Rev 20 is not the same as the harpazo in I Thes.4 nor are either of them the same thing as the "second coming".

Each serve a separate and Divinely original purpose.

You might be able to get three service's from Verizon in a bundle package but you cannot get the three events of Rev 20, I Thes 4 and Rev 19 all in one neat bundle, unless you use a formula.

We cannot ignore the Great Multitude as not happening before the end of the Great Tribulation.

Even trying to bundle TWO, like the harpazo and the second coming, is not scripturally sound unless you use a formula.

Apostle Paul, under the direct influence of Holy Spirit, writing to the Thessalonians didn't include the second coming with the harpazo. That includes I Cor 15-51... also.

Nor did Lord Jesus include the harpazo when He told us about the second coming.

Men, with their finite understanding formulated the two into one, not God.

Have a great week y'all

by His Love,
Brother Jerry

 

[eclipsenow]

The simple fact, once again is that the gatherings you are citing in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 are not the rapture. And in the Old Testament GOD, not a church father, says He is going to gather the Israelites back to Israel, in what is a separate event from the rapture.

But He did gather them back from Exile. Literally. Then Jesus fulfilled that whole convent. Spiritually.

We are literally “caught up” and fly into the clouds when Jesus HIMSELF descends from Heaven. Jesus is the actor in the Rapture, not his angels. And we MEET HIM in the air.

Nice attempt there at separating out Jesus rapture from the Angels on Judgement Day, but what do you do about the following verse which has both actors involved?


Mt 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Oops

 

[eclipsenow]

This is clearly the prophesied gathering of the Jews. The parallels are unmistakable. And thus the post-trib model fails on this point. Because what it presumes to be the rapture, is not even the rapture.

Gee, I hope not, because otherwise am I really one of God's people or not? Call me a simpleton, but I thought the NT thought all these types were for us, Christians. If Deuteronomy is a type for Christians, what spiritual promises are in there? We all know the passage promises that if Israel repents and keeps God's commands they'll go back to their homeland after exile.

THIS HAPPENED before the Romans! THIS IS ALREADY FULFILLED!

But I'm interested in the other, longer lasting covenants God made with his people mentioned in 'your' passage of Deut 30.

The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7

Is that ringing any bells?

Romans 2:29
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

In other words, this is a Covenant Theology passage. Deut 30 looks forward to God's people as those who have a 'circumcision of the heart' by the Spirit. We're talking about born again believers. As you said, "The parallels are unmistakable."

 

[NJBeliever]

But He did gather them back from Exile. Literally. Then Jesus fulfilled that whole convent. Spiritually.

This is just wholly incorrect. Show the passages where God promises a gathering of the Israelites from the Babylonian captivity. The passages I am citing are from the dispersion of the Israelites all over the world, not from the time of the captivity in Babylon. You are once again confusing events, which is not surprising since you do not use any Old Testament scripture or exposition in your remarks.

Nice attempt there at separating out Jesus rapture from the Angels on Judgement Day, but what do you do about the following verse which has both actors involved?


Mt 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Oops

With all due respect, your use of Scripture out of context is stunning. This passage, the Judgment of Nations is the start of the Millenium that you do not believe in. Jesus is on His Throne. Armageddon is over at this point. now He is installed in Jerusalem on the throne of David "in His glory" and then his angels are with Him. At His Second Coming, He is with His saints. This is the problem when you are just looking for proof texts and not really examining scripture with a ready mind. The scriptures I provided above with their exposition establish the clear fulfillment of the Old Testament prophetic gathering at Matthew 24.

 

[NJBeliever]

Gee, I hope not, because otherwise am I really one of God's people or not? Call me a simpleton, but I thought the NT thought all these types were for us, Christians. If Deuteronomy is a type for Christians, what spiritual promises are in there? We all know the passage promises that if Israel repents and keeps God's commands they'll go back to their homeland after exile.[/'quote]

Where does it say that every prophecy is a type for Christians?? What Scripture are you basing that on?

THIS HAPPENED before the Romans! THIS IS ALREADY FULFILLED!

The Jewish dispersion happened at 70AD. So it would be after the Romans.

And regarding Christians being Jews and such, we are only Jews inwardly. The outward Jews, physical descendants are a different group, even in the New Testament:

Romans 11:6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



This is is a basic, straightforward Biblical concept. The ancestral Jews are a separate group from the Gentile Christians. They are the natural branches who walk in darkness UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. One the church is complete, they will then have God's attention turned back to THEM for their redemption. This shows a specific future for Jews that is separate from Gentile Christians. Which means any of this talk that they do not count or are not differentiated for purposes of prophetic Scripture is absolutely false. I challenge you to actually examine and expound upon this passage if you can find a different interpretation of what Paul is clearly saying.

 

[eclipsenow]

Where does it say that every prophecy is a type for Christians?? What Scripture are you basing that on?

Eph 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 45 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Or Hebrews 1
Hebrews 1

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.


Everything is going to be under Christ, and Jesus inherits everything. There's not going to be any 'Israelites' and 'temple' in the Millennium, for example, because Hebrews makes it quite that Jesus is the ultimate High Priest now.

The Jewish dispersion happened at 70AD. So it would be after the Romans.

Sorry mate but the OT prophets were speaking of Israel's coming home after Exile under the Babylonians. This happened.

When we come to the destruction of the temple in AD 70, Jesus HIMSELF predicted the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24. He warned everyone to get out. I don't see Jesus once mentioning that the temple would be rebuilt, or that Israel would come home again. Because WE are the 'sons of Abraham', and because Jesus would 'rebuild the temple in 3 days' = the Sign of Jonah = his death and resurrection. And anyone who has bothered to read Romans and Hebrews knows how the NT spiritualises the temple, the priesthood, the abolition of the old Covenant as utterly fulfilled in Christ and transformed into our new spiritual reality. WE are the 'holy nation, a royal priesthood'. WE are the mystery sealed up in Daniel's scroll, that even I, an Australian, could be one of God's people! The gospel going out into all nations is the great mystery!

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain, (gospel)
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. (Gentiles, and even Australians! )
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, (We are the Kingdom and the Priests)
and they will reign[b] on the earth.” (We reign on the earth now!)


Your particular reading of Romans 11 is classic Darbyism which only started with Darby in 1830. The overall thrust of the NT is that WE are God's people, both Jew and Gentile that believe in Christ. Now while it might be possible to read into Romans 11 that there will be a big salvation of the Jews just prior to the Lord's return — and I'm not convinced by that argument — but even if it is true, what does that change? WE are still God's kingdom. They are only saved as they join US. Got it? Otherwise why did Paul get so heated about the circumcision groups that were trying to make Christians Jews? If they are still God's people, what's the big deal?

This shows a specific future for Jews that is separate from Gentile Christians.

This is Darbyism at its worst. There is no 'future for the Jews' outside of US. They must become Christians, or else! At the MOST all that Romans 11 is saying is that heaps of Jews will become Christians.

The overall thrust of the NT makes me wonder though. Books like Hebrews and Romans so absolutely smash any ongoing business with the Old Covenant that I'm left scratching my head as to how modern Dispy's can keep the pressure in. The inconsistencies they struggle to contain in their skulls must be like magma building. For many, like Dr Kim Riddlebarger, the pressure gets too much and these inconsistencies explode outwards, destroying their Dispensationalism and converting them to Covenant Theology. The plan of the whole bible has always been about bringing everything under Jesus and fulfilling the main roles of Prophet, Priest, and King under him.

So now to the problems with Romans 11.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved.

In the context of the WHOLE BIBLE (including Hebrews, and the rest of Romans, and indeed the rest of this passage) I see Paul flipping the word Israel here. He has been emphasising how Jew and Gentile now BOTH make up the Kingdom of God. He has emphasised how Gentiles are coming in to make Jews jealous. Note the goal — the Jews are being made jealous NOT to resurrect the old ways but so that they too might repent and become... Israelites? Rebuild the temple? NO! So that they might become Christians.

So anyway, Gentiles are coming in so that Jews might become jealous of this larger kingdom of God, check it out, and some of them will become Christians, and in this way ALL ISRAEL (Both Jew and Gentile) will be saved!

Jesus spoke of making sons of Abraham from the stones. (Possibly our Gentile hardened hearts being reborn?) James addresses the church as...

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.


You might just see me as switching Paul's word "Israel" around for convenience, to suit my argument. But I see it there in the way his argument is unfolding, and I see it as consistent with the rest of the bible. And so do MANY reformed evangelical scholars. Indeed, so do many of the early church fathers. This has been the majority way of viewing this passage for the vast majority of Christian history! Until Darby in 1830.


Anyway, even if you're right and "All Israel" actually refers to the Jews, it still just means they have to become Christians. Unless you have some other passage to back up their doing Jewish things again, and this somehow being important? But before you go quoting the Old Testament at me out of context, I'd suggest a STRONG study of Romans and Hebrews.


Regards.

 

[Lysimachus]

The actual proof that James is referring to the Church when he says "to the twelve tribes scattered..." is found in the context:

James

1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
...
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.​

 

[Super Kal]

...Men, with their finite understanding...

this is the pot calling the kettle black, Jerry.
your pre-wrath doctrine didn't even exist until 1992

 

[LovedofHim]

this is the pot calling the kettle black, Jerry.
your pre-wrath doctrine didn't even exist until 1992

1992? Pre-wrath, eh?

I assume you refer to a pre-wrath resurrection and gathering of God's people?

When was Isaiah written? I'll bet it was way before 1992!


Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

NIV:

Isaiah 26:19 But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

When does God say the day of wrath begins?


12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

NIV:


Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


My Bible shows the church standing in heaven in Revelation 7 before the wrath begins. I'm pretty sure that Revelation was written before 1992 too.