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Rapture & 2nd Coming - A Single Unified Event

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Lysimachus, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. Super Kal

    Super Kal Endurance is a journey

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    do you know what kind of wrath Revelation 6:12-17 is talking about?

    but better yet, explain why the same event in Revelation 6:14 is shown once again in Revelation 16:20... which is being shown AFTER the 16:1 wrath...
    the most interesting thing here, when you really study (meaning going back to the Greek), is that the "wrath" mentioned in Rev. 6:17 is different from the "wrath" mentioned in Rev. 15:1 & 16:1...

    and did you know that Isaiah 26:19-21 was used by the early church to express the concept of soul sleeping, and was not used as a "proof text" for "pre-tribulation" until the Scofield Reference Bible in 1907?

    my Bible shows that the rapture and the Second Coming are a unified event... both scripturally, exegetically, and historically
     
  2. LovedofHim

    LovedofHim Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid you'll have to try again. The "earth giving birth to the dead" "awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust" is not describing "soul sleep".


    19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


    And yes, you are correct, the snatching away of the church and the 2nd coming (return) of the Lord happen at the same moment in time.

    When the Lord returns, he removes the church, seals a remnant of Israel, casts down the devil, destroys gog, uses the devil's antichrist to destroy mystery babylon, gives the two witnesses time to testify before he allows the devil to kill them, pours out wrath in the form of trumepts and bowls, allows the devil to gather the armies of the world for battle and then Christ comes on the clouds to destroy and bind.

    Did you catch all that?

    The return of the Lord is when He removes the church but His coming on the clouds to destroy is after all the wrath is poured out. It's God doing the wrath, you know, after He has returned and before he comes to destroy.
     
  3. Super Kal

    Super Kal Endurance is a journey

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    read the verses again, and stop taking one verse out of context to try and prove a man-made doctrine, for you still have not answered the question of the different kinds of wrath, nor have you explained how Revelation 6 and Revelation 20 explain the same event in different parts of the book... perhaps this book is not so linear as you once thought?...


    Tertullian, circa 210 AD, western, pre-Montanism
    When we read "go, my people, enter into your closets for a little season, until my anger passes away", we understand the closets to be graves in which will rest for a little while those who - at the end of the world - have departed this life in the last furious onset of the power of the Antichrist.
     
  4. LovedofHim

    LovedofHim Well-Known Member

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    You are going to have to be more specific. What part of Revelation 6 is talking about the same thing as Revelation 20?

    Gee, Isaiah or Tertullian, who, oh who, shall I trust? I'm gonna have to go with the prophet of God on this one.

    Paul described the same moment:
    1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
    1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
    4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  5. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

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    Jesus never mentioned a rapture, either in the Gospels or in the Revelation given to us directly by Jesus. It is a figment of Paul's immagination.

    And the second coming occured in 312AD, on Oct. 28th, when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds and Jesus came into power through the first Christian horseman/conqueror, who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
     
  6. LovedofHim

    LovedofHim Well-Known Member

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    Jesus certainly mentioned a resurrection of believers and a change to immortality of the dead and the living.


    John 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    Jesus certainly mentioned that he was going to the Father's House to prepare a place for us.


    John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    God, in the old testament, spoke of gathering his people after resurrection and prior to wrath:


    Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
    20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


    God, in the old testament, spoke of gathering his people when He comes:

    1The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

    2Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
    3Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
    4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. 5Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

    So, regardless of what you think of Paul, God Himself has spoken on the matter.
     
  7. Super Kal

    Super Kal Endurance is a journey

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    okay.

    Revelation 6:12-17
    12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
    13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale.
    14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
    15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
    16 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
    17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

    rev. 6:12-17 is the 6th seal... v.14 shows us a great earthquake that removes every mountain and island from it's place... now, lets go to Revelation 16:17-21, the seventh bowl of wrath:

    Rev. 16:17-21
    17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
    18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake.
    19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.
    20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found.
    21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

    the very same event is written about after the seventh bowl of wrath is poured out... which brings us to a simple conclusion: this book is not written in a linear form... this also leads us to more research and study: what type of "wrath" is God talking about when it comes to 1 Thess. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, Rev. 51:1 & 16:1, and Rev. 6:17?

    and what am I going to trust?: a brand new interpretation that was never before taught by anyone until the early 90's, or an interpretation that has not only historical, but biblical credibility?

    this is why you have to be mindful of apostolic doctrine, as 2 Thessalonians 2:15 states, and let no one deceive you, as 2 Thessalonians 2:3 states

    i ask you again, if pre-wrath was indeed biblical, then why was it hidden from the church for almost 2000 years, when Christ Himself said we've already been given everything we need to know?
     
  8. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    I don't think I have ever seen so many people disagreeing with each other at the same time, lol.

    I guess that's to be expected when coming to the largest Christian forum on the net. :p
     
  9. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    This passage of Isaiah teaches us many things, but I hardly think it supports a Dispensational Pre-Wrath rapture. There are many themes running back and forth in Isaiah. Be really careful not to rip things out of context. Some themes are specifically against Israel's sinfulness in the OT, some project hope forward for the return to the literal land, and some MAJOR work is done by Isaiah on the spiritual theme of Mount Zion and the New Jerusalem of a more eternal, universal nature. These are the sorts of themes the book of Hebrews picks up and translates into Christian theology as being all fulfilled in Jesus in eschatological tension; they're now, but they're not yet. We are NOW the priesthood of God on earth, but we are NOT YET a fully realised safe nation in God's new Heaven and New Earth.

    So one has to read an Old Testament passage in the context of the concerns of the book, and then 'zoom out' a little and ask what period of covenant history this falls in — pre exile or post exile — to try and get a sense of the general scope of the prophecies, and then zoom out and try and place the passage in the overall scheme of things from a whole bible sense. If it is OT, does it not need to be interpreted through the lens of the gospel? Do we not need to see how the NT interprets the main themes of the Old testament, the themes of Prophets, Priests, and Kings, and how Jesus is the ultimate Prophet Priest and King in each case?

    Do we not need to see that as our understanding of the leader changes, so does our understanding of the led? That is, we are not focussed on national Israel being led by an earthly prophet, an earthly priest caste, and an earthly King. We are the NEW Israel, and are right now living as God's people living God's way in God's land.

    This is what the whole bible is about, and why the mystery of the ages is all found and answered in Jesus.
     
  10. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

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    A resurrection yes. A rapture, no.
     
  11. Super Kal

    Super Kal Endurance is a journey

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    interpreter, you're under the impresssion of Pauline Christianity...

    ultimately, Paul and Christ both taught the same thing.
     
  12. B1inHim

    B1inHim LOVE one another

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    WOW it took everyone all that time to see that there is a difference between those in Rev 7 and those in Rev 20?

    That is fine with me, y'all believe what you want to and when the time comes for the opening of the 6th seal (which we will be here for) we will see what we will see.

    Just because a bible says something on the outside of the text, something about the "second coming" and the harpazo being the same thing, does not automatically make it so.

    The POST teaching is not clearly understood without a formula.

    By just reading the Revelation we can clearly see that after the opening of the 6th seal a Great Multitude shows up in heaven who came out of the Great Tribulation.
    All of this happens before chapter 8.

    The "second coming" happens all the way over in chapter 19.

    AND the "first resurrection" has a complete identity of those who are in that.
    They are listed right there in chapter 20.

    Pretty simple

    By His Love,
    Brother Jerry
     
  13. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    (Put's hand up)
    Pick me, pick me sir!

    I'm in that list as a Christian believer. I share in the 'first resurrection' from death to life, from the kingdom of darkness to light, from Satan's false kingdom to God's true kingdom. So that'll be me! And anyone else here who happens to believe the basic gospel. And while the actual focus of the passage is the safety of the martyrs in heaven, I take it the rest of us Christians also get to go there? ;)
     
  14. Super Kal

    Super Kal Endurance is a journey

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    what's sad, Jerry, is that you still hold to a pre-trib mind-set, and that somehow you're gonna be raptured away, even though the Jews weren't raptured away during the plagues of egypt...

    and i also see you sidestepped the fact that the pre-wrath doctrine didn't exist until the early 90's by two men exchanging emails... the exact same thing happened with pre-tribulation in the early 1800's...
     
  15. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

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    Victorinus' commentary on Revelation describes a 6th Seal rapture and the saints of Revelation chapter 7 as the raptured church. And it was written in 160 AD.
     
  16. B1inHim

    B1inHim LOVE one another

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    Let's look and see if that is what it say's;
    Rev. 20:4 (KJV)
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Let's look at a different bible and see...
    Rev. 20:4 (YLT)
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

    Maybe it is here...
    Rev. 20:4 (Dar)
    And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

    Let's try this one;
    Revelation 20 (Amplified Bible)

    4Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.


    Still looking...

    Revelation 20 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    Revelation 20

    4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. (F) also [saw] the souls (G) of those who had been beheaded [b] because of their testimony about Jesus (H) and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. (I) They came to life (J) and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed (K) and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death (L) has no power [c] over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years. (M)

    ONE MORE TIME;
    Revelation 20 (New Living Translation)

    Revelation 20

    The Thousand Years

    4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    Nope can't find what you are believing in, in the Word.

    Must be something that is a desire that can only be found in a teaching that uses a formula.

    BUT, there is an answer here, NO FORMULA NEEDED;
    Revelation 7 (New Living Translation)

    Revelation 7

    Praise from the Great Crowd

    9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 And they were shouting with a mighty shout, “Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
    and from the Lamb!”
    11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God. 12 They sang,
    “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
    and thanksgiving and honor
    and power and strength belong to our God
    forever and ever! Amen.”
    13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”
    14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”
    Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
    15 “That is why they stand in front of God’s throne
    and serve Him day and night in His Temple.
    And He who sits on the throne
    will give them shelter.
    16 They will never again be hungry or thirsty;
    they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.
    17 For the Lamb on the throne
    will be their Shepherd.
    He will lead them to springs of life-giving water.
    And God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”


    By His Love,
    Brother Jerry
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  17. B1inHim

    B1inHim LOVE one another

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    If you would, please post this information with references, I would like to see it please.
    Thanks
    By His Love,
    Brother Jerry
     
  18. Super Kal

    Super Kal Endurance is a journey

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    I've personally read his commentary on the Apocolypse... all fragments... and four your information, NJBeliever, if you actually read what Victorinus wrote (it's painfully and ridiculously obvious that you havent)... YOU WOULD FIND THAT VICTORINUS WAS AMILLENNIAL... NOT PRE-WRATH.

    if you want to read it for yourself, Jerry, here it is...
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.vi.ii.html

    early church eschatology was chiliastic, but not pre-wrath, nor pre-trib, nor mid-trib... it was post-trib.
    http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/018.pdf
     
  19. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

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    The Parousia



    Parousia :

    presence

    2) the coming, arrival, advent

    a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God


    This word used to describe the Second Coming of Christ, is uniformly used by Christ and His disciples or Apostles, the gifted men for the Church eph 4:


    10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    1 cor 12:

    28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    So their writings were for the body of Christ, the Church, and not to ethnic groups, though different ethnic groups [all men jew and gentile] comprise the Church, the body of Christ.

    So now the word Parousia is the same word used by Christ in what allegedly is limited to the jews also used by His Apostles who definitely we know wrote for The Church, the Body of Christ.

    Lets look at Matt 24 at the word vs 3:

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples [apostles] came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Now mind you , there are those who Teach this coming is limited to the ethnic jews at the end of the Great Tribulation !

    Now lets look at the word Parousia as the Apostles used it, those taught by Christ and were gifted men given for the edifying of the Body of Christ, the Church.

    Paul 1 cor 15:

    23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1 thess 4:

    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    5:

    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    James the Apostle use of the word James 5:

    7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

    8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    The Apostle Peter writes 2 pet 1:

    16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    3:

    4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    The apostle John 1 jn 2:

    28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    These are all uniformly speaking of the one and same Coming for the Body of Christ, the Church.

    And those teaching a Two part coming, do err from the scripture, for no where does the scripture teach that.
     
  20. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

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    Apostolic Teaching of the second coming !



    The Church was always instructed to expect the coming of the Lord and not some secret rapture. In Fact, in 1 st Thessalonians letter, each chapter ended with a reference to the second coming of Christ. Now the Thessalonians were part of the Church.

    1 thess chpt 1:

    9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

    10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    1 thess chpt 2:

    19For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

    1 thess chpt 3:

    13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    1 thess chpt 4:

    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 thess chpt 5:

    23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
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