Rapture & 2nd Coming - A Single Unified Event

[Lysimachus]

The Central focus of this topic is on two verses: Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. The purpose of this study is to prove that both of these verses are speaking of the same rapture event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

The Pre-Trib world tries to divide the Second Coming into "two" events. First, the rapture of the Church at the beginning of the "7 years tribulation", and then 7 years later Christ comes back "WITH" his Church saints to destroy the enemies of Israel and setup His earthly millennial kingdom in present-day Jerusalem (ahemm...yes, the old warn-torn down city ).

There is a big problem with this philosophy, however. Hebrews 9:28 says unequivocally, and unapologetically that Jesus will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb 9:28 )

Not two more times. Not three more times. But ONE more time. The "second time!"

As I'm sure some of you know, those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is referring to the "rapture", not the Second Coming. The problem, however, is that verse 15 calls it the "coming [parousia] of the Lord", and verse 16 clearly says the "Lord himself shall descend from heaven". Then verse 17 says that the resurrected dead and the living will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air". So where is the Lord? He's in the air. Not in heaven, but in the air.

Pre-Trib Rapture proponents want us to believe that Jesus will descend from heaven 2 more times. Not one more time. Hmm...>.<

It's a WHOLE lot more simple than that, really, as we shall now see:

All we have to do is compare 2 Thess 2:1,2 with Matthew 24:31.

Remember, Matthew 24:31 is the verse that is supposed to be the "second coming", not the rapture, according to Pre-Trib rapture proponents. What does Matthew 24:31 say?

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31)​

They place this event at the end of the 7 years, when the "Church saints come back with Christ". Uhhh...let's compare the above verse with what Paul tells the CHURCH!

"Now we beseech you, brethren [The CHURCH], by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (1 Thessalonians 2:1,2)​

Uhhh....did you just catch that? Whoa! Sounds like Paul is no doubt talking about the VERY same thing as Matthew!

The Pre-Trib Rapture, proponents, however, will try to convince us that Matthew 24:31 is not talking about any catching away into the clouds of heaven. Rather, they believe that Jesus is coming to "gather them in one place on the earth", not into the sky.

There is a big problem with this conclusion, however. Matthew, Mark, and Luke are known as the "synoptic gospels". They all talk about the "same thing".

How about we read Mark's account of Matthew 24:31? Shall we?

Here we go:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27)​

Now how about we analyze the Greek:

Understanding the Greek of Mark 13:27:
"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from [Gr: Ek, 'out of'] the four winds, from [Gr: Apo, 'away from'] the uttermost part of the earth to [Gr: Heos, 'until' 'as far as 'up to'] the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27 (same as account as Matthew 24:31, but with more details)​

Wow! Did you guys just catch on what's going on here? This verse alone completely destroys any last trace that the Second Coming and Catching Away into the clouds (rapture) are 2 separate events!

Dispensationalists say this event is describing the Second Coming, yet they completely fail to grasp that Mark 13:27 is clearly implying the "gathering together" of the Church into the clouds of heaven, just as 1 Thess 2:1,2 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 is. Mark's account along with the Greek CLEARLY implies that the Lord will gather his people out of the atmosphere after he has brought his people away from the earth up to or as far as the sky. These scriptures are not, in the remotest way, illustrating the return of Church saints with Christ at His glorious appearing. The word "Heos" (to) represents "going up" or "as far as" (See Luke 10:15, John 2:7; 2Cor 12:2; Heb 8:11).

Therefore, when Jesus comes the Second Time, where are the Church Saints that Paul was addressing "gathered to"?

They are gathered up into the sky (the heavens) at the revealing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven!

From there, we will be taken to heaven. Jesus clearly tells us that He is going to prepare a place in heaven for us, and he will receive us to take us there (John 14:2,3), and Revelation 19:1 concerning the future, John saw "much people in heaven, saying Alleluia".

Now let's think about this carefully. If the Rapture of ALL the saints from all ages takes place AT the Second Coming, and they are taken to heaven, what does the Bible say will happen to the wicked at the same time?

Go ahead now and read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:5.

Now I want you to notice something about this entire section.

1. The Righteous Dead Saints are resurrected

2. The Righteous Dead and Living Saints are caught up and gathered into the sky, where Jesus is, in the air, receiving them (imagine the earth turning, and vacuuming up all the saints into the clouds of heaven)

3. The wicked shall receive "sudden destruction" (5:3), and shall "not escape" (5:3)​

Paul in 1 Thess 4:15-5:5 is describing all the things that will happen in this SINGLE event!

So, if all the righteous are taken to heaven, and all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (see also 1 Thess 2:8) and receive “sudden destruction” and “not escape”, how many people does that leave on the earth during the millennium?

The simple math leaves 0, zilch! Jeremiah 4:23-28 tells us that there is no man left on the earth and all the cities are broken down at the presence of the Lord! It also tells us that the earth is left “desolate”, and the “heavens will be black”.

In All Peace that Passes Understanding,

~ Lysimachus

P.S. For those of you who are interested in evaluating this study on the Rapture and the Second Coming deeper, I invite you to evaluate the following Radio Audio Program as well as the accompanying PDF document:

Radio Program: The Rapture & Second Coming ~ by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris

Accompanying PDF Document: Christ's Second Coming ~ by D.S. Farris

 

[NJBeliever]

Remember, Matthew 24:31 is the verse that is supposed to be the "second coming", not the rapture, according to Pre-Trib rapture proponents. What does Matthew 24:31 say?

It says: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

.

It is this incorrect Premise that has caused so much error on the part of post trib and pre-trib adherents. This is NOT the Rapture or the Second Coming. It is the end times gathering of living Israelites to Israel as prophesied all throughout the Old Testament.

If you really compare this scripture above with the Biblical description of the Rapture and what this verse is describing it's not the same thing.

See this thread for an explanation

http://www.christianforums.com/t7524193/

Also so you know, in ancient Jewish culture the term "heaven" is used interchangeably with Earth when referring to extreme distances. It's done all throughout the Old Testament. God bless.

 

[Lysimachus]

You are ignoring Mark's account NJBeliever.

I showed you the Greek. Don't ignore that the Greek of Mark 13:27 CLEARLY proves that they are gathered up into the sky!

You may say Matthew 24:31 is not discussing the rapture, but Mark 13:27 is the EXACT same account, and the Greek in Mark's account is speaking the 1 Thessalonians 4 language!

 

[Lysimachus]

It is this incorrect Premise that has caused so much error on the part of post trib and pre-trib adherents. This is NOT the Rapture or the Second Coming. It is the end times gathering of living Israelites to Israel as prophesied all throughout the Old Testament.

Those Old Testament prophecies were Conditional Types of Unconditional Antytpes. Had Israel remained faithful, the "types" (in the detailed manners described the prophets Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, etc.) would have been fulfilled in an exact detail. But because Israel failed as a geopolitical nation to effectively administer the gospel commissioned to them to the world, those prophecies will no longer be fulfilled to literal Israel. Christ has now, and will continue to fulfill those Old Testament types "antitypically" to world-wide Spiritual Israel. The Church is the continuation of Israel.

All prophecies relating to literal, national Israel came to a permanent close in 34 A.D. at the stoning of Stephen..

The prophecies themselves have not failed. But types and antitypes are not identical, but are similar. John the Revelator derives elements from these Old Testament books, and redefines their fulfillments, in how they will be fulfilled on a global, world-wide scale, and applicable to the Church--God's Congregation, the true faithful Spiritual Israel that incorporates both Jews and Gentiles alike in a single, unified spiritual body of Saints.

 

[NJBeliever]

You are ignoring Mark's account NJBeliever.

I showed you the Greek. Don't ignore that the Greek of Mark 13:27 CLEARLY proves that they are gathered up into the sky!

You may say Matthew 24:31 is not discussing the rapture, but Mark 13:27 is the EXACT same account, and the Greek in Mark's account is speaking the 1 Thessalonians 4 language!

If you looked in the thread, you would see that the Greek is irrelevant. The description of the rapture that is given Biblically is not the same as the Gathering of Matthew 24. They are different events with different actors.

 

[Lysimachus]

So you are telling me that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are not the same account?

Please do tell me then, what event is Mark 13:27 describing? The Second Coming or the Rapture? And if Mark is discussing the Rapture and not the Second Coming, why did Mark completely fail to document the Second Coming?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So you are telling me that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are not the same account?

Please do tell me then, what event is Mark 13:27 describing? The Second Coming or the Rapture? And if Mark is discussing the Rapture and not the Second Coming, why did Mark completely fail to document the Second Coming?

Tis an interesting greek word. It has 2 prefix words before the root word #71.


I also find it interesting where the greek word #4863 is used in regards to armegeddon/gog-mog [which I view as one and the same event], and only 1 time outside of the Gospels and Acts, and that in 1 Corinthians......KEWL!

Young) 1 Corinthians 5:4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--ye being gathered together/sunacqentwn <4863> (5685), also my spirit--with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4863 matches the Greek &#963;&#965;&#957;&#8049;&#947;&#969; (synag&#333;), which occurs 73 times in 62 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Young) Matthew 24:31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together/epi-sun-axousin <1996> (5692) his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

Young) Mark 13:27 and then he shall send his messengers, and together-gathering/epi-sun-axei <1996> (5692) his chosen from the four winds, from the end of the earth unto the end of heaven.

1996. episunago ep-ee-soon-ag'-o from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place:--gather (together).
1909. epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.),
4863. sunago soon-ag'-o from 4862 and 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene;
4862. sun soon a primary preposition denoting union; with or together
71. ago ag'-o a primary verb; properly, to lead; by implication, to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specially) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce:--be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

 

[Super Kal]

If you looked in the thread, you would see that the Greek is irrelevant. The description of the rapture that is given Biblically is not the same as the Gathering of Matthew 24. They are different events with different actors.

uh, NJ, the Greek is EXTREMELY relevant... what language do you think the Ne Testament originated from?

an understanding of the Greek language help in understanding how the grammar of the Bible is used... we can't simply go by English because english grammar itself has many different words for some words when the Greek only has one... and vice versa, ie. love... we have one word for love: "love". The Greek has 3 different words: "agape", "eros", and "phileo".

this is why the Greek language is important... to understand the rudimentary basics.

 

[Lysimachus]

I think he meant the Greek is insignificant because according to Him, Mark 13:27 is not describing the same event (Second Coming) as Matthew 24:31. In other words, the Greek would be "significant only if these 2 verses were describing the same event". I could be wrong in what he's thinking, but that's just what I gathered.

Regardless, understanding the Greek is almost certainly essential for core doctrinal teachings. But it is not essential for salvation. The Bible in English is enough to bring someone to the foot of the Cross.

 

[Lysimachus]

LittleLambofJesus,

Thanks for sharing that information on the Greek. What are your thoughts on the 2 different words translated as "from"?

Side note:

I tried sending you a PM, but it said your Inbox is full, so I couldn't send it. Please let me know when you clear some space so I can resend it. Blessings! =]

 

[Super Kal]

I think he meant the Greek is insignificant because according to Him, Mark 13:27 is not describing the same event (Second Coming) as Matthew 24:31. In other words, the Greek would be "significant only if these 2 verses were describing the same event". I could be wrong in what he's thinking, but that's just what I gathered.

Regardless, understanding the Greek is almost certainly essential for core doctrinal teachings. But it is not essential for salvation. The Bible in English is enough to bring someone to the foot of the Cross.

i completely agree with everything you just said

 

[eclipsenow]

The Central focus of this topic is on two verses: Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. The purpose of this study is to prove that both of these verses are speaking of the same rapture event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

The Pre-Trib world tries to divide the Second Coming into "two" events. First, the rapture of the Church at the beginning of the "7 years tribulation", and then 7 years later Christ comes back "WITH" his Church saints to destroy the enemies of Israel and setup His earthly millennial kingdom in present-day Jerusalem (ahemm...yes, the old warn-torn down city ).

There is a big problem with this philosophy, however. Hebrews 9:28 says unequivocally, and unapologetically that Jesus will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb 9:28 )

Not two more times. Not three more times. But ONE more time. The "second time!"

As I'm sure some of you know, those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is referring to the "rapture", not the Second Coming. The problem, however, is that verse 15 calls it the "coming [parousia] of the Lord", and verse 16 clearly says the "Lord himself shall descend from heaven". Then verse 17 says that the resurrected dead and the living will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air". So where is the Lord? He's in the air. Not in heaven, but in the air.

Pre-Trib Rapture proponents want us to believe that Jesus will descend from heaven 2 more times. Not one more time. Hmm...>.<

It's a WHOLE lot more simple than that, really, as we shall now see:

All we have to do is compare 2 Thess 2:1,2 with Matthew 24:31.

Remember, Matthew 24:31 is the verse that is supposed to be the "second coming", not the rapture, according to Pre-Trib rapture proponents. What does Matthew 24:31 say?

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31)​

They place this event at the end of the 7 years, when the "Church saints come back with Christ". Uhhh...let's compare the above verse with what Paul tells the CHURCH!

"Now we beseech you, brethren [The CHURCH], by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (1 Thessalonians 2:1,2)​

Uhhh....did you just catch that? Whoa! Sounds like Paul is no doubt talking about the VERY same thing as Matthew!

The Pre-Trib Rapture, proponents, however, will try to convince us that Matthew 24:31 is not talking about any catching away into the clouds of heaven. Rather, they believe that Jesus is coming to "gather them in one place on the earth", not into the sky.

There is a big problem with this conclusion, however. Matthew, Mark, and Luke are known as the "synoptic gospels". They all talk about the "same thing".

How about we read Mark's account of Matthew 24:31? Shall we?

Here we go:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27)​

Now how about we analyze the Greek:

Understanding the Greek of Mark 13:27:
"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from [Gr: Ek, 'out of'] the four winds, from [Gr: Apo, 'away from'] the uttermost part of the earth to [Gr: Heos, 'until' 'as far as 'up to'] the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27 (same as account as Matthew 24:31, but with more details)​

Wow! Did you guys just catch on what's going on here? This verse alone completely destroys any last trace that the Second Coming and Catching Away into the clouds (rapture) are 2 separate events!

Dispensationalists say this event is describing the Second Coming, yet they completely fail to grasp that Mark 13:27 is clearly implying the "gathering together" of the Church into the clouds of heaven, just as 1 Thess 2;1,2 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 is. Mark's account along with the Greek CLEARLY implies that the Lord will gather his people out of the atmosphere after he has brought his people away from the earth up to or as far as the sky. These scriptures are not, in the remotest way, illustrating the return of Church saints with Christ at His glorious appearing. The word "Heos" (to) represents "going up" or "as far as" (See Luke 10:15, John 2:7; 2Cor 12:2; Heb 8:11).

Therefore, when Jesus comes the Second Time, where are the Church Saints that Paul was addressing "gathered to"?

They are gathered up into the sky (the heavens) at the revealing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven!

From there, we will be taken to heaven. Jesus clearly tells us that He is going to prepare a place in heaven for us, and he will receive us to take us there (John 14:2,3), and Revelation 19:1 concerning the future, John saw "much people in heaven, saying Alleluia".

Now let's think about this carefully. If the Rapture of ALL the saints from all ages takes place AT the Second Coming, and they are taken to heaven, what does the Bible say will happen to the wicked at the same time?

Go ahead now and read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:5.

Now I want you to notice something about this entire section.

1. The Righteous Dead Saints are resurrected

2. The Righteous Dead and Living Saints are caught up and gathered into the sky, where Jesus is, in the air, receiving them (imagine the earth turning, and vacuuming up all the saints into the clouds of heaven)

3. The wicked shall receive "sudden destruction" (5:3), and shall "not escape" (5:3)​

Paul in 1 Thess 4:15-5:5 is describing all the things that will happen in this SINGLE event!

So, if all the righteous are taken to heaven, and all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (see also 1 Thess 2:8) and receive &#8220;sudden destruction&#8221; and &#8220;not escape&#8221;, how many people does that leave on the earth during the millennium?

The simple math leaves 0, zilch! Jeremiah 4:23-28 tells us that there is no man left on the earth and all the cities are broken down at the presence of the Lord! It also tells us that the earth is left &#8220;desolate&#8221;, and the &#8220;heavens will be black&#8221;.

In All Peace that Passes Understanding,

~ Lysimachus

P.S. For those of you who are interested in evaluating this study on the Rapture and the Second Coming deeper, I invite you to evaluate the following Radio Audio Program as well as the accompanying PDF document:

Radio Program: The Rapture & Second Coming ~ by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris

Accompanying PDF Document: Christ's Second Coming ~ by D.S. Farris

Awesome work. Then when we add all the other verses from the NT and read the CLEAR text of Scripture first, and then move onto the unclear symbolism, we're home and hosed. It's all the one day.

Otherwise, the literal Millennialists have to go back and edit the rest of the NT something like this.

John 5
28 &#8220;Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out&#8212;those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise 1000 years later to be condemned.

Matthew 25
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and 1000 years later the goats on his left.

Matthew 13:24
"First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned 1000 years later; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

 

[Lysimachus]

Thanks eclipsenow.

Although I'm not sure I am able to agree with you on the 1000 years, because I do believe in a future 1000 year millennium.

The only difference is, my eschatological view is VASTLY different from most pre-millennialists.

Take note to this unique concept:

1. At the Second Coming, ALL the saints that have ever lived are raptured (dead are resurrected and living are transformed--all are caught up into the clouds).

2. All the saints reign with Christ in heaven, in the New Jerusalem for 1000 years.

3. All the remaining wicked that were alive when Jesus comes get destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

4. The earth is left void, and 100% desolate for 1000 years, while the Saints reign with Christ in heaven, in the New Jerusalem, for 1000 years.

5. Satan is bound to this desolate earth with no one to tempt or manipulate. All his demons are also trapped on this earth. The heavens have no light. There is no man. For 1000 years, Satan gets his vacation trapped on this desolate, destroyed planet, with absolutely nothing to do but behold the consequences of his action. He gets what he wants alright...he wanted to destroy the world, so now he gets to roam a destroyed earth for 1000 years.

6. At the end of the 1000 years, all the saints return to the earth with Christ and the New Jerusalem. Christ sets his feet on the Mount of Olives, and a great plain is created where the New Jerusalem will settle.

7. All the wicked that were dead during the 1000 years are resurrected to face the "second death". To die a second times means you died once before. These resurrected "dead" are the resurrected nations that Satan goes out to deceive, in convincing them that they have a chance against the Celestial, Beloved City...the New Jerusalem. All the saints will be safe inside the city.

8. After Satan and all the wicked hosts surround the city, to make a long story short, fire comes down from heaven and destroys them, and the Lake of Fire covers and purifies the entire surface of the earth. After the fire has done its work, God will remove it, and recreate the entire New Earth before our eyes.

That's just an extremely condensed version. As you can see, my view is COMPLETELY opposed to the traditional pre-millennial view. I do not believe in an earthly reign during the 1000 years, rather, a heavenly. At the end of the 1000 years will be a Third Coming...but not for salvation. Rather, to hold the judgment of the wicked, and reveal to every wicked person exactly why they were lost.

If you are resurrected at the first resurrection, it means you are saved. If you are resurrected at the Second Resurrection, it means you are lost, because now you will face the "second death".

Every person that is lost will face the "second death". They died the first death either before the Second Coming (by either natural causes, old age, or an accident), and wont' be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years, or they will be destroyed by the Brightness of His Coming when they call the rocks to fall down on them.

Then they will resurrect at the END of the millennium to face the "second death".

 

[eclipsenow]

7. All the wicked that were dead during the 1000 years are resurrected to face the "second death". To die a second times means you died once before. These resurrected "dead" are the resurrected nations that Satan goes out to deceive, in convincing them that they have a chance against the Celestial, Beloved City...the New Jerusalem. All the saints will be safe inside the city.

Well, at least you're acknowledging Rev 20 is about Saints reigning from heaven. But what about John 5? Surely we don't want scripture to contradict scripture?

 

[NJBeliever]

I think he meant the Greek is insignificant because according to Him, Mark 13:27 is not describing the same event (Second Coming) as Matthew 24:31. In other words, the Greek would be "significant only if these 2 verses were describing the same event". I could be wrong in what he's thinking, but that's just what I gathered.

Regardless, understanding the Greek is almost certainly essential for core doctrinal teachings. But it is not essential for salvation. The Bible in English is enough to bring someone to the foot of the Cross.

Once again, you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that NEITHER Mark 13:27 or Matthew 24:31 are describing the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the rapture. If you look at the description compared to the above two passages that you are using as "rock solid proof" of your theory, they are not the same. Similarity does not equal sameness. For all this talk of "looking closely at the text" you and Super Kal are not doing that. The Gathering of Matthew 24 is being done by different actors and in a completely different fashion than the rapture.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the actor in the rapture, not His angels. He does not send anyone. He GOES HIMSELF. The text, in English or Greek is 100% clear on this. Similarly, your passages mention nothing about being in the air or the clouds for a meeting with Jesus, which is what the Rapture is. And you ignore all of the Old Testatment prophecies of the Mark 13 and Matthew 24 gatherings which clearly say the gathering is to ISRAEL and not to the clouds. This is not the same as what is being described in your two proof text passages from Mark and Matthew. Look closely at the text and it's quite obvious. God bless.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Once again, you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that NEITHER Mark 13:27 or Matthew 24:31 are describing the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the rapture. If you look at the description compared to the above two passages that you are using as "rock solid proof" of your theory, they are not the same. Similarity does not equal sameness. For all this talk of "looking closely at the text" you and Super Kal are not doing that. The Gathering of Matthew 24 is being done by different actors and in a completely different fashion than the rapture.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the actor in the rapture, not His angels. He does not send anyone. He GOES HIMSELF. The text, in English or Greek is 100% clear on this. Similarly, your passages mention nothing about being in the air or the clouds for a meeting with Jesus, which is what the Rapture is. And you ignore all of the Old Testatment prophecies of the Mark 13 and Matthew 24 gatherings which clearly say the gathering is to ISRAEL and not to the clouds. This is not the same as what is being described in your two proof text passages from Mark and Matthew. Look closely at the text and it's quite obvious. God bless.

Where does the "rapture" of those 2 witnesses fit in?

Reve 14:14 And I saw and behold! a white cloud and upon the cloud one sitting like-as Son of Man, having upon the head of Him a crown of gold and in the hand of him a sickle, keen

Reve 11:12 And they heard a voice great out of the heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
and they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and observed them the enemies of them.

Matt 26:64 Jesus Is saying to him "thou say, moreover I am saying to ye, from present/now ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of rights of the power and coming upon the clouds of the heaven".
[Reve 1:7/6:16]

Revelation 1:7 Behold! He is coming with the clouds and shall be seeing Him every eye.........
[Jeremiah 4:13/Matt 24:30/26:64

 

[LovedofHim]

The Central focus of this topic is on two verses: Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. The purpose of this study is to prove that both of these verses are speaking of the same rapture event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

The Pre-Trib world tries to divide the Second Coming into "two" events. First, the rapture of the Church at the beginning of the "7 years tribulation", and then 7 years later Christ comes back "WITH" his Church saints to destroy the enemies of Israel and setup His earthly millennial kingdom in present-day Jerusalem (ahemm...yes, the old warn-torn down city ).

There is a big problem with this philosophy, however. Hebrews 9:28 says unequivocally, and unapologetically that Jesus will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb 9:28 )

Not two more times. Not three more times. But ONE more time. The "second time!"

Yes, one more time.

And what does Jesus do before He comes on the clouds to destroy the beast and the army formed against Him?

1. Removes the church
2. Casts down the devil to the earth
3. Destroys gog
4. Sends the two witnesses for 42 months
5. Allows the antichrist 42 months
6. Uses the devil to destroy mystery babylon
7. Pours out wrath in the form of the events of the trumpets and bowls

So when do you think the return of the Lord begins?


Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[zeke37]

So you are telling me that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are not the same account?

they'll tell you all kinds of cooooooky things

of course they are the same Bro
and yes, they are speaking of the same gathering to Christ
as seen in and taught about in 1Thes4/2Thes2/1Cor15

Please do tell me then, what event is Mark 13:27 describing? The Second Coming or the Rapture?

lol, both happen at the same time....the gathering to Christ
don't let 'em get to ya...
stick with the truth

And if Mark is discussing the Rapture and not the Second Coming, why did Mark completely fail to document the Second Coming?

since they are the same, he describes them both....

in 1Thes4, the dead believers come with Christ...
and we who are alive are all gathered to Christ, together...one collective....

in Mar13, same thing...

the elect are gathered from the uttermost parts of heaven
(that's the dead believers in heaven that come with Him)

andfrom the uttermost parts of the earth
(that is we who are alive and remain until His Coming)




you're OK, stick with the truth...you got it....
(i am speaking of His Coming)

don't let "them" tickle your ears.


ps. i disagree with you on some points...however, they are secondary to the "timing" issue


Zec14...Christ is coming here...setting up shop here
Rev14....same thing...Christ here, gathered ones here
Rev5...the ones that reign with Him, do so from earth...not from heaven

 

[B1inHim]

The rapture/harpazo and the “SECOND COMING” are two entirely different events.

Revelation 14: The Harvest of the Earth
14Then I saw the Son of Man sitting on a white cloud. He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
15Then an angel came from the Temple and called out in a loud voice to the one sitting on the cloud, “Use the sickle, for the time has come for you to harvest; the crop is ripe on the earth.” 16So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

It is clear that the “cloud” is not a mere coincidence when we look at what Apostle Paul wrote to us concerning the “harpazo”.
1 Thes. 4:16-17 (KJV)
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As we can clearly see, the harvest takes place from a cloud in Revelation 14:14 and the ending place that the “harpazoed” go to in 1 Thes. 4:17 is the clouds.
Simple math…

In the rapture/harpazo the Lord does NOT touch this planet bodily. There is no scripture to prove differently.

HOWEVER, in the “SECOND COMING” the Lord actually touches this planet as seen here;

Zechariah 14:1Watch, for the day of the Lord is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you! 2On that day I will gather all the nations to fight against Jerusalem. The city will be taken, the houses plundered, and the women raped. Half the population will be taken away into captivity, and half will be left among the ruins of the city.
3Then the Lord will go out to fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past. 4On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west, for half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

This is the second coming.
We can also read about this here as well;
Revelation 19: The Rider on the White Horse
11Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. And the one sitting on the horse was named Faithful and True. For he judges fairly and then goes to war. 12His eyes were bright like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him, and only he knew what it meant. 13He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven, dressed in pure white linen, followed him on white horses. 15From his mouth came a sharp sword, and with it he struck down the nations. He ruled them with an iron rod, and he trod the winepress of the fierce wrath of almighty God. 16On his robe and thigh was written this title: King of kings and Lord of lords.

AND very most likely this is the “Second Coming” as well;
Revelation 14: 17After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18Then another angel, who has power to destroy the world with fire, shouted to the angel with the sickle, “Use your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are fully ripe for judgment.” 19So the angel swung his sickle on the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20And the grapes were trodden in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

There will be some here who will try to testify that the scriptures of Revelation 14:14-16 is talking about the "blessed" spoken of in the verse directly before verse 14, this is pure conjecture, speculation and opinion.
Chapter 14 of Revelation is broken into THREE different portions;
#1 The Lamb and the 144,000
verses 1-5

#2 The Three Angels message
verses 6-13

#3 The Harvest of the Earth
3a verses 14-16
3b verses 17-20



The rapture/harpazo and the “SECOND COMING” are NOT the same event.

By His love,
Brother Jerry

 

[eclipsenow]

Once again, you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that NEITHER Mark 13:27 or Matthew 24:31 are describing the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the rapture.

A pre-trib 'rapture' is just one of many silly offshoots developed by Darby in the 1830's. The church somehow remained ignorant of a 'rapture' for believers for all 1800 years prior to this. Talk about re-reading the bible! For more evidence, see the wiki.

While some early church fathers were Premils, NONE of them taught Dispensationalism or a Rapture. They were all 'Covenant' theology. The whole bible points to Jesus as the Messiah and saviour of the true Kingdom of God which is the church, both Jew and Gentile believers, and there is no more 'plan' for the Jews since the destruction of the temple.

Sorry mate, but it's just a historic fact.