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Rapture & 2nd Coming - A Single Unified Event

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Lysimachus, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. POSTIOS

    POSTIOS zeke37

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    beautiful.
    that squashes pre trib completely.
    The same book that they hold to as the great pre trib book, is itself provng post trib. I love it.

    the Coming of the Lord in 1Thes, includes His Saints coming with Him.

    I love it.

    1Thes3:13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    Now, you pre tribbers will say what to this.
     
  2. Truth Files

    Truth Files Guest

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    The Lord's coming visitation is a one time event

    He will first immortalize today's church as promised [both those asleep and those living at the time] [1Corinthians 15:22-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10]

    He will then proceed to bring His unmitigated judgment of 2550 days against an intransigent and unbelieving world [Revelation 6:12-17; chapters 8 thru 19]

    This period of tribulation will include the killing of billions, the martyrdom of those who will become believers during the period, the destruction of satan's beast and his kingdom of followers, and the resurrection of the tribulation saints added to the pre-tribulation church [these will rule with Him over His coming millennial kingdom of mortals on the earth]

    Just after He will appear to the mortal survivors and will gather and separate them .... those found believing will enter His millennial kingdom on the earth .... those found in unbelief will be rejected [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]
     
  3. chalkstc

    chalkstc Newbie

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    Hi TF,

    You have everything right except the pretrib thingy. The very texts you quoted are about the resurrection of the church at the one and only SC after the trib of those days.

    There is no partial bride and then a completed bride 3 1/2 years later. One body, One Lord and one resurrection for the just on the last day at the end of the age at the last trump.....................all happens "immediately AFTER the trib of those days.

    The very same term perousia that is used in Mat 24 about the SC is the same term used in 1 TH 4...............................

    It's paraphrased meaning is "physical presence with the One who is Coming,"

    There are other terms used for the coming, such as appearing and revealing (apocalupso) and phaneero and all these also are about the SC. Thus, there is no text for an additional or secret coming only for the saints.

    He appears the second time.....................no third or intermediate comings are stated anywhere except by force fitting something that is not there.

    I've been where you are now and it was the hardest thing to alter my view. But the Word has a way of doing that. I would hope it would happen to you and others here that still cling to a doctrine unproven by the Word of God.

    Blessings in your studies,
    Frankie
     
  4. Truth Files

    Truth Files Guest

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    You need to go back to where you were and then continue to perfect your understanding in my opinion

    Regarding the pre-tribulation church, and those who will become believes during the coming tribulation .... there is a difference

    Those martyrs of the tribulation must wait until the end of it for their eternal bodies

    Those of today's church will be transformed before and kept from it ..... no waiting

    Revelation 20:4 differentiates between those on thrones [the pre-tribulation church] ..... and those martyred during the tribulation period

    Any believing mortal survivors of the tribulation period will be gathered just after for entering the Lord's coming millennial kingdom .... as mortals [no resurrection for them]

    If all believers are to be immortalized at the end of the tribulation period as PT teaches, there would be no believing mortals left to enter and populate His kingdom on the earth .... there will be
    [Isaiah 11; Ezekiel 36; Micah 4; Micah 5; Joel 3; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20:3; 20:7-9]

    And it is the pre-tribulation church and those martyrs who are added of the tribulation period who will rule with Him over an earthy kingdom of mortals
     
  5. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    Thank you Frankie for sharing this. Great post! Tell it like it is....Christ's Second Coming will be a one-time event where every eye shall see him.

    The only difference I have with most post-tribbers is concerning the nature of the Second Coming. Not sure how much you've looked into it (there is a huge study I've put together on this, but I have not had the chance yet to post it here....would you like to see it sometime? It's about the Millennium), but I believe that at Christ's Second Coming, every righteous saint, from Adam, to the last righteous man alive will be caught up into the clouds of heaven. While the Glory of Christ receives His Saints in the clouds, it will be as a consuming fire to the wicked. Therefore, all the remaining wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Second Coming, while all the saints are taken up into the clouds.

    From there, all the saints spend 1000 years in heaven, in the New Jerusalem, while the earth remains desolate, in a chaotic state---where Satan inhabits this earth with no one to tempt for 1000 years. He will bask in the consequences of his actions.

    [​IMG]

    It is not until the END of the 1000 years that all the Saints return with Christ and the New Jerusalem. This is not the "Second Coming". This is not a coming "for salvation". It's simply to return to the earth, hold the judgment of the wicked, and for God to renew the earth. Christ's feet are placed on the Mount of Olives, and a great plain is made. This is where the New Jerusalem will come to rest. Measurements on the Mount of Olives area show the size is perfect to accommodate for the size of the New Jerusalem.

    All the wicked that were dead during the 1000 years suddenly resurrect. Suddenly Satan is "loosed" from his chain of circumstances---he goes out to deceive the wicked, and convince them into thinking that he is the good guy, and all those in the Beloved City (New Jerusalem that came down out of heaven) are the "bad guys". He deceive them into thinking they have a chance against the city. It is these "resurrected nations" that are "Gog and Magog". After surrounding the City, the Great White Throne Judgment ensues. The books are opened, and the dead stand before God. Every single wicked person and evil angel sees exactly why they are lost. Then fire comes down out of heaven devouring the wicked, and forming the Great Lake of Fire that envelops the entire face of the planet, except where the New Jerusalem is resting--on the Mount of Olives.

    Keep in mind that every wicked person that is thrown into the lake of fire receives the "second death". It means they died once before (before or during the Second Coming), and will die the second time. So if you die in Christ, you will come up in the First Resurrection (at the Second Coming), but if you die without Christ, you will come up in the Second Resurrection at the end of the 1000 years to face the "second death". Oh may we all be part of the "first resurrection"! These will be "blessed"!

    Then God recreates the earth, and the saints get to witness it. The saints then inherit the new earth, and reign with Christ on earth for ever and ever. :)
     
  6. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

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    Dont worry, Many will ignore these scriptures or put a twist on them..but its good you see the Truth of them..
     
  7. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    I'm confused. I thought that the fact that Christ will come with all His Saints at the Second Coming is actually used as "proof" by pretribulationalists that the saints had to have been raptured prior to the tribulation in order to come back with Christ at the Second Coming. So if you believe in post-trib, what is your point in citing 1 Thess 3:13?
     
  8. POSTIOS

    POSTIOS zeke37

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    Well, that is the point.

    my point, and Beloved57's point was that the definition for His Coming, in 1Thes, includes the Saints.

    most pre tribbers believe that THEY are the Saints that return with Christ for His actual Coming, 7 years (or so) later than this Coming mentioned in 1Thes.

    Did I explain that right?

    IOW, the Saints that come with Christ in 1Thes4, are the dead in Christ.

    BUT, When you ask a pre tribber, they say they are the Saints that come with Christ at His Coming.

    it is a pre trib oxymoron.



    1Thes3:13 and 1Thes4:15 speak of the exact same Coming of the Lord.
     
  9. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    I see. :) Yes, said that right. I would agree with you that there are no pre-trib rapture saints coming at the Second Coming.

    However, allow me to paint 1 Thessalonians 3:13 from a different perspective. How about it?

    I look forward to your feedback. I will post it in my next post. :)

    Stay tuned....
     
  10. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    The basis on which Dispensationalists use Jude 14 to prove that this event ("second coming") occurs only after a pre-trib rapture is that it says "the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (Jude 14). But this does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture. How so? The assumption is that the word "saints" here always means the "redeemed". But it can very well mean "angels". If it were always to mean the "redeemed", then one would have to conclude that when the Lord descended on Mount Sinai, he descended with ten thousands of those who were raptured before the Israelites reached Mount Sinai:

    "And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deut 33:2) (Compare with Psalms 68:17 where it says these were angels that came down with the Lord on Mount Sinai)

    Revelation 5:11 calls them "angels": "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands."

    Notice how the number "ten thousands" is usually employed for "angels".

    Paul also uses this same terminology concerning the Second Coming:

    Notice he's talking to the Church:
    "And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, AT the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." (1 Thess 3:12,13)

    Paul is clearly WARNING the believers that they will be READY, establishing their hearts UNBLAMEABLE before God AT the coming of the Lord with ALL his saints. The Greek word for "saints" simply means "holy ones". It can also mean angels. Daniel 8:13 calls angels "saints". In fact, it says that two saints were talking to one another describing the vision.

    The message here is...."get ready, and do what is right...purify yourselves now so that you may be clean and blameless when the Lord appears in the clouds with all his angels". That is the message here!

    And FINALLY, even if the word "saints" here did mean the "redeemed", it still doesn't prove anything. Why so? Because those redeemed saints that DO return with Christ at the Second Coming would be those that Christ took to heaven at His resurrection when He came out of the tomb!

    "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." (Psalms 68:18)

    Paul quotes this in Ephesians 4:8:

    "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." (Ephesians 4:8 )

    Who are these people that ascended up to heaven with Christ at His resurrection?

    Answer:

    "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matthew 27:52,53)

    These saints that went to heaven went to heaven in BODILY FORM! Not disembodied souls or spirits. Moses also was resurrected in bodily form, and that's why Michael and Satan "contended over the body of Moses" (Jude 1:9). Enoch was translated (went to heaven without tasting death...was changed into a new body). Elijah also went to heaven without tasting death, and was changed into his new body.

    So when Christ comes back the Second Time, He will not be returning with pre-tribulation rapture saints, but He will be returning with saints who were taken to heaven upon His ascension, in addition to Moses, Elijah, and Enoch (who went to heaven in bodily form)!!!

    So this idea of "saints" coming back with Christ proves nothing in favor of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. Nothing!

    Saints can mean angels or the redeemed. But if these saints do include any redeemed, as I have just shown, there were thousands who were resurrected in bodily form and went to heaven with Christ at His ascension. These saints will most likely be returning with Christ at the Second Coming. :)
     
  11. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    How da ya like that? :)
     
  12. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

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    lys:

    Yes, but the scripture says nothing about them being in their Glorified bodies. Also it was only many and not all. And what is your point ? What does this have to do with the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation ?
     
  13. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

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    The book of Jude was surely a book written to the Church of Christ Jude 1:

    Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:


    2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
    3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Now, these believers were not told anything about a secret rapture, but that they should expect if anything the Second Coming of the Lord with Judgment !

    Jude 1:

    14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
     
  14. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    Ever since I know, orthodox understanding of Matthew 27:53,54 has been that these Old Testament saints were resurrected in bodily form. It mentions that "many bodies" came out of their "graves", and "appeared to many". Are you suggesting that they went to heaven with Christ without their bodies? It's possible to be in heaven in an earthly body and not glorified body? Hmm...

    The point of this whole argument is that Pre-tribulationalists use Jude 14 and 1 Thess 3:13 to show that at the Second Coming, the saints return with Christ--meaning, they must have been raptured before the Second Coming.

    My argument is that these "saints" mentioned in 1 Thess 3:13 and Jude 14 may very likely be angels, and they may very well include redeemed saints as well, because Enoch, Elijah, and Moses went to heaven long ago, and those resurrected at Christ's resurrection went to heaven with Him at His ascension. So when Christ comes back at the end of the tribulation, any saints that do return won't be pre-tribulation raptured saints. They will be many Old Testament saints.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011
  15. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    I agree that these were written to the Church. But what is your point?

    They will be preserved, meaning, preserved "blameless". But they are not preserved in heaven. This is an admonition so that we might be READY spiritually to meet our Maker at the Second Coming!

    But the saints that come back with Christ surely aren't the Church Saints for which the letters are being written to. As I have shown, they can mean either angels or redeemed saints that were taken to heaven at Christ's ascension.
     
  16. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    Oh wait, beloved57, are you a pre-tribber, or a post-tribber? I'm writing to you thinking you are a pre-tribber.

    If you are a post-tribber, I'm not sure what problem you are having with what I'm saying!
     
  17. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you right, I jumped the gun on you. After I reread what you were saying, I see we agree on many things.
     
  18. beloved57

    beloved57 Well-Known Member

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    lysi:

    I think as stated already that we agree more so than disagree. However back to these who resurrected in Matt 27. Yes they may have temporarily been in bodies for that specific purpose of showing themselves, but, I believe once in heaven they became Just bodiless Spirits as described here Heb 12:

    23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Its God's design that all the Church of God, OT and NT be all Glorified together Heb 11:

    39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    40God having provided some better thing for us, that they[OT Saints] without us[NT Saints] should not be made perfect.

    Now let me comment on vs heb 12 23 further, it does say there Just men made perfect, but that pertains only to their state now in heaven as opposed to still being in the flesh. So in a sense those now in heaven are in a perfect state at home with the Lord, but they still must wait the redemption of their bodies at the resurrection and Second Coming..
     
  19. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    Thank you beloved57 for clarifying.

    Yes, it does look like you and I have much in common concerning eschatology and the Second Coming.

    Upon careful analysis, our little clash was an inevitable result that I do not believe in the immortality of the soul. I believe that the dead are dead, and their next conscious thought is the resurrection.

    Whether someone goes to heaven immediately at death, or whether they are resurrected at the Second Time, matters not to the individual itself. Because to a dead person, there is no consciousness of time. For example, I believe that if a saint were to die today, and Christ were to come tomorrow, the time between death and the resurrection would feel no different for a saint who died, say, 4,000 years ago.

    It's like "blinking your eyes"...close eyes, open eyes! So to a dead person, the very next thing is to be "present with the Lord". As there is no consciousness of time in death. So although in reality, they are sleeping in their graves, to the dead person, it matters not, as it feels to them as if the resurrection is the very next thing.

    I have written much on the state of the dead, and I believe that the Bible is clear that all saints (except for special OT saints) that have ever died, are sleeping in their graves. I have not found a trace of evidence in support of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Not even Martin Luther or William Tyndale believed it.

    Allow me to kindly explain to you my interpretation of the texts you cited in Hebrews:

    The allusion to "the spirits of just men made perfect" in no way is implying that these spirits are "conscientious" in any form. Scriptures allude to the judgment of the living and the dead in places like Acts 10:42; 2 Tim 4:1; Hebrews 9:27. Hebrews 12:23 is in perfectly alignment with this.

    The spirits, however, that went back to God, only went back to God in a sense of "going on record" for the judgment. But they have no consciousness whatsoever. It is simply an allusion to conceptualize the fact that their names are written in the book of lie. The moment a person dies, they cease to exist, and their spirit "life" goes back to God who gave it.

    Scriptures teach that the spirits of all men go back to God, including the wicked. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecc 12:7)

    There are 2 important things to note concerning this passage:

    1. This is in reference to the spirits of all men, including the wicked. Are we to conclude that wicked people are in heaven?

    2. The fact that the spirit returns to God who gave it at death, proves that God had that "spirit" (or life) before. Are we to conclude that Adam was in heaven in spirit form trekking through space, until one day God decided to breathe Adam into a body, trapping him?

    I believe these notions are too ridiculous to be entertained. The Greek and Hebrew words for "spirit" can be translated to simply mean "breath" or "life". The spirits that have been made perfect in heaven simply mean that God has their names written in the book of life so that they will come up in the resurrection.

    Now I'm going to provide you some irrefutable proof that the spirits of wicked people are in heaven too:

    Beginning with Ecclesiastes 3:16-18, we see that the subject is concerning the righteous AND the wicked. So I recommend opening your Bible and reading these preceding texts before we continue below with verses 19-21:

    "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth UPWARD, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)

    We see that the spirits of every man go upward, EVEN in the Old Testament! But the spirits of animals go "downward".

    What does this mean? It is metaphorical language to represent the fact that animals have no salvation, and their is no record for the soul of an animal. But at death of a man, their lives go on record to be held in the judgment. This is because every single person who has died will come up in either the first resurrection (Second Coming), or the second resurrection to face the "second death".

    So the metaphorical language of "spirit" does not mean, in any way shape or form, that they are conscientious floating entities who can think, see, and move around. No. That "spirit" is God's again. It is creation in reverse. The "life" (spirit) is now God's, and it will not come back into conscientious existence until He breathes that computer program right back into a functioning brain. :)

    That is how God made us. In HIS image. :)

    I believe these spirits made perfect simply means that they died in Christ, and will be resurrected in the Lord to be caught up in the clouds of heaven. They have been judged, their lives are retained in the book of life. But as I have shown, even the spirits of wicked men go up to heaven. And we know certainly that wicked people are not enjoying heaven, lol.

    So what Christians need to do is reprogram their minds in how they are interpreting this "spirit" thing concerning heaven.
     
  20. POSTIOS

    POSTIOS zeke37

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    well stated.:thumbsup:

    I think that they were the very recent dead,
    like Lazarus and the others raised by Christ before this.
    Recent enough to be recognized by the local population, as being dead and now walking around.

    Ya, I believe the dead are concious.

    Immortality of the soul is not the question, is it?
    Whether one is concious or not between death and resurrection, is.

    1Thes4 says that the dead in Christ come with the Lord at His Coming.
    1Cor15 says this:
    35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    seems this was on the minds of others too. The dead are quickened in heaven.
    and we read in Luk20
    27Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
    28Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
    29There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
    30And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.
    31And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.
    32Last of all the woman died also.
    33Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
    34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
    They all live now, in heaven. They come with Him from heaven at His Coming.

    Rev6,12,19,22 show the dead are alive in heaven too, prior to His Coming, and they are concious.

    I thinkit was a rhetorical question. Like, WHO SAYS THIS OR THAT. Not God.
    But I agree, that all go to heaven, either to the good side of the gulf or the bad side.



    The Father's flesh image, is Christ. Our flesh image, is what our spiritual image looks like on earth.

    ya, spirit is not understood correctly.

    but as for the clouds of heaven, that is the returning dead in Christ.
    clouds=mass multitude Heb12:1. compare Rev1.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2011
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