Question for rapture people

[DavidPT]

It means a transportation to another location on earth, as Matthew 24:31 says.
Jesus said that it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13

It looks like you and I would be on the same page then, maybe. Even though I might define it as a rapture, I'm not saying anyone is taken to heaven or anything. I just basically see it as gathering together of everyone into the same place in the air, then proceeding to the destination on the earth, which I assume would be in the middle east, likely Jerusalem.

 

[BABerean2]

So identify what event triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord?

No video. Communicate in your words.

How many Blood Moons books does it take to confirm the verse below?
My words mean nothing, just like yours.
Below we find the words of the Son of God.


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

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[Douggg]

How many Blood Moons books does it take to confirm the verse below?
My words mean nothing, just like yours.
Below we find the words of the Son of God.


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

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No, I am asking you what event triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord... not what day nor hour it happens. Nor even what year.

No video. Communicate with your own words.

 

[grafted branch]

It means a transportation to another location on earth, as Matthew 24:31 says.
Jesus said that it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13

Hi Keras,

I’m not convinced of any particular view point of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and am still studying it. I think you have brought up a good point about the air referring to another location on earth.

From Hebrews 9:27 we know that it’s appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. If believers are raptured at some point and go to the 3rd heaven, then there is a relatively large group of people who are not appointed once to die; although a person could speculate that the raptured people will eventually return back to earth to finally die. I realize there are some exceptions throughout the scriptures but an entire group of people being raptured to the 3rd heaven, in my opinion, would be in conflict with Hebrews 9:27.

Reading through Thessalonians I don’t get the impression that Paul is speaking in allegory or that we should interpret the rapture spiritually, although I’m still studying this. That being said, would you share your view of the “air”?

 

[BABerean2]

No, I am asking you what event triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord... not what day nor hour it happens. Nor even what year.

No video. Communicate with your own words.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

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[Ben5708]

Paul is prophesying about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it will only be then that Death is no more. 1 Cor 15:54 paralleled by Revelation 21:4
Immortality is not and cannot be given until Eternity commences for those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.

 

[Ben5708]

Paul in 1Co 15:51 is not “prophesying about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment.” Paul is “prophesying” about “a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.”

Revelation 20:11-15 affirms that “all” standing before the great white throne will be judged “according to their “works.”

“The dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it… and they were judged every man according to their works” (cf. Rev 20:12-13).

However, according to what Paul refers to as “my gospel” “the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began” ─ we are not saved by works.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be. by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;

However, “works” are quintessential for the Body of Christ ─ but not for salvation:

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We are not saved “by” good works we are saved “for” good works!

The Dichotomy of Works and Grace

 

[Douggg]

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Distress in the nations does not match with 1Thesssalonians5, that them caught off guard will be saying peace and safety. But let's not argue over that.

I will save us both some time. The beginning of the Day of the Lord, also called the Day of Christ, in 2Thessalonians2:4 is when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The rapture has to take place before then.

The 2Thessalonians2:4 event precedes Jesus's return and those signs in the sun, moon, stars.

It also precedes the heaven and earth being destroyed.

It also precedes the gathering at Armageddon.

That should make it very simplified. And I am sure that once you think it through you will agree with me.

 

[DavidPT]

I will save us both some time. The beginning of the Day of the Lord, also called the Day of Christ, in 2Thessalonians2:4 is when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

So you're saying that comes as a thief in the night when that happens?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Not to mention, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. So, what is described in 2 Peter 3:10 is what happens when "the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood"??

 

[BABerean2]

The beginning of the Day of the Lord, also called the Day of Christ, in 2Thessalonians2:4 is when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The rapture has to take place before then.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The text above is one of the reasons I abandoned the Pre-trib teaching.

It says the exact opposite of what you are claiming in your last sentence above.

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[Douggg]

So you're saying that comes as a thief in the night when that happens?

The beginning of the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, in so much as it will be totally unexpected that the Antichrist will commit the act. For at the time, he will thought to be the messiah, the promised great King of Israel, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety.

Not to mention, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. So, what is described in 2 Peter 3:10 is what happens when "the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood"??

2 Peter3:10 will happen at over a thousand years later, but the time length of a day in God's view is as a thousand years, in the context of what Peter said.

So the act by the Antichrist is still the beginning of the Day of Lord (a thousand years) in Peter's warning to the wicked concerning the destruction of heaven, earth, and all the works therein.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I no longer debate end times, I think it divides people. The theology forum here is very disturbing to me. People take controversial or questionable ideas and post them as fact. Do you ever hear the word theology in the Bible? It's not there. Because it's mans interpretation of the scriptures.

yep

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Still waiting. It just seems that if God cared enough to describe even the most minute details of Jesus' life even to points where it would to most seem insignificant then I would think that a huge event like the rapture would be prophesied in the OT too and we would have clear details of that as well .

HOW would anyone today have clear details of that or of anything ? Have you read this thread, and most of the forums online ? Nothing clear , let alone details !

Could you give yourself a name at least ? even anonymous one - most people are instructed for security and safety reasons to use a pseudonym. (anonymous)

 

[Douggg]

he text above is one of the reasons I abandoned the Pre-trib teaching.

It says the exact opposite of what you are claiming in your last sentence above.

Bab2, I am not using the the verse(s) to say that the rapture must happen pre-70th week (the definition of pre-trib by them who hold that view).

It might. I don't know. We do have enough signs to be looking and expecting.

The act by the Antichrist in general terms, because it cannot be predicted on what specific day, or week, or month, that he will commit the act during the middle part of the 70th week; but again in general terms sometime in middle of the 70th week before the exact mid-point.

 

[BABerean2]

Bab2, I am not using the the verse(s) to say that the rapture must happen pre-70th week (the definition of pre-trib by them who hold that view).

It might. I don't know. We do have enough signs to be looking and expecting.

The act by the Antichrist in general terms, because it cannot be predicted on what specific day, or week, or month, that he will commit the act during the middle part of the 70th week; but again in general terms sometime in middle of the 70th week before the exact mid-point.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.
The only way for you to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It can be created by ignoring the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.


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[Douggg]

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.
The only way for you to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It can be created by ignoring the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.


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But that was not the question of rapture being in 1Thessalonians4:13-18 and repeated again in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, which you yourself cited.

Which I had asked you what event triggers the Day of the Lord, to which you seemed to struggle with an answer, so I explained as that event being when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Bab2, it is not that my explanation was wrong in giving the general timing of the Antichrist's act according to the 70th week, but you have another issue in the view you have of the 70th week being partial fulfilled already.

I have been over it multiple times of why the full 70th week is still ahead of us. The casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:12 as being the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth, leaving Satan with only a time, times, half time, seals the deal that the full seven years are left, with concrete zero percent chance of being wrong. Because it can be backtracked through the verses in Revelation 12, to Revelation 12:6 to correspond to the 1260 days in Revelation 11, and the placement of the 7th angel sounding afterward, announcing the coming of the third woe soon - i.e Satan being cast down, leaving the time, times, half time.

Contrary to my approach being on the concrete information in Revelation 12:12, you are relying on a contrived unrealistic interpretation of what confirming of the covenant is in Daniel 9:27, and a video by Kelly Varner's uneducated awareness of Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years being in the bible as a law established by Moses.

I am not trying to prove or disprove dispensationalism, nor that a pre-trib (pre-70th week) rapture is mandatory. But, imo, it seems that your preoccupation with that cause has taken priority in your state of mind over correctly understanding the bible.

Cloaking your war on dispensationalism and the pre-trib rapture view as New Covenant theology gives a disservice to the legitimate term and meaning of the New Covenant - which is a doctrine not for that purpose.

There is nothing new under the sun, and God has seen it all before. I, therefore, am going to build my house on the concrete foundation of what is in the Word of God, not a video, not a campaign against dispenstationalism, nor a rapture timing view, but on the concrete, zero percent chance of being wrong passages - which two of those are in Revelation 12, the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth, and Ezekiel 39:21-29, God Himself as Jesus speaking in the text - that the full 70th week is still ahead of mankind.

 

[BABerean2]

Contrary to my approach being on the concrete information in Revelation 12:12, you are relying on a contrived unrealistic interpretation of what confirming of the covenant is in Daniel 9:27, and a video by Kelly Varner's uneducated awareness of Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years being in the bible as a law established by Moses.

Dr. Kelly Varner's interpretation is confirmed by the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible found below, which shows it not to be a "contrived unrealistic interpretation".

When you point one finger at someone else, there are more fingers pointing back in your direction.


Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.....................................................

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

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[Douggg]

Dr. Kelly Varner's interpretation is confirmed by the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible found below, which shows it not to be a "contrived unrealistic interpretation".

His interpretation is not confirmed because
1. He doesn't ever mention the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant on the 7 year interval in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

2. He does not ever mention the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth in Revelation 12:12, leaving Satan a time, times, half time.

3. He does not ever mention God Himself as Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to the earth 7 years after Gog/Magog.

Kelly Varner's motivation is his war on dispensatinalism and the pre-trib rapture view of the timing.

When you point one finger at someone else, there are more fingers pointing back in your direction.

So more fingers are pointing at you right now - because in all your posts it shows your preoccupation with your war on diespensationalism and the pre-trib ratpure view of the timing. Just look at the content of the videos you post.

The video in post #116, for example.

 

[BABerean2]

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


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[Douggg]

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


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Does not say in Daniel 9:27....

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the NEW covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.