Question for rapture people

[CharismaticLady]

Them in Revelation 7 are not in resurrected/nor raptured (translated) bodies. They are the martyrers of Revelation 6, the fifth seal:

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


When Jesus returns, there will be a special resurrection (not the rapture/resurrection) just for them in Revelation 20:4-6.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The implication is that those who will be martyred during the great tribulation, appearing in Revelation 7, and in the fifth seal in Revelation 6, will be resurrected into everlasting bodies at the beginning of the thousand years.

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here is part of the letter to one of the churches: Thyatira.

20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

These are Christians so they are not naked as unbelievers. They have robes. But they have dirtied their robes with sin, and they need to wash them through repentance in the blood of the Lamb.

This is unlike the last church age of unsaved people calling themselves Christians, "that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed."

Revelation 16:15
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

Revelation 17:16
And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Interesting post CL.
I decided to take a closer look at that Church and it would make for a fascinating study.

It appears Smyrna and Philadelphia are 2 of the Churches that the Lord laid no charges against..

Myrrh - Wikipedia
Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.


The word "myrrh" is only used 2 times in the NT.

At the birth of Jesus and at His burial

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the Child with Mary His mother, and having fallen down they bowed to Him,
And having opened their treasures, they presented to Him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,

John 39:
18 and Nicodemus also came -- who came unto Jesus by night at the first --
bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, as it were, a hundred pounds.
19 They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial;
===========================

==============================
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
SMYRNA

Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent. The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent.

The Lord saw their trouble and tribulation, their poverty and imprisonment, their unswerving steadfastness and great faithfulness, and they did not need to be told to repent. It was in their hearts to repent when the need arose, for the work of God ran deep in their lives. Considering all they would suffer, the Lord said to them, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Rev. 2:10).
Another church against which the Lord laid no charge, nor did He tell them to repent, was the church in Philadelphia. The Lord saw that they kept His word and had not denied His name, or nature. Because they kept the word of His patience, by which the kingdom of God is inherited, He gave them wonderful promises.

Very good! If you've never studied this before, it is VERY astute that you noticed this fact about Smyrna and the Philadelphian church AGES. Yes, they are the only two that were without charges.

If you want to hear a study on this, you can listen to the Letters to the Seven Churches by Chuck Missler on youtube. There will probably be 7 videos, so watch them in order. I had already done my own study and came up with the same conclusions, so it was interesting to hear Chuck teach most of the same things I found. I only found a bit more in the letter to Sardis.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Very good! If you've never studied this before, it is VERY astute that you noticed this fact about Smyrna and the Philadelphian church AGES. Yes, they are the only two that were without charges.

If you want to hear a study on this, you can listen to the Letters to the Seven Churches by Chuck Missler on youtube. There will probably be 7 videos, so watch them in order. I had already done my own study and came up with the same conclusions, so it was interesting to hear Chuck teach most of the same things I found. I only found a bit more in the letter to Sardis.

Thank you for that source.
My largest study is on the 4th Church of Thyatira.

The infamous Queen Jezebel mentioned, who was the wife of the infamous King Ahab in the OT and persecuted Elijah and killed the OT Prophets/Saints.

[As most know by now, I view 1st century Jerusalem and Temple in Revelation....]

2Ki 9:7 ‘You shall strike down the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel.

The Great City in Revelation 18 is also referred to as a "Queen"

Revelation 18:7 ..."I sit as Queen, not widow I am, sorrow not I shall see...."

Rev 18:24 “And in Her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

Revelation 18:7 As much as glorifies herself, and indulges be giving to her tormenting and mourning that in her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a Queen and widow not I am and mourning not I shall be seeing'.

Lam 1:1How deserted lies the City, once so full of people! How like a widow is She, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.

It is also the only Church where Jesus actually proclaims Himself "SON OF GOD"
Yahweh proclaimed that at the awesome event of the transfiguration:

Matthew 17:5
Still of Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud overshadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying
"this is being the Son of Me, the Beloved, in Whom I am well pleased, be ye hearing Him!

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches, although it is interesting to note that the church there is the smallest of the seven, and the city of Thyatira is the smallest of the seven cities..
“These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols” (Rev. 2:18-20).
JEZEBEL
Jezebel married Ahab, the king of Israel. As queen of Israel, she immediately set up the altars, shrines, and temples of her false gods, and began to require the people of Israel to worship these gods. The Bible tells us that she also practiced witchcraft and that at one time Jezebel had four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and four hundred prophets of the grove who “ate at her table” (I Kings 18:19), which undoubtedly means that she supported and influenced every one of these false prophets. Baal was the god of agriculture. Baal represents the god of plenty and increase. The goddess of the grove was Astarte, the goddess of all sensual love and sex. Temple prostitutes, sexual orgies, and all manner of uncleanness were part of the ritual of her worship.
Jezebel used her seductive and manipulative ways to control king Ahab. Ahab became a puppet in the hands of Jezebel, as do all those who refuse to deal with the spirit of Jezebel. Ahab followed her every whim to keep peace in his kingdom. It is written of him, “And he reared up an altar for Baal in the house of Baal, which he had built in Samaria. And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the Lord God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him” (I Kings 16:32-33).

 

[CharismaticLady]

Thank you for that source.
My largest study is on the 4th Church of Thyatira.

The infamous Queen Jezebel mentioned, who was the wife of the infamous King Ahab in the OT and persecuted Elijah and killed the OT Prophets/Saints.

[As most know by now, I view 1st century Jerusalem and Temple in Revelation....]
The Great City in Revelation 18 is also referred to as a "Queen"

Revelation 18:7 ..."I sit as Queen, not widow I am, sorrow not I shall see...."


It is also the only Church where Jesus actually proclaims Himself "SON OF GOD"
Yahweh proclaimed that at the awesome event of the transfiguration:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches, although it is interesting to note that the church there is the smallest of the seven, and the city of Thyatira is the smallest of the seven cities..
“These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols” (Rev. 2:18-20).
JEZEBEL
Jezebel married Ahab, the king of Israel. As queen of Israel, she immediately set up the altars, shrines, and temples of her false gods, and began to require the people of Israel to worship these gods. The Bible tells us that she also practiced witchcraft and that at one time Jezebel had four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and four hundred prophets of the grove who “ate at her table” (I Kings 18:19), which undoubtedly means that she supported and influenced every one of these false prophets. Baal was the god of agriculture. Baal represents the god of plenty and increase. The goddess of the grove was Astarte, the goddess of all sensual love and sex. Temple prostitutes, sexual orgies, and all manner of uncleanness were part of the ritual of her worship.
Jezebel used her seductive and manipulative ways to control king Ahab. Ahab became a puppet in the hands of Jezebel, as do all those who refuse to deal with the spirit of Jezebel. Ahab followed her every whim to keep peace in his kingdom. It is written of him, “And he reared up an altar for Baal in the house of Baal, which he had built in Samaria. And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the Lord God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him” (I Kings 16:32-33).

So in order, what church age would Thyatira be? Have you figured it out? And how does Jezebel fit into that church age?

 

[Douggg]

This is unlike the last church age of unsaved people calling themselves Christians, "that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed."

Revelation 16:15
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

There will be multitudes who become Christians during the great tribulation, after the rapture has taken place. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup in the temple

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So in order, what church age would Thyatira be? Have you figured it out? And how does Jezebel fit into that church age?

Not sure what you mean by "church age".

There were different age events all thru the OT[Hebrews 9:26] that are depicted in the Covenantle Book of Revelation concerning the NC of Life vs the OC of Death.

Heb 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world;
but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice/slaughter of Himself.
========================================
Note the Tree of Life in the 1st church which goes back to Genesis.........It symbolizes the Cross/Wood/Stake...........

It goes back to when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac on the Wood and from whom the Promise was to come thru......later the tribe of Judah thru Jacob.......

Gen 2:9
And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. [Revelation 22:2-14]

6086 `ets ates from 6095; a tree (from its firmness); hence, wood (plural sticks):--+ carpenter, gallows, helve, + pine, plank, staff, stalk, stick, stock, timber, tree, wood.

Genesis 22:
9 And they come in unto the place of which 'Elohim hath spoken to him, and there Abraham buildeth the altar, and arrangeth the wood/06086 `ets, and bindeth Yitschaq his son, and placeth him upon the altar above the wood/06086 `ets; 10 and Abraham putteth forth his hand, and taketh the knife--to slaughter his son.
13 And Abraham is lifting his eyes and behold a ram behind being held in thicket, in horns of him and Abraham is going and and he is taking the ram and he is offering up him as ascent offering instead of his son.
============================
3586. xulon xoo'-lon from another form of the base of 3582;
timber (as fuel or material); by implication, a stick, club or tree or other wooden article or substance:--staff, stocks, tree, wood.

Acts 13:29 and when they did finish all the things written about Him, having taken down from the wood/xulou<3586>, they laid Him in a tomb;

Rev 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree/wood of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” '

Rev 22:2
In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree/wood of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments,[fn] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
==================
The manna during the Exodus of the Hebrews Israelites from Egypt

Exo 16:35
And the children of Israel ate manna forty years, until they came to an inhabited land; they ate manna until they came to the border of the land of Canaan.
================
Jhn 6:58
“This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Heb 9:4
which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;

Rev 2:17
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” '
=================================
Please visit my allusions in Revelation thread and feel free to add to it.......

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

EZEKIEL AND REVELATION PARALLEL

1. THRONE VISION - (Rev 4./Ezek 1).
2. THE BOOK (Rev 5/Ezek 2-3)
3. THE PLAGUES (Rev 6:1-8/Ezek 5).
4. Slain Beneath the Altar (Rev. 6:9-11/Ezek. 6)
5. WRATH OF GOD (Rev 6:12-17/Ezek 7).
6. SEAL ON SAINTS' FOREHEADS (Rev 7/Ezek 9)
7. COALS FROM ALTAR (Rev. 8/Ezek 10).
8. NO MORE DELAY (Rev. 10:1-7/Ezek 12).
9. EATING THE BOOK (Rev 10:8-11/Ezek. 2)
11. MEASURING THE TEMPLE (Rev. 11:1-2/Ezek. 40-43)
11. JERUSALEM AND SODOM (Rev. 11:8/Ezek 16)
12. CUP OF WRATH (Rev. 14/Ezek. 23).
13. VINE OF THE LAND (Rev. 14:18-20/Ezek 15)
14. GREAT HARLOT (Rev 17-18/Ezek. 16, 23).
15. LAMENT OVER THE CITY (Rev. 18/Ezek 27)
16. SCAVENGER'S FEAST (Rev. 19/Ezek 39)
17. FIRST RESURRECTION (Rev 20:4-6/Ezek 37).
18 BATTLE WITH GOG AND MAGOG (Rev. 20:7-9/Ezek 38-39)
19. NEW JERUSALEM (Rev 21/Ezek 40-48)
20. RIVER OF LIFE (Rev 22/Ezek 47)
==================================================
Here are some of the ones I have come up with. Please feel free to add or comment on them.

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Books in Daniel Daniel 7:9 and 11:10.
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Cried and joy Temple/City: Ezra 3:12,13 and Reve 18:18, 19:4
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Ear to hear: Isaiah 6:9,10 and Matt 13:15, Reve 2,3,13
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Eat the book Ezekiel 3:1-3 Revelation 10:9-10
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Holy Holy Holy Isaiah 6:6 and Revelation 4:8
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Jericho, Priest and Trumpets: Joshua 6:4, Hebrews 11:30, Matt 24:31, Reve 8:6
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Lift hands to heaven and swore..: Daniel 2:7 and Reve 10:5
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Light Revelation to Israel and Nations: Isaiah 9:2, Luke 2:32, Reve 1:1
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Moses and Elijah, fire falling, as is also seen in Revelation.
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Moses and Elijah
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Mountain of fire cast into Sea
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Pierced: Zech 12:10 and Reve 1:7
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Sacrifice/Supper of God: Ezek 39:17 and Reve 19:17
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Sanctuary/Tabernacle filled with smoke
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Silence/Hush: Zech 1:7, 2:13 and Reve 8:1
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Sodom and Egypt: Matt 2:15, Reve 11:8
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Song of Moses: Exodus 15:1 and Revelation 15:3
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Spirit lifting, taking Ezekiel and John
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Stars 7
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Tree of Life and Garden: Genesis 3:24 and Reve 2:7
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Whip.........Nahum 3:2, John 2:15,

 

[keras]

There will be multitudes who become Christians during the great tribulation, after the rapture has taken place. .

The Bible refutes you. Revelation 13:3 & 8 say the whole world will worship the 'beast'.
Those who are already Christian, won't be a part of the One World Govt, living in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

The way you state these things, as though what you say will happen, having never provided scriptural proof for them, here or elsewhere, is a very serious charge against you, for teaching false theories.

 

[CharismaticLady]

There will be multitudes who become Christians during the great tribulation, after the rapture has taken place. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup in the temple

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

.

As I said, Scripture says only Jews will become new believers. What makes you believe Gentiles will become new believers and not follow the Antichrist?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not sure what you mean by "church age".

The history of the church is revealed in Revelation 2 and 3 and they are in order. I'll give you a hint and get you started: The Church at Ephesus was during the 1st century. The Church at Smyrna is the time of 10 emperors that slaughtered thousands of Christians to lions in arenas until Constantine put an end to the slaughter, and it was no longer unlawful to be a Christian. Now you think about it and let me know what you come up with.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Bible refutes you. Revelation 13:3 & 8 say the whole world will worship the 'beast'.
Those who are already Christian, won't be a part of the One World Govt, living in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

The way you state these things, as though what you say will happen, having never provided scriptural proof for them, here or elsewhere, is a very serious charge against you, for teaching false theories.

I agree that there will be no Gentiles becoming Christians during the Great Tribulation. But there will be Jews who will finally understand that Jesus is their promised Messiah and enter the Church. And this is not to say that the Church is Gentile and has already been raptured. That is a myth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The history of the church is revealed in Revelation 2 and 3 and they are in order. I'll give you a hint and get you started: The Church at Ephesus was during the 1st century. The Church at Smyrna is the time of 10 emperors that slaughtered thousands of Christians to lions in arenas until Constantine put an end to the slaughter, and it was no longer unlawful to be a Christian. Now you think about it and let me know what you come up with.

I view 1st century 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Nothing much more I can add.......

I could use more input and votes from Preterists, Futurists and every view in between on this thread. Thank you.........

What great City is showing in Revelation

1. *
   70AD Jerusalem
   1 vote(s)
   20.0%
2. Jerusalem in the future
   1 vote(s)
   20.0%
3. The literal city of Babylon
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. Some other City
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
5. It is not a literal city
   1 vote(s)
   20.0%
6. I don't know at this time
   2 vote(s)
   40.0%
7. Other
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Double post..........

 

[CharismaticLady]

I view 1st century 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Nothing much more I can add.......

I could use more input and votes from Preterists, Futurists and every view in between on this thread. Thank you.........

What great City is showing in Revelation

1. *
   70AD Jerusalem
   1 vote(s)
   20.0%
2. Jerusalem in the future
   1 vote(s)
   20.0%
3. The literal city of Babylon
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. Some other City
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
5. It is not a literal city
   1 vote(s)
   20.0%
6. I don't know at this time
   2 vote(s)
   40.0%
7. Other
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

You are misunderstanding the letters. They are before and up to end times. Has nothing to do with preterist, pre-trib or post-trib. Another hint in the sequence. Constantine was the beginning of Pergamos. I'm not sure now if you want to discuss the letters or the rest of Revelation???

This will help you identify Jezebel in Thyatira

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are misunderstanding the letters. They are before and up to end times. Has nothing to do with preterist, pre-trib or post-trib. Another hint in the sequence. Constantine was the beginning of Pergamos. I'm not sure now if you want to discuss the letters or the rest of Revelation???

Constantine didn't stand on the Mount of Olives in 70AD

John 11:48 "If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation."

Matthew 24 Mount of Olives and Titus' 10th Legion on Mt Olives 70ad

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying.............
6 “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles...but not as yet the End<5056>

Revelation16:17 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning Her in fire.
======================
APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus.
Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Constantine didn't stand on the Mount of Olives in 70AD

Oh really? Golly I didn't know that. LOL

Are you just not interest in learning about the letters to the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3, because that silly statement of yours has nothing to do with church history. I'll just leave you to learn this from Chuck Missler if you are ever interested.

 

[d taylor]

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

This is wrong there are three heavens. The 1st heaven is the raqia (firmament,expanse,vault) where the sun, moon and stars are placed and also where the birds fly (Genesis 1:6,7,8,14,15,16,17 and 20)

The second heaven is above the first heaven and above the waters above. (is this the home of believers ?)

And the third heaven is above the first and second heaven and is the place of God

 

[CharismaticLady]

This is wrong there are three heavens. The 1st heaven is the raqia (firmament,expanse,vault) where the sun, moon and stars are placed and also where the birds fly (Genesis 1:6,7,8,14,15,16,17 and 20)

The second heaven is above the first heaven and above the waters above. (is this the home of believers ?)

And the third heaven is above the first and second heaven and is the place of God

@keras is correct.

 

[PizzaAddict]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Rapture is called a mystery which is something true but hidden in past revealed when God wanted to , God revealed the rapture and Church plann to Paul it was not known before , both of them were mysteries so you won't find anything in OT . Also Paul was prophet of God aswell so Amos does not count only towards OT but NT aswell. He revealed to Paul about the rapture and then he will do it all according to plann no contradictions.

 

[d taylor]

@keras is correct.

Go read Genesis 1 and prove me wrong. Show me the verses that show me i am wrong.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

sorry I adressed this in my last post, however I am at work right now so I can really fully adress your arguments. I know you are relying on your main gotcha point to prove your point, but again the trinity is not really found in the old testament. Some say that in genesis it says "we created man in our image." is a sign of the trinity, and it may be. But it does not say three there, and a trinity is three. So who is talking there, angels? God? God using his majestic voice? So again it's not a strong argument for the trinity, the strongest arguments are definitely found in the new testament, so I feel this sufficiently refutes what was said about God having to repeat himself in both the old and new testaments on every major doctrine. I am sure I can find other doctrines that are not repeated in the old testament as well if you wish to pursue this further.

You should study the word ELOHIM.

It is this word which is used in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth." In fact the word appears some 2,750 times in the Old Testament.

Genesis 1 NOG;NIV - The Creation - In the beginning Elohim - Bible Gateway
1 In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The Ruach Elohim was hovering over the water.