Question for rapture people

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

 

[createdtoworship]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

I no longer debate end times, I think it divides people. The theology forum here is very disturbing to me. People take controversial or questionable ideas and post them as fact. Do you ever hear the word theology in the Bible? It's not there. Because it's mans interpretation of the scriptures. I do believe in the rapture, but I have never convinced someone of it, and no one has ever convinced me it was wrong, the only thing that happened was we divided, got mad at each other, and refused to talk to each other. So that to me shows the fruit of debate is really unfruitful. If you can debate with a fully open mind and have supernatural patience for all the stupid replies, then maybe, maybe debate is for you. But realize you will have to say the same thing over and over and over and over, to different people yes, but you are constantly repeating yourself. Anyway, I hope I discouraged you from this tactic. I do love CF I have been really edified by it the last few days. But I have avoided debate sections, theology sections and apologetics sections, as people get really defensive of their views.

anyway, this post should answer all your questions: (I know you won't think it will and will try to dismiss it by finding one or two errors, maybe three, and then refuting the whole article as innacurate), but remember a difference of opinion is not necessarily a proof of error. Some people may just see things differently and different is not always bad.

anyway, this is the most complete essay I have seen done on rapture theory, and the end of the document is the best part....

https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj13i.pdf

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Still waiting. It just seems that if God cared enough to describe even the most minute details of Jesus' life even to points where it would to most seem insignificant then I would think that a huge event like the rapture would be prophesied in the OT too and we would have clear details of that as well .

 

[createdtoworship]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

by the way there is a verse in isaiah that talks about the rapture, but it's in my Bible at home. I can get it later today and post it. But I am not sure you are accurate that it must be posted in the old testament to be doctrine. The trinity for example is a doctrine that came about mainly after the new testament and the giving of the holy spirit. So anyway, I will try to post that verse in Isaiah, it's been ten years since I have thought about this controversy. Again, debate does not do anyone any good, it's always good to simply find things you agree with and unify over them, rather than finding a point of discord and choosing to fight strangers online over said discord.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

To first get things right, you have to admit that you could be wrong. Sadly, some are unwilling to come off their sacred cows despite what's right in front of their faces. They would rather let others tell them falsehood, and even in some cases pay thousands of dollars to hear it. Yeah, I'm saying religious uni and college is a joke. They are part of the reason why an idea of the rapture (as a tradition of men) has and is continuing to be taught to folks who would rather learn from people rather than spend time cultivating time with the Holy Spirit and letting teach them. But look, I really didn't come in here to debate. I'm honestly desiring to see if anyone could supply OT references of a rapture. I'm not intending to change anyone mind. I was once a rapture believer. God had to change that.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

by the way there is a verse in isaiah that talks about the rapture, but it's in my Bible at home. I can get it later today and post it. But I am not sure you are accurate that it must be posted in the old testament to be doctrine. The trinity for example is a doctrine that came about mainly after the new testament and the giving of the holy spirit. So anyway, I will try to post that verse in Isaiah, it's been ten years since I have thought about this controversy. Again, debate does not do anyone any good, it's always good to simply find things you agree with and unify over them, rather than finding a point of discord and choosing to fight strangers online over said discord.

OK. Post it when you get it. Thanks!

 

[createdtoworship]

Still waiting. It just seems that if God cared enough to describe even the most minute details of Jesus' life even to points where it would to most seem insignificant then I would think that a huge event like the rapture would be prophesied in the OT too and we would have clear details of that as well .

sorry I adressed this in my last post, however I am at work right now so I can really fully adress your arguments. I know you are relying on your main gotcha point to prove your point, but again the trinity is not really found in the old testament. Some say that in genesis it says "we created man in our image." is a sign of the trinity, and it may be. But it does not say three there, and a trinity is three. So who is talking there, angels? God? God using his majestic voice? So again it's not a strong argument for the trinity, the strongest arguments are definitely found in the new testament, so I feel this sufficiently refutes what was said about God having to repeat himself in both the old and new testaments on every major doctrine. I am sure I can find other doctrines that are not repeated in the old testament as well if you wish to pursue this further.

 

[createdtoworship]

To first get things right, you have to admit that you could be wrong. Sadly, some are unwilling to come off their sacred cows despite what's right in front of their faces. They would rather let others tell them falsehood, and even in some cases pay thousands of dollars to hear it. Yeah, I'm saying religious uni and college is a joke. They are part of the reason why an idea of the rapture (as a tradition of men) has and is continuing to be taught to folks who would rather learn from people rather than spend time cultivating time with the Holy Spirit and letting teach them. But look, I really didn't come in here to debate. I'm honestly desiring to see if anyone could supply OT references of a rapture. I'm not intending to change anyone mind. I was once a rapture believer. God had to change that.

Oh I am wrong every day, but do you admit you could be wrong? Not just admit it, but are you humble enough to accept public refutation of your arguments in a way that is both uplifting to everyone in the thread and in a way that honors Christ? I exhort myself. But this is what you have to be to debate. And most can't do it.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

by the way there is a verse in isaiah that talks about the rapture, but it's in my Bible at home. I can get it later today and post it. But I am not sure you are accurate that it must be posted in the old testament to be doctrine. The trinity for example is a doctrine that came about mainly after the new testament and the giving of the holy spirit. So anyway, I will try to post that verse in Isaiah, it's been ten years since I have thought about this controversy. Again, debate does not do anyone any good, it's always good to simply find things you agree with and unify over them, rather than finding a point of discord and choosing to fight strangers online over said discord.

I'll remind you, however, that in order to teach anything that word must be corroborated by two or three witnesses. That's not my word. That's Jesus'. Among other things, He knew that people would try to cherry pick text to build their own doctrines of men. I'll read your Isaiah verse though.

 

[Douggg]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Jesus was a prophet, and God Himself. The rapture has not happened yet, but it has been revealed by Jesus and his servant Paul. 1Thessalonians4:13-18. Luke 21:34-36. And awareness of the rapture is so widespread, it cannot be said that it has not be revealed.

Following the rapture, and after the great tribulation here on earth comes to a close, the raptured saints return with Jesus in Zechariah 14:5, the Lord cometh with all His saints.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'll remind you, however, that in order to teach anything that word must be corroborated by two or three witnesses. That's not my word. That's Jesus'. Among other things, He knew that people would try to cherry pick text to build their own doctrines of men. I'll read your Isaiah verse though.

so what do you mean two or three witnesses? I though he was talking judicially in the church regarding public sins in the church, are you saying He was referring to something else? Please post verses to explain.

 

[DamianWarS]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

look a the cross-references of Matthew 24, there's a whole of OT quotes in there. I'm not sure what you're looking for but the OT is a shadow of things to come and explicit references don't always work. Where does the OT speak of baptism? It's there but not so clearly for example, Noah and the ark, Moses and the basket, crossing the red sea/Jordan but these are veiled references and if you don't want to see them then could you easily dismiss them.

Isaiah 26:19-21 is such a reference
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For (your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

here we have a resurrection of the dead and a calling of God's people to his chambers, protected by fury of punishment upon the inhabitants of the earth. So if God punishes the "inhabitants of the earth" where are his people he protects?... in his chambers apparently which would seem to be away from earth... what is this "calling" then?

there are actually quite a few references but given your disbelief, I don't know how beneficial it would be and I'm sure you're already explaining away the passage I listed. This reminds me of when the Sadducees tried to trap Jesus with some inventive hypothetical about the resurrection. The Sadducees only accepted the Pentateuch so if Jesus quoted Isaiah he knew they wouldn't accept it, so instead he quotes a more veiled evidence of the resurrection citing that God is the God of the living not the dead trapping them at their own game. I'm not trying to trap you but you seem to be approaching this in the same spirit as the Sadducees did with Jesus.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Not sure why you bring up the Trinity. It's clear there's a Godhead. This doctrine is not so much declared as intimated in the OT. And if you can provide sufficient evidence of even this as it pertains to a rapture then that will suffice and I'll be on my way.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

so what do you mean two or three witnesses? I though he was talking judicially in the church regarding public sins in the church, are you saying He was referring to something else? Please post verses to explain.

I'm saying He was talking about sins in the church and everything else. You'll never find Jesus or any other writer teach on something unless it was founded by prior or future of evidence of two or three witnesses. This is more than about posting a verse to prove this point. It's found in totality of scripture. And it would take more time than I have to discuss this,

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

look a the cross-references of Matthew 24, there's a whole of OT quotes in there. I'm not sure what you're looking for but the OT is a shadow of things to come and explicit references don't always work. Where does the OT speak of baptism? It's there but not so clearly for example, Noah and the ark, Moses and the basket, crossing the red sea/Jordan but these are veiled references and if you don't want to see them then could you easily dismiss them.

Isaiah 26:19-21 is such a reference
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For (your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

here we have a resurrection of the dead and a calling of God's people to his chambers, protected by fury of punishment upon the inhabitants of the earth. So if God punishes the "inhabitants of the earth" where are his people he protects?... in his chambers apparently which would seem to be away from earth... what is this "calling" then?

there are actually quite a few references but given your disbelief, I don't know how beneficial it would be and I'm sure you're already explaining away the passage I listed. This reminds me of when the Sadducees tried to trap Jesus with some inventive hypothetical about the resurrection. The Sadducees only accepted the Pentateuch so if Jesus quoted Isaiah he knew they wouldn't accept it, so instead he quotes a more veiled evidence of the resurrection citing that God is the God of the living not the dead trapping them at their own game. I'm not trying to trap you but you seem to be approaching this in the same spirit as the Sadducees did with Jesus.

Nope. This is what I was after. Thanks for sharing. I'll be going now. Thanks for contributing. Oh, please post the other references if you can so kindly. Thanks!

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Not to be impatient, but Damian posted the Isaiah verses. Does he or anyone else got any more?

 

[DamianWarS]

Nope. This is what I was after. Thanks for sharing. I'll be going now. Thanks for contributing. Oh, please post the other references if you can so kindly. Thanks!

I think my comments about your disbelief are warranted. If you're not willing to dialog then I'm not interested in it either.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'm saying He was talking about sins in the church and everything else. You'll never find Jesus or any other writer teach on something unless it was founded by prior or future of evidence of two or three witnesses. This is more than about posting a verse to prove this point. It's found in totality of scripture. And it would take more time than I have to discuss this,

I would disagree. I don't think there need to be only two witnesses of a particular subject. See what you are saying is that 2 minimum or maybe 3 are sufficient to prove a particular doctrine. I think more than three is preferred. I would say 4-6 maybe in some cases, if not a dozen or more. Since you believe that 2 or 3 witnesses applies to "everything." you must accept that 2 is sufficient. And it simply is not. See I can say that the suicide is acceptible in the Bible. Judas hung himself and in saul fell upon his sword. So those are my two witnesses. But that would be absurd to only use two weak witnesses to prove suicide is ok, or honorable. But people do this type of thing every day. They do it with smoking weed and with justifying homosexuality, you name it and someone thinks the Bible says it's ok. Something is only proven in the Bible when all the Bible says it, not a part of the Bible.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

I think my comments about your disbelief seem accurate. If you're not willing to dialog then I'm not interested in it either.

You either have other references or not. I'm not looking for a discussion. We are supposed to believe in the same Lord.

 

[createdtoworship]

Still waiting. It just seems that if God cared enough to describe even the most minute details of Jesus' life even to points where it would to most seem insignificant then I would think that a huge event like the rapture would be prophesied in the OT too and we would have clear details of that as well .

I will out of fairness answer this question I mentioned I had a solution for, in
ISAIAH 26:19-21

is a reference to the rapture, I believe.