Question for rapture people

[createdtoworship]

For some people what you experienced is what they experience and for some it is not. Some Christians die without overcoming all of their addictions, not least being their addiction to sin.

well sir that would not be a failure on Jesus part, but a failure on our part not to enter in the victory that has already been provided.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lot was said to be yanked out of Sodom in a nod to rapture.

Yes he was......
Lot is mentioned 3 times in the NT.

Sodom is also mentioned in Revelation 11:18 concerning 1st century 70AD Jerusalem which is showing in Revelation 17, 18 and 19........
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Gen 19:15
When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”

Luk 17:28
“Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
Luk 17:29
“but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

2Pe 2:7
and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked

Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.
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Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

In Rev 11:8 Jerusalem is called Sodom because it is where, when Jesus died and arose from the dead He completely wiped out sin as He did in Sodom when He completely destroyed it by fire and brimstone. Analysis of the ashen remains of Sodom, which was rediscovered by Wyatt Archeological Research, has shown that this comparison is accurate since they could not reignite the ashen remains that they recovered from the site of Gomorrah.
Jerusalem is mystically called Egypt because when Jesus died and arose from the dead in Jerusalem He released us from the captivity of death as He by His power alone released Israel, which symbolizes Christians, from captivity in Egypt.
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Bro. James D Albright

Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

Who is the woman on the beast in Revelation 17-18?
_______________________________________________________________
The woman is the great city
Revelation 17:18
And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

A.)the great city is Jerusalem
Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.

B.) Peter states that the church in Jerusalem, is in Babylon.
1 Peter 5:13
She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.
________________________________________________________________
Punishment for the woman in Revelation 17-18

A.)God uses the beast and 10 horns to desolate the woman, who is unfaithful Jerusalem.
Revelation 17:16-17
And the ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by uniting to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
________________________________________________________________________
Why was the woman punished?

A.) she killed the saint of Jesus
Revelation 17:6
could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus. And I was greatly astonished at the sight of her.

B.) She killed the prophets and saints
Revelation 18:24
And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

C.) Her sins were piled to heaven
Revelation 18:5
For her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

D.) She had been immoral with other nations
Revelation 18:3
All the nations have drunkc the wine of the passion of her immorality.
The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown wealthy through the extravagance of her luxury.”
_________________________________________________________________________

When did her punishment occur?

When Jesus said it would, on the generation of his audience:

matthew 23:35
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Revelation 18:24
And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.
_________________________________________________________________________

The woman was unfaithful Jerusalem (israel), who was made desolate by the roman armies because of all the righteous blood it had spilled.

Jerusalem - mystery Babylon because of Revelation 11:8?

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:8 obviously refers to Jerusalem. But does that verse imply that Jerusalem, is mystery Babylon the Great?

Let's take a look at that verse a little more carefully.

Remember John was living in the first century and he was writing to the churches at that time, all that he experienced and wrote down in Revelation.

What was Jerusalem like at that time? The religious establishment had rejected Jesus and were non-too fond of the church that had sprang up afterward. Which I think John was saying to his generation who would relate that condition to Jerusalem in his day, was like Sodom and Egypt.

Revelation 11:8 is not talking about Jerusalem being like Sodom and Egypt in the end times, but
Jerusalem of the Pharisees and Sadducee's in his day, being like Sodom and Egypt.

Think of John reporting to a church congregation of his day, the words he is saying in Revelation 11:8. They would relate. It is not intended to be a condition of Jerusalem in the end times. The two witnesses's bodies laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem is end times, but not the called Sodom and Egypt. That part was in John's day.

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Matthew 24:16
then those in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains

Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation<2050>, the one being declared by Daniel the prophet, standing where it is not binding, (whoever is reading let him be understanding!)
Then those in Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains

Luke 21:21
then those in Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country;
and those in the countries placed, let them not come be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Go read Genesis 1 and prove me wrong. Show me the verses that show me i am wrong.

Actually, this is what you need to prove:

The second heaven is above the first heaven and above the waters above. (is this the home of believers ?)

 

[CharismaticLady]

well sir that would not be a failure on Jesus part, but a failure on our part not to enter in the victory that has already been provided.

Yes, many calling themselves "Christians" have never been born again of the Spirit where the victory lies within. I was a "Christian" going to church for 30 years before I was born again and filled with the Spirit of Christ. Wow, what a difference having a new nature makes.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

gradyll said: ↑
The one purpose for christianity is to overcome the power of sin. When we overcome addiction, we testify to the power of the gospel. It allows us to associate with others weakness and point them to the transformational power of Jesus. To the person who is still addicted, after being a christian. That is only a matter of time. It took me twenty years to overcome some addiction. But ninety percent of my addictions were healed in one year, after rededicating to the Lord. And submitting to His Lordship. The same power that raised Christ from the dead is alive in us. And will change our lives to the better, if we allow it to.

GingerBeer said: ↑
For some people what you experienced is what they experience and for some it is not. Some Christians die without overcoming all of their addictions, not least being their addiction to sin.

gradyll said: ↑
well sir that would not be a failure on Jesus part, but a failure on our part not to enter in the victory that has already been provided.

Yes, many calling themselves "Christians" have never been born again of the Spirit where the victory lies within. I was a "Christian" going to church for 30 years before I was born again and filled with the Spirit of Christ. Wow, what a difference having a new nature makes.

That is a pretty bold statement CL.
So you can discern a real Christian from a non-real Christian? What is your criteria for that?

 

[CharismaticLady]

That is a pretty bold statement CL.
So you can discern a real Christian from a non-real Christian? What is your criteria for that?

Power over sin. We are free from the desire to sin. But only God knows the heart. We have to examine ourselves so we will not be judged.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:1-9
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Power over sin. We are free from the desire to sin. But only God knows the heart. We have to examine ourselves so we will not be judged.

No argument with that..........Jesus, the great I AM!

Jeremiah 17:10 I Yahweh, searching heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings. [Revelation 2:23]

Ezekiel 11:19
And I have given to them one heart, And a new spirit I do give in your midst,
And I have turned the heart of stone out of their flesh, And I have given to them a heart of flesh.

Revelation 2:23 And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death, and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510> the One searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts.
And I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye. [Jeremiah 17:10]

Revelation 22:16
'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies;
I/egw<1473> AM/eimi<1510> the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

GingerBeer said: ↑
For some people what you experienced is what they experience and for some it is not. Some Christians die without overcoming all of their addictions, not least being their addiction to sin.

gradyll said: ↑
well sir that would not be a failure on Jesus part, but a failure on our part not to enter in the victory that has already been provided.

CharismaticLady said: ↑
Yes, many calling themselves "Christians" have never been born again of the Spirit where the victory lies within. I was a "Christian" going to church for 30 years before I was born again and filled with the Spirit of Christ. Wow, what a difference having a new nature makes.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
That is a pretty bold statement CL.
So you can discern a real Christian from a non-real Christian? What is your criteria for that

Power over sin. We are free from the desire to sin. But only God knows the heart. We have to examine ourselves so we will not be judged.

Ok. So with that criteria, can you identify any "so called" Christians on this forum, or anywhere else, that are "non-real/so called" Christians?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

double post........................

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ok. So with that criteria, can you identify any "so called" Christians on this forum, or anywhere else, that are "non-real/so called" Christians?

Of course not. But I remember when I, myself, was only a Christian in false name only for 30 years! I've been born again now for 42 years. The difference is night and day/ darkness and light.

 

[createdtoworship]

That is a pretty bold statement CL.
So you can discern a real Christian from a non-real Christian? What is your criteria for that?

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[fn] nor sodomites,"

1 Corinthians 6:9 nkjv

 

[Ben5708]

Regarding “a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” (1Co 15:51) ─ it has the witness of Father, Son, and Spirit.

Regarding Amo 3:7: “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets [as He revealed this secret unto Paul].”

No Old Testament prophet or anyone else ever spoke of the “rapture” – it was a “mystery” ─ until the risen and glorified Lord Jesus revealed it unto Paul:

The mysteries of Paul’s epistles, are facets of the Father’s comprehensive “will” spanning this “dispensation of the grace of God.” With the “final” facet of the mystery of His will being what is commonly called the “rapture”:

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1Co 15:51-52).

“The revelation of the mystery… was kept secret since the world began” (cf. Rom 16:25).

“The wisdom of God in a mystery… which God ordained before the world” (cf. 1Co_2:7).

“The mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God” (cf. Eph_3:9).

“Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints” (Col_1:26).

For a more exacting examination of Our Father’s comprehensive “will” spanning this “dispensation of the grace of God,” consider the accessing this link:

The Mystery

 

[keras]

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1Co 15:51-52).

Paul is prophesying about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
Proved by how it will only be then that Death is no more. 1 Cor 15:54 paralleled by Revelation 21:4
Immortality is not and cannot be given until Eternity commences for those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.

 

[Biblewriter]

But, the second coming is also an "appearance". If it was as you think and the second coming is later, don't you think Hebrews 9 would also mention that? One thing about your beliefs is that there is nowhere in Scripture where both are mentioned as two separate occurrences plainly taught in the same teaching. Don't you think if you are going to curse people who are not afraid to die for Christ, and you are, you might want to look at yourself? If by chance, I am right and you have to go through the Great Tribulation because God thinks you are weak and need to stand up and be counted, you might very well save yourself and take the mark of the beast, thinking God lied to you?

God's wrath is the lake of fire, not tribulation.

You are forgetting that not even one Old Testament prophecy even mentioned the idea that Messiah would come more than just one time. But the Old Testament showed He was coming more than once by presenting apparent contradictions in the accounts of what He would do.

 

[DavidPT]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

When you say you don't believe in a rapture, what exactly is it that you think 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is depicting then?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What does caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, mean to you?


There are different theories on the timing of the rapture though. The 2 main theories are Pretrib and Post trib. Obviously there is no such thing as a Pretrib rapture, though I'm certain Pretribbers disagree big time with that, so does that mean there is also no such thing as a post trib rapture either?

 

[BABerean2]

You are forgetting that not even one Old Testament prophecy even mentioned the idea that Messiah would come more than just one time. But the Old Testament showed He was coming more than once by presenting apparent contradictions in the accounts of what He would do.

The event is described at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.

Former Pre-tribber Steven Straub produced the following proof for YouTube. He is author of the book "Changed".

.

 

[Biblewriter]

The event is described at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.

Former Pre-tribber Steven Straub produced the following proof for YouTube. He is author of the book "Changed".

.

When you START posting your own opinions, instead of those of whatever "teacher' you currently fins attractive, MAYBE a few people will START examining your posts.

 

[fwGod]

On the topic of the rapture.. it was held off in being revealed until the people would come to whom it applied. Although it was established during Moses life as leader of the Jewish people and celebrated through the Jewish feast of Trumpets.

To everything there is a season. The old testament wasn't the season for the rapture. And God's revelations are progressive. They are not all dumped out in the old testament.

Thinking that the rapture should be as much mentioned in the old testament as it is in the new testament.. could be because we are the body of Christ able to turn the pages and look at the times of the old testament. But God put a distinctive dividing line.

To make way for the new testament established through Jesus Christ. The farther back in time that you go in the Bible.. the less will be found any mention of the rapture that we can primarily read of in the new testament.

There is barely any mention of the rapture in the old testament because it was before Jesus was born.
There is a time and a season for every purpose. The rapture involves the church, the body of Jesus Christ in the earth.

The rapture was specifically revealed to the apostle Paul with the ministry to the believing church. We are the ones to whom it is given to expect it.

We've all been waiting for it to happen for roughly two thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.

So identify what event triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord?

No video. Communicate in your words.

 

[keras]

When you say you don't believe in a rapture, what exactly is it that you think 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is depicting then?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It means a transportation to another location on earth, as Matthew 24:31 says.
Jesus said that it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13