Originally posted by Hoonbaba
How do we know the the souls under the altar are the first fruits?
God bless! =)
-Jason
Good question. I haft to go back to work but I will get back too you on this.
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Originally posted by Hoonbaba
How do we know the the souls under the altar are the first fruits?
God bless! =)
-Jason
Originally posted by Psalm6
in the bible it says Elijah was taken up into Heaven, so whatever. It says he was taken to heaven, not hades, not broadway, heaven. Is there a preterist heaven I don't know about? There must be....
Originally posted by Psalm6
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Mat 24:30-31)
There is no historical evidence that such things occurred.
Originally posted by Psalm6
P70, I thank everyone for their prayers, because I felt the spirit there today, and the family seemed to just glow...if that makes sense. Thanks everyone.
Originally posted by Hoonbaba
How do we know the the souls under the altar are the first fruits?
God bless! =)
-Jason
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Healing from sickness would be the right of every believer, as the charismatics preach, and not based on God's case by case decision, because our redemption is full, and we no longer have only the firstfruits of redemption (spiritual redemption), but also the physical results. What say you?
But Rev 22:2 depicts a healing of nations, which implies that in the 'age to come' pain would still be experienced, but that's where the healing comes in =)
By the way the gospel message is mentioned in Rev 22:17
Anyway, Rev 22:15 also says that evildoers would also live in the age to come.
Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Well, Jason, I go to a "Third Wave" church currently going further in to "charismatic." I don't have a problem with God healing (I am sure that he works today). However, the fact that healing is not universal among Believers seems to indicate it is a firstfruit, but not yet a guarantee and right. I've heard it so many times (among people who don't even believe that we're in that new age!) that healing WILL happen if we accept it, or believe it, or act in some other way. That's not what Paul says happens, until the redemption of the body, and it's something that's not happening today. So how can the body be redeemed yet? And don't give me that bunk about, "If you truly believe, you'll be healed." I'm sure we all know of instances of people who believe in their "right to healing" like they believe in their own existence, and still aren't healed. So either the body is redeemed (which really sounds like it will be free from ailment in the first place) and in NO instance will sickness (or, ostensibly, death) prevail (and they both sure seem to), or the time Paul is referring to is yet to come. Can full preterists still believe in another age yet to come?
Very interesting. Thanks for that info!
"I want to believe" )) in preterism, but this is my biggest problem with it.
Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70
Hi Hoonbaba. Now back to your good question. Your question really goes back to what GW, and I, have been saying all this time. The key to understanding any passage of Scripture has always been a good grasp of the historical setting, language, and culture, of Old Testament Israel.
We know these souls who were "under the altar" (Rev.6:9) were firstfruits because they were in the "outer court." They were technically covered by the blood of Christ positionally being under the sacrificial altar. By being placed under the sacrificial altar they were the firstfruits to be brought as an offering to God.
Another picture which shows these souls are the firstfruits is they were not in the Holy of Holies in the heavenly realm but remained in the outer which shows they were not in the very presence of God but a first offering to God.
We also know these souls were firstfruits unto God because before the sacrifices of Christ no man was ever under the sacrificial altar which makes them firstfruits unto God.
No souls until then were ever in the prosees of assessing the heavenly realm which makes them firstfruits.
We also know these souls are NOT members of the harvest (Old Covenant Israel) but cuts of the firstfruits (New Covenant Israel) because firstfruits do not flow the harvest. The firstfruits are cut first, then flows the harvest. One thing must be said here. According to our old traditional views the harvest is good and rotten by now.
The process of resurrection begun with Jesus and continued during the first century with the firstfruits believers (James 1:18, Rev. 7:14) Satan's binding prevented him from hindering the spread of this gospel message which declared LIFE and VICTORY OVER DEATH (1 Cor. 15:54-57).
Because of the start of the New Covenant at the death of Christ man now began to pass for death unto life Roman 6:4 and a process of accessing the heavenly realm.
For example, when Stephen was stoned he called upon the Lord and said, (Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!) Acts 7:59 These firstfruits like Stephen remained in the out court until the time of the full harvest. (Revelation 20:11-14)
Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I got a question! This is one I've been wondering about for awhile.
Ok, Paul in Romans 8 and elsewhere makes a big deal of partial redemption, the "already, not yet" paradigm. ...Now, I have a feeling that preterism says that the "glory that will be revealed," takes place at AD 70, and that the hope and waiting "for...adoption as sons" is also fulfilled. However, this means extraordinary things for the theology of healing. The "redemption of our bodies," the groaning pains of childbirth, and the creation's liberation "from its bondage to decay" into "glorious freedom" (including the lion lying down with the lamb, a very common theme in apocalyptic literature) should have already happened. If it has, how? My cat still kills mice. When will that stop?
Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70
Hi Hoonbaba. Now back to your good question. Your question really goes back to what GW, and I, have been saying all this time. The key to understanding any passage of Scripture has always been a good grasp of the historical setting, language, and culture, of Old Testament Israel.
We know these souls who were "under the altar" (Rev.6:9) were firstfruits because they were in the "outer court." They were technically covered by the blood of Christ positionally being under the sacrificial altar. By being placed under the sacrificial altar they were the firstfruits to be brought as an offering to God.
Another picture which shows these souls are the firstfruits is they were not in the Holy of Holies in the heavenly realm but remained in the outer which shows they were not in the very presence of God but a first offering to God.
We also know these souls were firstfruits unto God because before the sacrifices of Christ no man was ever under the sacrificial altar which makes them firstfruits unto God.
No souls until then were ever in the prosees of assessing the heavenly realm which makes them firstfruits.
We also know these souls are NOT members of the harvest (Old Covenant Israel) but cuts of the firstfruits (New Covenant Israel) because firstfruits do not flow the harvest. The firstfruits are cut first, then flows the harvest. One thing must be said here. According to our old traditional views the harvest is good and rotten by now.
The process of resurrection begun with Jesus and continued during the first century with the firstfruits believers (James 1:18, Rev. 7:14) Satan's binding prevented him from hindering the spread of this gospel message which declared LIFE and VICTORY OVER DEATH (1 Cor. 15:54-57).
Because of the start of the New Covenant at the death of Christ man now began to pass for death unto life Roman 6:4 and a process of accessing the heavenly realm.
For example, when Stephen was stoned he called upon the Lord and said, (Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!) Acts 7:59 These firstfruits like Stephen remained in the out court until the time of the full harvest. (Revelation 20:11-14)
Originally posted by TScott
Hoonbaba,
You should read the similarities between Daniel's visions in chapter 7 of his book and those of John in Revelation.
Particularly,
Daniel 7:24--And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Revelation 17:12--And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
It's like these guys had the same dreams, 500 years apart.
Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I got a question! This is one I've been wondering about for awhile.
Ok, Paul in Romans 8 and elsewhere makes a big deal of partial redemption, the "already, not yet" paradigm. In Romans 8 he says,
As for why pain exists on earth, I really don't know. But I don't think this is a preterist issue, considering God wills disaster to happen (amos 3:6). Anyway, I think someone else can better answer your questions =)
Originally posted by Hoonbaba
I just read the entire book of Revelation just a few minutes ago and I was wondering about the 24 elders. Who are they? Are they part of the first fruits who were somehow in heaven?
This is another good question brother. No the 24 elders are not apart of the first fruits they are representatives of both the Old and New covenant. We most remember two thing. (1) There were martyrs for God in both the Old and New covenant (Revelation 16:6). Old covenant Israel had for forsaken God and had killed both the prophets and the saints. (2) The promises of God were made to those from both the Old and New covenants.
While John doesn't relate the identity of the (two witnesses in Revelation 11: I believe they too are representatives of both the Old and New covenant. It seems most likely, since Elijah had begun the line of prophets in the Old Covenant who called on Israel to repent. And John the Baptist had begun the line of the saints in the New Covenant who called on Israel to repent. Like the 24 elders I and others believe the two witnesses are also representatives of both Old and New covenant Israel.
Also, would the firstfruits who were under the altar have anything to do with Heb 12:22-24?
The Hebrews 12 passage makes it clear that the believers of their time were among thousands of angels and even the church of the first born.
For a while, I've been wondering how was it possible for Heb 12:22-24 to be a reality at the time of it's writing, while Revelation 21:2 wasn't a reality at the time. They both appear to be speaking of the same thing. I'm guessing this may have something to do with the 'already/not yet' dilemma (?)
God bless!
-Jason
You are right they both are speaking of firstfruits the church of the first born. While Revelation tells the saints about their present reality after death. Man now began the process of access to the heavenly realm. The writer of Hebrew tell the saints were they stand (in this life)figuratively in Heb 12:22-24 however they are both speaking about the same thing.
Originally posted by Hoonbaba
I just read the entire book of Revelation just a few minutes ago and I was wondering about the 24 elders. Who are they? Are they part of the first fruits who were somehow in heaven?
-Jason