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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Actually, futurists are equally or more symbolic concerning Revelation than preterists.

    Next, futurists read Matthew 24 entirely as an allegory. Jesus clearly taught that his apostles would live through the events spoken of in Matt 24. The LITERAL greek mandates that it is the apostles to whom AND FOR WHOM Jesus says all those things. There was a literal Judaea in the apostles time -- not so today. So futurists must lift the entire chapter out of its literal grammatical context and re-apply it to some future generation never mentioned in the text. The "YOU" that is spoken to in nearly half the verses of MATT 24 is the apostles, yet futurists deny the literal reading of the text and re-apply it to someone else. So I would argue that futurists are perhaps equally or even MORE non-literal in their approach to the N.T. endtimes passages.



    We know for SURE that the gospel was preached by them to all nations (Col 1:23; 1:5-6; Rom 10:17-18; 1 Tim 3:16). They were promised by Jesus Christ that they would witness the preaching of the gospel to all nations, even starting at Jerusalem (Luke 24:46-49). Paul, also, was promised that he would accomplish the task of taking the gospel to the ends of the earth (Acts 13:46-47). So we know that they fulfilled Matt 24:9-14 (all) and were indeed hated by all the nations.


    The apostles were promsed they would see it all in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34). If they did not then Jesus Christ erred. If Christ did NOT fulfill those promises that he so clearly made to his living breathing apostles, and did not do so within their generation, then He simply is not the Son of God and you should begin looking for another faith.


    Finally, your posts are very long (IMHO). Consider making a few points at a time so others can fairly answer them. To list 20 objections all at once is impractical for a board, so far as I can see.
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
  3. Good point GW. I am not saying that Psaml6 is trying to doing this howere most futurist do NOT stay on one subject at a time. They jump all over the Bible in order to make a (smoke screen) with the hope that you cannot spend the right amount of time to answer their questions. I agree stay on one subjuct at a time.
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Yup. Psalm 6 is doing some major cutting and pasting from another site or sites (I've read the stuff before). It is sad because it is not a dialogue that results, but a kind of "talking to an answering machine" that occurs.

    Psalm, God bless you, but let's have a dialogue.

    Thanks,
    GW
     
  5. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    You can't have a dialogue with someone who is close minded. My post was long, yeah, and I did get some of it from other sites, but i did look it up myself, and I agree with what they are saying. And I was not trying to committ a smokescreen. It's okay for you to jump around but not me. Okay, I'm done with this discussion. If you post here, I won't respond. I care for you as brothers in Christ, and I hope not to have offended anyone. I interpret the Bible one way, you interpret it another way, case closed. No one knows if I'm right, or you're right. We'll all know one day, but won't care. We should not fight with each other, and i apologize for it. We should be more worried about people accepting Christ as Savior. Like I said, I'm done here. If you need my help defending the faith, PM me. God bless us all.
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Christ's richest blessings to you Psalm 6!

    Your brother in Jesus the Christ,
    GW
     
  7. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    You guys crack me up. I have dealt with you 70AD people for 2 years now. You guys should be polticians. Rule #1 If you want to be a preterist you can never give a easy simple answer to a question. You must bring forth passages from the OT and mix them with the NT and then through in a little greek and then add anology after anology stir it all around then out come a response that general doesnt even touch the question that has been asked.

    The other thing that entices people to become preterist is because they feel like they have found a whole new meaning found in gods word. Most people like challenges and so they spend all their days figuring out how to make this view sound as logical as possible. Basical they become obsessed with it and it is all they want to do. It seems to me that most of the preterist in here have clearly stated that their view is not something thats going to put your salvation in jepordy. However there are some preterist that do beleive that if you do not understand this relized escatology or accept it after it has been taught to you then you do put your salvation in jepordy.

    There is one thing that the preterist are correct on. There are a lot of verses that point to the destruction of Jeruslem and have Joels prophecy in the background. However, they would like you to think that anything and everything revolves around 70AD and this just isnt true. I will post some more arguements latter. If you look at the post I did earlier you will see some of these lame answer to SOME of my statments/question. I hope someone will actually give a real answer to some of my questions. You will have to better than what you did on my marriage question. I have all kind of historical data around the 1 century which I listed that states that Christins were still looking for the 2nd comming after 70AD. You can try and dismiss this if you will, but where is your 1st century historcal reference that even hints at the 2nd coming happening at 70AD? Why was Felix afraid? There are many other strong arguements that you failed to touch in last post. Well thats enough for now. I guess we will just have to wait to see out creative you become on walking around with lots of words and not really answering the questions. :)
     
  8. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    No disrespect, but futurism is the real crack up. Futurism makes the entire Olivet Discourse an allegory that renders irrelevant the promises Jesus made to his very contemporaries, the apostles. Every word Jesus utters in the Olivet is a direct promise to his apostles, and there is no question that they understood it that way. Futurists come along and DENY that, turning the Olivet instead into an allegory for some generation thousand of years removed from the generation and people who were promised by Jesus to live through the events spoken.

    Preterists let scripture interpret scripture. Period. Futurists do what is called "newspaper exegesis" or "tabloid exegesis." Futurists, ASUMING the eschatological passages are now happening, go through every newspaper headline and UFO sighting and impose it back upon the scriptures in one gigantic comedy of errors. Nothing is more fun than following the history of failed futurist predictions in Church history, from Justin and Irenaeus to Scofield and Hal Lindsey.


    The entire Olivet Discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. When one does their homework in cross-referencing all the relevant passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 there is no room whatsover for an interpretation of the Discourse beyond AD 70.



    My answer to the marriage question was precise. "THAT AGE" meant the New Covenant Age beyond the Law (the post-AD 70 era) and the entire question was about the state of the dead and the afterlife once that age arrived.

    Next, it is entirely true that the Catholic creeds settled on a yet future Advent (2nd Advent). However neither the O.T. prophets nor the apostles ever imagined such a thing. And, there were plenty of Christians both in our N.T. letters and in the various "unorthodox" sects of early Christianity that were living with the idea of an entirely fulfilled Messianic eschatology. The Corinthians didn't care about the future resurrection of the dead and even doubted Paul's teaching on it. They were totally immersed in the blessings that had come from the Cross and from the gospel's miraculous application in their lives. The Thessalonians believed the Day of Christ already had come as of 2 Thess 2:1-2. Variations of fulfilled eschatology can be seen in the writings of the ECFs, and even Chrysostom and others seemed to believe in a fulfilled 2nd advent at least at some point in their lives. For sure, MOST the early Church Fathers believed the great tribulation had occurred at AD66-70.

    Finally, Felix was scared because Paul said the judgment was ABOUT TO come! (greek mello= "to be about to be"]. God was going to bring many disasters upon their world and indeed already was (Acts 11:28, etc). Anyone familiar at all with first century history knows that the entire empire almost collapsed in the 60sAD after an era of the Pax Romana (the famous Roman Peace). Earthqakes were destroying whole cities. Wars broke out all over the empire. 4 emperor-gods were overthrown in a single year by treacherous deaths. So on and so forth. The Roman historians and Josephus write that the nearly everyone was perplexed throughout the whole empire by nearly sudden devastations of famines, plagues, and wars after an era of calm command under the Caesars.
     
  9. Psalm6 your above statement is wrong again. The Jews who know and understand the Bible agree with us and say we are right. The Jewish rabbis have taunted Christians throughout church history saying Jesus can't be their Messiah, since the Messiah would accomplish redemption, and judgement, in one generation with no gaps, delays, parentheses of postponements. The full establishment of the Kingdom could not be delayed. (The Real Messiah. Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973. page 15).

    Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

    Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

    So according to todays Jews and the Old Testament prophets of God the preterist view is right.
     
  10. Cougan you are the one trying to dismiis 2nd century histocal referencs which tell why the 1st century church were still looking for the coming of the Lord.

    Was the (second advent) idea the original understand of the apostolic church, or was it just an invention of the mid-second century fathers? Notice what this writers says about this subject. (The thought of a postponement of the Parousia appears all through 2 Clement but here it is expressly mentioned for the first time. Thus about the middle of the second century a decisive turning point occurs one which can be compared in significance to all other great turning points, including the Reformation). Obviously we cannot fix this turning point precisely at the year 150 for it took a while until the thought caught hold every where.

    (But a development does begin with the Shepherd of Hermas which could not be stopped a development at the end of which we stand today). As soon as the thought of a postponement of the Parousia was uttered once and indeed not only incidentally but thoroughly presented in an entire writing it developed its own life and power. At first people looked at it as only a brief postponement, as the Shepherd of Hermas clearly expressed. But soon as the end of the world did not occur it was conceived of as a longer and longer period until finally this is today's situation nothing but the thought of a postponement exists in people's consciousness. [Kurt Aland. A History of Christianity. (2 vols) Vol 1 page 87-102].

    Futurist have long dismised these kind of clear statements. May be one of these days one of you futurist will answer my questions. Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a first coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" A vital point, totally ignored, futurist is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries. :scratch:

    And where in the New Testament does it say Jesus would not return in the same nature-manner as he apprared in the Old Testament? May be one of these days a futurist brother will answer my questions.
     
  11. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Hey Mani, don't hold your breathe bro, I asked our futurist friends a question 30 posts back [#140], and still no reply. I also asked it in another part of the board -and guess what NOTHING :( .

    As for the theme of redemption and judgment being two aspects of the one event, you only have to read Act 2 to see this, where Peter says: "this IS that" -most futurists stop at verse 18, and yet verses 19-21 CLEARLY show the "judgmental" side of the one same event -Joel using "cosmic" [apocalyptic] language in describing the nature of this covenantal world changing event. Not forgetting that "Pentecost" was far reaching.

    PS: Just like Christ's birth and his parousia, two aspects or "book-ends" of the ONE Last Days ESCHATON of God. Gal 4:4 & Eph 1:10

    davo
     
  12. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Manifest, I said I was done. Do you not know how to drop something? LEAVE IT BE. I told you once I was not responding to anything about futurism or preterism. Let it go man, let it go. I don't care who the Jews do or don't agree with. All I'm concerned about it spreading the gospel, and my relationship with Christ. That's all.
     
  13. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    Hello everyone. I am glad to be on this forum.

    I think we all need to realize the importance of what we are talking about here. A previous poster said that our eschatological view does not matter as long as we walk with Jesus. It does matter, and it matters a great deal. The ultimate question eschatology seeks to answer is not just the timing of when Jesus returned or will return. It is the question of how much of our salvation we can experience in this life.

    If we take the preterist view, the answer is pretty well near all of it. Spiritual death has been abolished, Satan has been defeated, and the kingdom of God is a present reality. If we take the futurist view our answer must be that we cannot really experience much of our salvation at all. The real glory awaits a future dispensation.

    Most if not all futurists I know are not pure futurists. They may believe Jesus¡¦ return is yet to happen, but they are closer to the preterist understanding of our present experience. For example, not to long ago I was sharing with some folks about the kingdom of God from a preterist perspective. I told them about the present reality of the kingdom of God and the defeat of Satan, although I did not mention eschatology. There was one gentleman that grew so excited that he could hardly contain himself. I thought he was going to get up and do a dance. After I was done, he came up and told me how much he agreed with my conclusions. Yet, in the next breath, he started talking about Hal Lindsey. I only smiled.

    Both futurists and preterists believe that the fullness of salvation was accomplished at the cross. (Futurists are every bit as much in Christ as the preterists and visa versa. Therefore, we should treat each other with the respect this fact affords.) However, both futurists and preterists agree that some aspects of salvation are consummated at the second coming. We see these things in I Corinthians 15:

    20But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ¡¦s at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For ¡§He has put all things under His feet.¡¨„T But when He says ¡§all things are put under Him,¡¨ it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
    1 Corinthians 15:20 through 1 Corinthians 15:28 (NKJV)

    Here we see at the second coming the defeat of Satan (God puts an end to the spiritual rulers and authorities that Paul talks about in many of his writings.), the coming of the kingdom of God, and the abolition of death.

    The pure futurist looks at these things and says they are unobtainable in our current dispensation. The preterist says that the Parousia (His coming or presence) has occurred, therefore we can know victory over Satan, the present reality of the kingdom of God, and even victory over death-not physical but spiritual death which is separation from His presence.

    We do not have time to discuss all of these issues in this post, so let us talk about just one-the defeat of Satan. The preterist and the pure futurist look different places to find the Devil. The futurist looks above himself. He, like one previous poster on this board, thinks that this world thoroughly belongs to Satan. He has not been cast down. The futurist may acknowledge that Satan was positionally defeated at Calvary, but experientially, he is basically the same Devil that he was before the cross. In fact, he is destined to grow stronger and stronger until he is basically running things. His fate may be sealed, but we have no hope of seeing that fate in this dispensation.

    The preterist looks at a different place to find Satan. The enemy is no longer above. He is beneath our feet. He has been thoroughly defeated, bound, and crushed. This was accomplished at the cross (Colossians 2:15) but fully realized at the Parousia. This is why Paul said to the Romans who were anxiously awaiting the Lord¡¦s return, ¡§The God of peace will SOON crush Satan under your feet (Romans 16;20).¡¨

    Therefore, the preterist sees the church above and the Devil below. Consequently, they see no hope for Satan and great hope for the church. What hope do you give a defeated foe? How should you treat a foe that is beaten and crushed beneath your feet? Yet, what hope do you give a people who as Paul said are ¡§seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus¡¨ and who in Him are ¡§above all rule and authority (See Ephesians one and two)?¡¨ We believe that the already present kingdom of God has prevailed and will prevail over the whole earth through the church.

    If you look at history, which is His Story not the Devil¡¦s, from a broad perspective, you will see this indeed is happening. It is slow. Yet, we are seeing the kingdom advancing. Do we realize that more people have been saved in the last fifty years alone that in the previous 2000 combined?

    So, which is it? Is Satan above you or below you? If are a futurist and you say below, you are not so far from preterist thought as you think.

    I hope to discuss in future posts, with the help of other preterists on this forum, victory over death and the present reality of the kingdom of God, but that must wait for another time.
     
  14. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
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    Hey, great to have you aboard, Ozark! I look forward to any further insights you have to offer.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Great to have you along Ozark!

    We also post in the eschatology section, so see you there too.

    With you in the victory of Christ,
    GW
     
  16. Psalm6 you said you would not respond to any of G.W. post not all preterist post. It is ok tho brother I do understand when a futurist cannot respond with the Bible.
     
  17. A man Ozarkpreterist and glad you could join us. This is really what the preterist view is all about. "The compleat salvation of God." Preterist preach, and teach, the (Full gosple of God). :clap:
     
  18. Hi davo believe me I will not hold my breathe because God's prophets "the Jews" never teached a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time in the Old Testament.

    No futurist has (ever been able) to find a Bible which states that God's prophets in the Old Testament ever teached a "second coming to fulfill the rest of the things he started. Or a Bible which says in the New Testament that Jesus would not return in the same manner-nature as he appeared in the Old Testament. And they never will. :eek:
     
  19. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    177 posts in response to 34 verses of the Bible (which are interpreted in 2 inconclusive manners). People we get the point.

    Get back into the word or something more constructive. PLEASE!
     
  20. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day Ozark! :wave: and welcome -good to have you "on-board". Yes, the "fulfilled" message is where it's at:

    Acts 5:20 (NIV) "Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life."

    :clap:

    davo
     
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