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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Good question. I haft to go back to work but I will get back too you on this.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Psalms6, I noticed an inconsistancy in a couple of your posts and wondered if you could clarify?

    followed by

    PSalms6, The Bible says "then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven, so whatever. It says He shall come on the clouds of Heaven, not broadway, not hades, not the "sky" but heaven.

    Now, how exactly can you be so adamate that "heaven" can only mean "heaven" when it concerns Elijah, but can be translated as "sky" in Matt 24?

    Thanks,
    P70
     
  3. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

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    P70, I said I wasn't responding to any more posts on here, and I guess you didn't see where I said that. I know what I said, and I guess the only answer is up. Most people think heaven is up, so you would have to go up to get there. There's a half-hearted attepmt, because I attended the funeral of my friend today. I know you didn't know, so it's okay. But I'm not commenting any more. I thank everyone for their prayers, because I felt the spirit there today, and the family seemed to just glow...if that makes sense. Thanks everyone.
     
  4. That makes alot of sense to me. It sounds like his family knows he is in a better place. In the very "presence of the Lord." And that is what the preterist view is really about.
     

  5. Hi Hoonbaba. Now back to your good question. Your question really goes back to what GW, and I, have been saying all this time. The key to understanding any passage of Scripture has always been a good grasp of the historical setting, language, and culture, of Old Testament Israel.

    We know these souls who were "under the altar" (Rev.6:9) were firstfruits because they were in the "outer court." They were technically covered by the blood of Christ positionally being under the sacrificial altar. By being placed under the sacrificial altar they were the firstfruits to be brought as an offering to God.

    Another picture which shows these souls are the firstfruits is they were not in the Holy of Holies in the heavenly realm but remained in the outer which shows they were not in the very presence of God but a first offering to God.

    We also know these souls were firstfruits unto God because before the sacrifices of Christ no man was ever under the sacrificial altar which makes them firstfruits unto God.
    No souls until then were ever in the prosees of assessing the heavenly realm which makes them firstfruits.

    We also know these souls are NOT members of the harvest (Old Covenant Israel) but cuts of the firstfruits (New Covenant Israel) because firstfruits do not flow the harvest. The firstfruits are cut first, then flows the harvest. One thing must be said here. According to our old traditional views the harvest is good and rotten by now.

    The process of resurrection begun with Jesus and continued during the first century with the firstfruits believers (James 1:18, Rev. 7:14) Satan's binding prevented him from hindering the spread of this gospel message which declared LIFE and VICTORY OVER DEATH (1 Cor. 15:54-57).

    Because of the start of the New Covenant at the death of Christ man now began to pass for death unto life Roman 6:4 and a process of accessing the heavenly realm.

    For example, when Stephen was stoned he called upon the Lord and said, (Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!) Acts 7:59 These firstfruits like Stephen remained in the out court until the time of the full harvest. (Revelation 20:11-14)
     
  6. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    I got a question! This is one I've been wondering about for awhile.

    Ok, Paul in Romans 8 and elsewhere makes a big deal of partial redemption, the "already, not yet" paradigm. In Romans 8 he says,

    Now, I have a feeling that preterism says that the "glory that will be revealed," takes place at AD 70, and that the hope and waiting "for...adoption as sons" is also fulfilled. However, this means extraordinary things for the theology of healing. The "redemption of our bodies," the groaning pains of childbirth, and the creation's liberation "from its bondage to decay" into "glorious freedom" (including the lion lying down with the lamb, a very common theme in apocalyptic literature) should have already happened. If it has, how? My cat still kills mice. When will that stop?

    Healing from sickness would be the right of every believer, as the charismatics preach, and not based on God's case by case decision, because our redemption is full, and we no longer have only the firstfruits of redemption (spiritual redemption), but also the physical results. What say you?
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
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    Hi Didaskomenos,

    Great question!! Actually I'm still pondering about some of that as well. But Rev 22:2 depicts a healing of nations, which implies that in the 'age to come' pain would still be experienced, but that's where the healing comes in =)

    By the way the gospel message is mentioned in Rev 22:17 :)

    Anyway, Rev 22:15 also says that evildoers would also live in the age to come.

    I totally agree!! I'm all for divine healing, considering the fact that the greek word for 'saved' as in 'those who stand firm till the end will be saved' is the same as 'made whole' or 'healed', which is mentioned in Matthew 9:21 :)

    Also, the age to come is classified as one with miracles (Heb 6:4-5)

    So personally I believe healing is something we all should experience, whether it's physical, emotional, or spiritual. But for some reason God just doesn't always heal (most likely to build one's character).

    But as for why pain still exists, I don't fully know. (perhaps to build OUR character) :)

    -Jason
     
  8. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    Well, Jason, I go to a "Third Wave" church currently going further in to "charismatic." I don't have a problem with God healing (I am sure that he works today). However, the fact that healing is not universal among Believers seems to indicate it is a firstfruit, but not yet a guarantee and right. I've heard it so many times (among people who don't even believe that we're in that new age!) that healing WILL happen if we accept it, or believe it, or act in some other way. That's not what Paul says happens, until the redemption of the body, and it's something that's not happening today. So how can the body be redeemed yet? And don't give me that bunk about, "If you truly believe, you'll be healed." I'm sure we all know of instances of people who believe in their "right to healing" like they believe in their own existence, and still aren't healed. So either the body is redeemed (which really sounds like it will be free from ailment in the first place) and in NO instance will sickness (or, ostensibly, death) prevail (and they both sure seem to), or the time Paul is referring to is yet to come. Can full preterists still believe in another age yet to come?

    Very interesting. Thanks for that info!

    "I want to believe" :))) in preterism, but this is my biggest problem with it.
     
  9. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi Didaskomenos :)

    I think you may be touching upon several different doctrines, one of which is the resurrection of the dead. I believe once we die, we'll receive our imperishable bodies (1 Cor 15:42) and go to heaven.

    "I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (1 Cor 15:50)

    "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Cor 15:44)

    "What you sow does not come to life unless it dies" (1 Cor 15:36)

    "the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it/" (Ecc 12:7)

    "All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return" (Ecc 3:20)

    As for why pain exists on earth, I really don't know. But I don't think this is a preterist issue, considering God wills disaster to happen (amos 3:6). Anyway, I think someone else can better answer your questions =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
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    Manifestation1*AD70,

    Wow...that's really interesting!! =)

    I think I might want to study that a bit more =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  11. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    Hiya Didaskomenos:

    Romans 8:14-25 is the exact parallel to Gal 4:1-5:5. The items mentioned in both passages are the same items and speak of yet-future things hoped for by the apostle Paul. Both passages show that sonship, redemption, etc. were NOT yet fulfilled. We know, for example, that the redemption was being held on earnest only (Eph 1:13-14; 4:30), but not in realization. To make a couple quick points...

    #1) Romans 8:23 mentions a "redemption of OUR BODY" (singular), meaning the redemption of the Church, including both the Holy-Ghost-filled firstfruits and also those saints that lived PRIOR to Pentecost that had never been filled with the Spirit.

    #2) The "groaning pains" were not of the natural childbirth, but were groanings of the Holy Spirit who was causing them to cry out "Abba Father" while waiting for adoption to occur (Gal 4:6; Rom 8:23, 8:15-16). The complete adoption/sonship was yet future for the Church (Rom 8:23-25).

    #3) The "creation" groaning was that group of groaning saints that lived PRIOR to the Holy Spirit's blessing at Pentecost as well as the Spirit-filled 1st century Christians. Paul says: "NOT ONLY THEY, but ourselves also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit..." Paul is talking about the saints -- they were the creation to be delivered from bondage and corruption. To see that these two groups were intimately linked to an endtimes blessing, compare to Heb 11:39-40.


    #4) The bondage and corruption of Romans 8 is the bondage and corruption of the Law of Moses which the Church was struggling to break free from in Galatians 4. Compare Gal 4:3, 9 to Rom 8:15,21.


    #5) Healing from sickness is a New-Covenant-work of the Holy Spirit as governed by his granting of charisms (1 Cor 12-14).


    With you in the riches of Christ,
    GW
     
  12. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    I just read the entire book of Revelation just a few minutes ago and I was wondering about the 24 elders. Who are they? Are they part of the first fruits who were somehow in heaven?

    Also, would the firstfruits who were under the altar have anything to do with Heb 12:22-24?

    The Hebrews 12 passage makes it clear that the believers of their time were among thousands of angels and even the church of the first born.

    For a while, I've been wondering how was it possible for Heb 12:22-24 to be a reality at the time of it's writing, while Revelation 21:2 wasn't a reality at the time. They both appear to be speaking of the same thing. I'm guessing this may have something to do with the 'already/not yet' dilemma (?)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  13. TScott

    TScott Curmudgeon

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    Hoonbaba,

    You should read the similarities between Daniel's visions in chapter 7 of his book and those of John in Revelation.

    Particularly,

    Daniel 7:24--And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


    Revelation 17:12--And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    It's like these guys had the same dreams, 500 years apart.
     
  14. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi TScott,

    I'm aware of the connection between those verses, but I don't see how that has anything to do with my previous post.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     

  15. Wow now that is deep? Most people do not see the partial redemption that Paul is talking about in the Bible. Most people have been taught to believe that full redemption happen at the cross. However that is not what the Bible says (Hebrews 9:28) Good insites Didaskomenos. :clap:
     
  16. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

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    Jason,

    You said

    "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us (Romans 8:18 KJV)."

    "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ…(1 Peter 1:6-7)."

    You said that presence and purpose of pain is not a preterist issue. I think perhaps it is at least indirectly. My question is that since the revelation of Jesus Christ has come and the glory that Paul speaks of has been revealed, has the purpose for pain and suffering changed? If so, can anybody define the purpose of trials before the Parousia and after?
     
  17.  
  18. Hi Jason. This is another good question brother. No the 24 elders are not apart of the first fruits they are representatives of both the Old and New covenant. We most remember two thing. (1) There were martyrs for God in both the Old and New covenant (Revelation 16:6). Old covenant Israel had for forsaken God and had killed both the prophets and the saints. (2) The promises of God were made to those from both the Old and New covenants.

    While John doesn't relate the identity of the (two witnesses in Revelation 11: I believe they too are representatives of both the Old and New covenant. It seems most likely, since Elijah had begun the line of prophets in the Old Covenant who called on Israel to repent. And John the Baptist had begun the line of the saints in the New Covenant who called on Israel to repent. Like the 24 elders I and others believe the two witnesses are also representatives of both Old and New covenant Israel.
     
  19. The time had come for the harvest. What most people over look in the New Testament is there is a (two-fold) aspect for the harvest. In other words the reaping of the harvest has two aspects to it.

    The first is the reaping of the harvest which involves separation, and judgment, on unfaithful Old Covenant Israel who are on the earth. (Revelation 14:14-20)

    The second reaping of the harvest involves the souls of the unfaithful and faithful Old Covenant Israel who were in Hades, Abraham's bosom Luke 16:19-31 unto their eternal reward.

    The first reaping of the harvest is a time of separation of the wheat from the chaff on the earth. John the baptizer had foretold, "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear the threshing floor, gathering his wheat into his barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Mt. 3:12)

    This harvest would involve the separation of unfaithful Israel from faithful Israel. This separation corresponds to the passages in Mt. 3:12; 13:30; 21:33-44; 22:1-14; 24:31; and involves those who's names were not written in the book. (Exodus 32:33)

    The first is the reaping of the earth's harvest or the harvest of the vineyard "national Israel." (Rev. 14:14) The application of the vine goes back to the time the nation of Israel left Egypt. David speaking of God, said, "You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it. You cleared the ground for it, and it took root and filled the land.... Your vine is cut down, it is burned with fire; at your rebuke your people perish." (Psalms 80:8-9, 16)

    Isaiah tells of God planting a vineyard that yielded only bad fruit. He said God would take away its hedge and it would be destroyed. He affirms that the vineyard was the house of Israel. (Isaiah 5:1-7) They would be the grapes of the vine of the land who would be trampled. The blood flowing as high as the horses' bridles would portray the gravity of this judgment. The distance of 1600 stadia (about 180 miles) just happens to be the approximate length of the land of Palestine. (Revelation 14:20)

    The second is the reaping of the harvest of souls who are in Hades, Abraham's bosom Luke 16:19-31 unto their eternal reward. (Revelation 20:11-15) God tells Daniel of his plans for his people. Even to that time. And at that time (your people) shall be delivered. Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The term (your people) here is a reface to Old Covenant Israel the Jews. Some were raised from Hades, Abraham's bosom to everlasting life with God which all the faithful saints of the Old Covenant looked for. (Hebrews 11:8-16)
     
  20. To any Preterist who may be interested Ed Stevens is doing a studie on the repture and why there were no writting by any of the saint's 30 years after the return of the Lord.

    If you would be interested in seeing some of his studies on this deep subject contack me at [email protected] And I will send it to you.
     
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