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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Is that the one titled, "Silence that Demands a Verdict?" =)

    -Jason
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi fellow preterists.

    I think we can all agree that we are grateful for the work Ed Stevens has done and continues to do for the movement.

    However, this recent paper of his is three steps backwards in the field of realized eschatology. It is a classic argument from silence with nothing but speculations. Each and every step of his reasoning could be countered with equally (or more) persuasive arguments.

    By and large, Ed seems to have retained dispensationalist (or non-biblical) ideas about the NATURE of the return of Christ. We can never forget that these people were jews who expected Jesus to return in the glory of Yahweh. These jews have a thorough history of interpreting their historic outcomes, trumphs, and vindications as Yahweh's doings. In every case! Yet Yahweh never had to be optically seen for them to say He came and shot arrows and drew his sword down upon the heads of their enemies and such. Never.

    Ed writes his article as if the Old Testament language shouldn't set the context for how the N.T. jews expected their vindication to occur. Just read Isaiah 34 to see what Yahweh did to O.T. Edom! Was any of that a visible, optical Yahweh? No. But look at the language they use. It is written as if Yahweh is right there on earth doing these things in a physical/literal sense. But He is NOT -- these things are spiritually literal.

    The context for understanding Christ's return is as "THE DAY OF YAHWEH." Once we grasp this fact we then are forced to look to the O.T. comings of Yahweh to set the stage for how Jesus returned at AD 70. If we simply understand Yahweh's doings amongst men in the O.T. we understand Christ's doing amongst men in AD 66-70.

    So, preterists will need to quickly begin responding to Ed's paper, section by section, to expose the obvious weakness of the speculations.

    The evidence for Christ's return is the scriptures themselves and especially the book of Revelation which claims Christ's judgment was underway at the time St. John wrote. The book of Revelation IS the apostolic verification of the Lord's return. Furthermore, no one can debate the fact that AD 66-70 was the greatest Day of the Lord in history. For futurists to say that the "Day of the Lord" the apostles were talking is not the one that happened in their lifetimes at AD66-70 is absurd. Only those ignorant of the Bible can assert such nonsense.

    I encourage folk to visit planetpreterist.com to engage the comments and articles over Ed Stevens' recent tract.
     
  3. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    For some reason it never occurred to me that 1 Thess 4:17 says: "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

    Verse 16 says the dead in Christ will rise first. Then verse 17 begins by saying, "After that". That wouldn't necessarily mean immediately after (as many dispensationalists believe) would it?

    I didn't really spend time looking up the Greek, but what does it mean by 'will be caught up'? Is that referring to when we all pass away and go to heaven (Ecc 12:7)?

    -Jason
     
  4. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    One more thing:

    How does preterists interpret Rev 1:7?

    "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. " (Rev 1:7)

    I've heard plenty of different interpretations:

    Every eye will see him, when we face judgement (Hebrews 9:27)

    Another interpretation is that 'see him' is not a literal thing, since nobody saw Yahweh on the 'Day of Yahweh'. I guess that works but I don't find it all too convincing.

    As for tribes, it can be translated as 'the tribes of Israel' (every instance in the NT seems to tell us this), and earth can be understood as 'land' as other NT verses give solid reasoning.

    But the big thing I'm concerned about is 'every eye'. How do we interpret that? I looked up the word for 'every' or 'all' as used in Rev 1:7 on this page:

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=

    And it gave an interesting comment:

    So that's understandable as well, but how can we be sure every eye in this verse would or wouldn't mean literally every eye?

    -Jason
     
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Paul always keeps the living and the dead separate, especially when talking about Resurrection of "THE DEAD."

    In both 1 Cor 15:50-52 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 only the dead get raised. The living do not but are caught up afterwards in the air (heavenlies) to be with the raised saints. How long afterwards? Paul does not say. But Paul clearly places a timeframe between the living and the dead by saying the living cannot precede the dead. Paul had already taught that no one experiences heavenly spiritual bodies without dying (1 Cor 15:35-44). Of course -- this doctrine is called the Resurrection of the Dead.

    It is appointed to each man to die once (Heb 9:27). That passage of Heb 9:27 was written by someone who clearly believed he was going to live until the Parousia occurred. So why would someone who believed he was going to live until the Parousia happened write Heb 9:27? It has to be because Heb 9:27 is absolutely consistent with Paul's teaching on Resurrection of the Dead -- namely, that it is a doctrine concerning the dead. It's obvious, right? So all must die to receive a spiritual, heavenly body even as Christ.
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi Jason, others.

    The cloud-coming of Rev 1:7 that every eye was to see is cleary depicted by St. John in Rev 14:14-20 -- obviously not a physical/literal event.

    Also, I have to continue to assert that those who think that seeing Christ's return must be a physical/literal incarnation of some kind are simply not reading the Old Testament. One can't hardly read five chapters of the Old Testamnent with out coming across a depiction of Yahweh showing up on earth and performing some event that is described as physical/literal (try Isa 34 or 2 Sam 22:8-16 for example). Or how about this TYPICAL statement:

    Zechariah 9:13-14
    When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. And JEHOVAH SHALL BE SEEN OVER THEM, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning:...


    Yet Yahweh never did any of those things is a physical literal way. We are even told MANY times that all people would marvel at Yahweh's comings. This is jewish apocalyptic language and was the norm for how they understood and knew of God's appearings.

    GW
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Here's another common Jehovah coming to ponder the nature of:


    Psalms 64:6-9
    They plot injustice, saying, "We have made a perfect plan!" Surely man's mind and heart are cunning. BUT GOD WILL SHOOT AT THEM. THEY WILL BE SUDDENLY STRUCK DOWN WITH AN ARROW. Their own tongues shall ruin them. All WHO SEE THEM will shake their heads. ALL MANKIND SHALL BE AFRAID. They shall declare THE WORK OF GOD, And shall wisely ponder WHAT HE HAS DONE.



    When did this happen? In David's time. Does history record God's bow and arrow attack? No. Why? Because no one can see Jehovah. But doesn't David say all would see it and be afraid and declare what God did? David indeed says this.

    Get the point? This is common jewish language -- apocalyptic language. It refers to REAL events in jewish history which the Jews saw as Jehovah's doings. They had eyes to see into the invisible workings of the true God of heaven and earth. Oh, that 21st century Christians had such understanding and "vision" instead of religious carnalities.
     
  8. I 100% agree with you here GW.
     
  9. You hit the nail dead on the head again :clap:
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi BJ,

    Thanks for sharing! I finally got all that cleared up :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  11. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    there`s alot of pages hear so I hope I don`t ask questions that have already been asked but I do have alot of questions. :confused:

    I love history so I can relate to a lot of preterist thinking although I don’t believe that Christ has returned, for servile reasons.

    The initial scriptures that was given by parousia can be seen in different ways and it would depend on ones interpretation of those scriptures. I am curious about other scriptures though that just don’t add up and I figure that this was the place to ask those questions.


    I am a little late to the conversation so I hope I don’t repeat questions already asked.

    First;
    2 Thessalonians ch 2:

    If Paul was saying just before the destruction of Jerusalem, there shall be a great falling away (I assume he ment of the roman empire) and then the man of sin would sit in the temple as though he was god, deceiving everyone.

    Who was the man of sin that sat in the temple of god between the time Paul said this and the time Jerusalem fell and jesus returned??

    Also;

    Paul said that this deceiver (man of sin) would be removed at Jesus return.

    Who was this man and when did Jesus remove him with the brightness of coming??


    Also;

    Doesn’t it say that his return will be like the lightening that lights up the sky and everyone is awear of it??

    Also;

    I hear someone calling jeruselum the apostate city of revelations but revelations tells me that this city will sit on seven hills and jeruselum does not sit on seven hills.

    So what does that mean because john was so obviously talking about Rome there???

    I have another million questions:D but I think I will see how I go with these.

    thanks

    BULWARK.
     
  12. In one of the most misunderstood chapters in out New Testament, John writes; But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

    Some would try and make two resurrections for each individual-one of the spirit and another of the physical body.

    One way to better understand the teaching of John's resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is to get a better grasp of the literary devices that are used by the writer to produce the desired results of the revelation he is seeking to unveil. One such device is chiasmas, which is a term that designates a literary figure or principle, which consist of "a placing crosswise" of words in a sentence or writing.

    The device of chiasmas can be seen under Articles at
    http://www.1newjerusalemministries.com/index.html
     

  13. Hi BULWARK :wave: I have time to just answer one question there are other here who will be glad to answer the rest.
    Sine we know the temple was destroyed in A.D.70, the "man of sin" had to be manifested before A.D.70. But how did the "man of sin" take his seat in the temple of God?

    First the question that should be asked then is what is the "seat" in the temple of God? The term seat is a Jewish symbol for power or religious authority (Matthew 23:1-3) Jesus is describing the way the religious leaders used their legislative seat to distort the law enslave the people. ( Matthew 23:2)

    In effect they were regarded as "gods" when they set in "Moses seat" but they became corrupt handlers of the holy Scripture (John 10:34-35 Psalm 82:6).

    Israel offered a daily sacrifice for Nero until the beginning of the war is a well attested fact of history. While Nero never ruled from Jerusalem in person it was nevertheless his seat in the sence of the Jews having given him their worship for a season.

    In this manner he is said to sit in the temple of God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God. Nero is also the result of the Jews worship when Jesus said; I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. (John 5:43)
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    Hi Bulwark, and God bless.

    Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 Timothy, the three John epistles, and Revelation were all written during the predestined endtimes apostasy and were written specifically to combat it by urging the faithful to stick to the faith in the face of the then-happening falling away. The early apostles knew and taught that the endtimes apostasy was a PREDESTINED falling away to perdition (total ruin and destruction) that was to happen in their generation. Jude points out in Jude 1:4 that it was occurring as was predestined -- Paul had taught that this was a key sign to look for in their near future (2 Thess 2:3 and Acts 20:28-31). They all knew this was coming and that it was predestined by God to happen to them (see also 2 Peter 2:1-3). It would follow the same pattern as the rebellion against Moses in the wilderness generation, which the apostles interpreted as a type for the AD 30-70 generation (see 1 Cor 10:1-14; Jude 1:5; Heb 3:7-4:11; Heb 10:26-39; Heb 12:18-29; 2 Peter 2 - all; )

    So we read passages like Heb 6:4-9, Revelation 22:10-11, Heb 10:26-39, Jude (all), and 2 Peter 2 knowing that they all speak of the PREDESTINED falling away that was happening right then and there in the mid-late 60s AD. Please look up those passages and note that they show zero time left for repentance if one fell away -- especially note Rev 22:10-11! Those passages all reflect what Jesus said was going to happen to them in Luke 13:23-28 and Matt 25:6-12 -- A TIME OF NO MERCY. They COULD NOT repent and be saved. It was too late.

    To answer your other questions...


    Abomination of Desolation -- FULFILLED!
    http://notdeceived.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=50&topic=34


    JERUSALEM IS BABYLON, THE GREAT CITY
    --even non-preterists recognize this, and also Protestants and Catholics alike recognize this. Read the following links:

    Could Jerusalem be Mystery Babylon?

    Avenging the Prophets: Jerusalem is Babylon

    The Whore of Babylon
     
  15. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hi guys,
    I just want to say that I am only interested in the truth and will always submit to identified truth so hear is the chance to show me that preterisim is the truth because up to date I have heard half of the Preterists speak with good knowledge and understanding of what they believe but the other half talk like followers that don’t know anything but what others have told them. Those types have made preterisim look like a cult to me but the educated ones have kept my ears open.
    If I see truth, I will believe it. I am not interested in denominations I am only interested in truth.

    Man AD70,
    I personally can’t see Nero in that equation at all.

    What were the lying signs and wonders that Nero did and how did Jesus remove Nero with the brightness of his coming??

    GW, thanks for those links, and the blessing.
    I will take a look at those links.

    I see what your saying about a falling away into apostasy but if this is true (as I think you are right there) then it appears this man of sin is reviled after the falling away.
    He is the son of perdition (like Judas, a false apostle). Nero wasn’t even classed as a Christian or a Jew to become the apostate apostle??
    It was the apostasy of the church and false apostles that Jesus and the apostles both warned us off and told us will come to past.

    The apostate time of Christianity wasn’t even in full swing until about 350 ad to 400 ad so how was it removed already if the apostasy of Christianity that we were warned about was in full swing within 200 yrs of when Jesus was supposed to have already returned to remove the apostasy of Christianity.

    Can someone explain this to me because it simply does not fit at all to my knowledge of the bible and church history??

    I will read the links but I find endless reading boring and would find better understanding with simply getting some questions answered and waighing it up with the bible and history.
    The big one for me is that it says that the wicked will be revealed, whom the lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy him with the brightness of his coming.

    How did this take place in 70 AD??

    What wickedness did Jesus revile concerning Nero and how did Jesus destroy Nero with the brightness of his coming???

    Also, how come this wickedness (from Rome) carried way past Jesus supposed return into the Dark Age or the apostate age?

    The split in Judaism between the law keepers and the apocalyptic Jews in the last 400 yrs of isreals history just can’t compare to the Dark Age apostate Christian age under the 10 Germanic kings and the pope.

    There is no other apostate age known to mans whole time of civilisation as the christian apostate of the Dark Age.

    I get a clear impression that Paul had given the Thessalonians the wrong Idea in the first letter and they thought Jesus was returning in there generation but Paul writes them again to settle them down and tell them that Jesus is not going to return in there time because first these things need to be fulfilled and then he will return.

    That is how I understand the motivation for both letters.

    I just can’t peace these together with any historical common scenes at all

    Peace :)

    BULWARK
     
  16. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Hi BULWARK,

    It's good to have an attitude of seeking after the truth, but as for someone needing to convince you of preterism, or any other "ism" that's a waste of time. You will only believe what you become convinced of -and that will only effectively happen as you study the scriptures for yourself. I for one am absolutely convinced Jesus returned in the time-frame He gave, as found in the Bible. There are variations within covenant eschatology as there is in any other school of eschatological thought.

    Anyway mate, good for you and happy hunting :wave:

    davo
     
  17. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hi Dave,

    My objective isn’t to get Preterists to convince me but rather help me understand why they believe Jesus has returned. Allot of what Preterists have said on the forum has made total scense to me and so I am interested to see how they see Jesus has already returned.

    That is so I understand them not so I can be convinced dave.

    I`m the convincer not the convincee :D ;) :p look at my questions and see dave who the convincer or the convincee is. :rolleyes: :kiss: j/k


    So, Dave, I do have a million questions that only a preterist could possibly answer because it is according to their doctrinal beliefs isn’t it. Shorly you aren’t going to tell me that I just need to read the bible to find preterist doctrine because that is like telling me all I need to do is read the bible and then I will see where Hal Lindsey was coming from.

    I’m Just looking for a preterist with the time and desire to show me the preterist doctrines so I can judge from the bible for my self, what it is that they believe and what they use to believe it , just like every other opposing doctrine from different denominations in the churchs.


    Is there a preterist willing to answer my questions in my last post with accuracy in detail because there is just no way I can just read the bible and see preterist doctrine on jesus returning
    . It has to be taught to you doesn’t it?
    It isn’t an obvious truth from scripture at all is it?
    Or people would have believed this in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century as well???

    Another question???

    How come the likes of timothy and clement didn`t testify of Jesus return or them being with him, were he is???

    Jesus said," I shall return and were I am you shall be also".

    How come all the saints didn`t go with Jesus or even preach that he had returned?? How come Tim and clement didn`t preach that Jesus had returned???

    Were they apostate???

    Lots of questions, millions of questions.

    So if I read the scriptures every single day for 12 years and sometimes for hours and hours a day (as I have done), how come I have never ever even seen a wink of anything like this.(the same as I can`t see Hal Lindseys Garbage)

    You can tell me there is no antichrist in Daniel 9 and I will believe it.

    Or Hal Lindsey was deluded and I will believe that.

    Or all the trib. Rapture ideas are garb. I will believe that.

    Or even a future anti Christ that will rule the world for 7 yrs. I will crack up laughing at that ignorant madness.

    But I can also not see were Jesus returned at the destruction of Jerusalem.

    I don`t believe it is even remotely there , even if you use all the symbolisim for the sun and moon not giving there light , it still doesn`t make scense to me.

    Even simply on the grounds that timothy and clement did not teach these things at all.

    On that alone I have a huge case against this Idea. Not to mention the other questions I asked in my last post and the hundreds of other questions swimming around in my head at the simple suggestion of the doctrine that jesus returned in 70 ad.

    Very curious

    BULWARK
     
  18. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hey Bulwark,

    I'll take a look at your questions and see what I can contribute. I think this is a great opportunity for all the preterists on this thread to help answer these genuine questions about numerous "difficulties" that futurist Christians have when trying to grapple with preterist thought. I hope you all will participate in this with me.

    I would agree with you on a lot of things, Davo, but not on this. I myself did not espouse the preterist viewpoint until someone explained it to me and "convinced" me that it was true by showing how it is found in the scriptures. All Bulwark is asking is that we answer some of his many questions (just like we had when we first heard of preterism) so that he can judge it's truthfulness or it's falsehood.

    Bulwark has said that he is willing to submit to "identified truth". All he wants is for us to "identify" where the truth of preterism is found in the scriptures and in history, just like we needed the truth of preterism to be identified to US when we were still futurists.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Bulwark:

    I do hope you'll visit those links and do some reading. While I believe that Nero is the man-Beast of Revelation 13, I think the Messiah-King Menahem and the Zealots fulfilled 2 Thess 2:4 -- it was a literal, precise fulfillment in AD 66 at the very outset of the great tribulation period and at the time the Christians also fled the city of Jerusalem according to Christ's command in Luke 21:20-22 and Matt 24:15-18.

    As for how God's brightness destroys his enemies in 2 Thess 2:8 I would refer you to how the brightness of God's presence always destroyed his enemies: Ps 9:3-5; Ps 44:2-3; Ps 68:2&8; Ps 18:12; Nahum 1:5; Ps 97:5. This is consistent jewish apocalyptic language.

    Hope that helps and I'm glad to see you asking questions. Those links I gave you are all very helpful and I hope you'll at least skim them.

    God bless,
    GW
     
  20. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    thanks for that acts.

    GW , I think you are right. I will read through those links and see were that takes me.

    after that I might have a bit better understanding on things and then I will be able to narrow my questions down.

    thanks

    BULWARK. :)
     
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