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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Well said Ozarkpreterist. :clap: While I do agree with each and every thing you have said here. We must not ever forget another truth that Jesus said. Jesus speaking to the people of his day had this to says: "making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which you have delivered and many such like things do you. (Mark 7:13)

    The traditions of men had the power to make the word of God of none effect in Jesus' day and it still has the power to do that today. Among the many things I am thankful for is the God is opening my poor bling eyes to the ancient truths of Scripture. Our preterist (accomplished salvation) views gains new adherents daily.

    Thank you Lord for your patience and mercy in our behalf.
  2. Here is a deep post from a member in my club over in yahoo

    I have a question for anyone that would desire to answer. When the book of Revelation was written (That is if you accept the pre-AD 70 date.), the church was in the midst of horrendous persecution.

    They had to contend with Jewish zealots, Caesar worship, and paganism. An unbelieving outsider might look at the tiny sect of Christianity and say that it did not have long to last. They were much more the underdog than we are today.

    Yet, you read the new testament and there is surprisingly little complaint about how big the darkness was. Books on how bad things are out there are best sellers today. Sermons about what Satan is supposedly doing and about how terrible our times are abound. Yet, in the day of the early church we hear the bold statement:

    4John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to
    come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.Revelation 1:4 through Revelation 1:6 (NKJV)

    The cry that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth came from their hearts. Moreover, they did not look at themselves as underdogs but as priests and kings. And their boast proved to be true. Rome fell, paganism just ain't what it used to be, and we all know the fate of those Jews that opposed Christ.

    However, this message that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth has become somewhat muted in the modern pulpit. We present Jesus as Savior, and we do it fairly well. We see Him as a loving Savior who accepts us as we are. And this is good. The unconditional love of the cross is greater than we can fathom. However, Jesus is
    also the Lord over all the nations of the earth, and He rules them with a rod of iron. Opposing Him is a fearful thing.

    Moreover, we are very good at presenting ourselves as
    priests—those who commune with God and intercede. We share in the Lord's priestly ministry. However, we are also to be a reflection of the fact that He is King.

    All this to ask a question. Has postponement eschatology stolen the boast that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth from our heart? Has the idea that the kingdom is for a future dispensation stolen the fact that we are kings from us? What damage has the "why polish the brass on a sinking ship" mentality done to the church? Has it replaced the boast that Jesus is Lord with a boast in how big the darkness is and how bad things are getting?

    If it has, I want it back! I realize this is really a bunch of questions, but if anyone would like to comment on any one or all of them, I would like to hear what you have to say. Thanks.
  3. Post (1)

    As I have already stated before there is no mention of "those who lived through a tribulation, during a thousand year reign" who will co-exist with "the raptured" in Isaiah or Daniel. As a mater of fact most dispensationalists believed that there will be a future seven year of tribulation period after the Rapture and before Jesus come to the earth, a concept that was unheard of before the early 1800's.

    In fact, the idea of such a tribulation period consisting of seven years has only one source in the Bible, and that is the prophecy of Daniel's 70 week in Daniel 9:23-24, and that passage says nothing in the world about a Rapture, a future second coming of Christ, or even a tribulation period in our future.

    Everything predicted in Daniel came to completion by the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. as can plainly be seen by anyone reading the passage with an un-prejudiced mind. There is just no way a 100 year tribulation and rapture can be made to apply to Isaiah or Daniel or our, time many hundred of even thousands of years away from that time.

    Since Daniel chapter 7 is about the coming of Israel's Messiah and the given of the dominion and kingdom to the saints of the Most High, lest see why we cannot lift any of these passages out of their intended context, and drop them down in the newspaper headlines of the 21st century, and still have a Biblical interpretation that is not a false witness about endtimes expectations.

    As Daniel continues to watch, someone descends with the clouds of heaven, one like a "Son of Man." He is presented to the Ancient of Days, and to Him is given dominion, glory, and the eternal kingdom. He will rule over all nations forever vs 14.

    The expression, "son of man," is not new to Daniel nor to the Jews of his day. Up to this time, it was simply a synonym for being human, a son of man. In the first use of this expression, being a "son of man" was contrasted with being God: "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)

    Daniel uses the expression "Son of man" twice. The first time in Daniel 7:13, he is referring to Messiah, who will sit on the eternal throne of His father, David. The second time, the expression is used in reference to Daniel himself, as it will be used very frequently in Ezekiel to refer to this great prophet:

    The Old Testament Jews know the reference regarding to the "Son of Man" in Daniel 7 was a reference to the Messiah. When Jesus came, He embraced this expression as a designation for Himself, giving the term meaning vastly beyond that previously held by any Jew. (Matthew 26:56-66)

    The finest commentary on the prophecy of Daniel 7 comes from our Lord Himself. In the Psalms and also in Daniel 7, the expression "Son of Man" begins to take on a more technical meaning, referring to the Messiah, who will sit on the throne of His father, David, to rule over men forever.

    When the Lord Jesus Christ came to earth, having added perfect humanity to His undiminished deity, He spoke of Himself very often as "the Son of Man." In the Gospels, Jesus began not only to identify Himself as the Messiah, the promised "Son of Man," but also to explain all that this involved.

    The Son of Man had the power to forgive sins, as well as to heal a paralytic (Matthew 9:6). The Son of Man was also "Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8). He would rise from the dead (20:19). He will also send forth His angels to gather those who do not belong in His kingdom (12:41). He questioned His disciples so that they could confess that He, the Son of Man, was the Messiah (16:13-16f.).

    He would, after His death, burial, and resurrection come in His glory, rewarding men according to their deeds (16:27). His (disciples were promised that they would share in His reign as King (19:28). The transfiguration of our Lord was but a foretaste of His coming glorious kingdom (16:2). When He came with His kingdom, they would be sure to recognize Him (24:33-34). However, the Son of Man must first suffer at the hands of men (17:22; 20:18).

    Those who rejected the Lord Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of Man, would see Him returning in the clouds (Matthew 26:64). The most dramatic reference of our Lord to His identity as the Son of Man Israel's Messiah comes as the Lord Jesus stands on trial before the Sanhedrin and the high priest:

    Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, in order that they might put Him to death; vs 56 and they did not find it, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, and said, "This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.' And the high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You make no answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?

    But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.? Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you hereafter you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, AND COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Matthew 26:59-64).

    In His response to the demand of the high priest, Jesus directly claimed to be the promised Messiah. That was bad enough, from the religious leaders' perspective, but the way in which He answered them was the last straw. Jesus quoted the words of Daniel 7:13. They surely knew this text to be messianic, and they always applied it to deity.

    The Ancient of Days is a designation for God, not found elsewhere in the Bible. This designation refers to God the Father in a way that stresses His eternality, dignity, and power.

    No wonder Jesus words were called (blasphemy!). They believed that the Messiah would come to establish the kingdom, to bless the Jews and to condemn the Gentiles. Jesus applied this text to them, not as those who would enter into His kingdom, but as those who would be judged and put out of the kingdom at His return (Matthew 8:5-12).

    No wonder His words stung and prompted them to act as they did. These Jewish leaders know that the language that Jesus used meant they, as a rulers of Israel and fleshly seed of Abraham who rejected his Messiah, would SEE His return in divine judgment . A fleshly concept of Jesus coming on the clouds was contrary to the nature of Jews understanding of the OT prophets.

    Post (2) to come.
  4. Post (2)

    First, the prophecies of Daniel are divinely inspired and revealed, and thus they are true and reliable. Second, the prophecies of Daniel are to be understood in the light of the entire Book of Daniel, and the Bible as a whole.

    Thirdly (and most importantly), the prophecies of Daniel mean exactly what God says they mean, nothing more and nothing less. Most prophecy of this chapter are divinely interpreted but the Apostle John in his revelation.

    What is the structure of Daniel 7? The chapter falls into three major parts. The coming of Israel's promises Messiah. The relationship between the saints and Israel's promised Messiah in the coming eternal everlasting kingdom. And that which they must suffer to enter the everlasting kingdom.

    The beast that John saw rising out of the sea had seven heads and ten crowned horns. The number seven and ten are used to represent the complete and entire kingdom of the sea beast, or the Roman Empire. This beast had a combination of (all the qualities) that Daniel ascribed to the four beasts of his prophecy (Dan. 7:1-7), and therefore, answers to the fourth beast that Daniel described as "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly" (Dan. 7:7).

    The four beasts of Daniel 7 answer to the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Macedonian, and Roman kingdoms in that order, with all the traits and qualities of the first three kingdoms being combined in the Roman Empire.

    These were the four world dominions that exercised a rule over God's people, beginning with Nebuchadnezzer of Babylon, and closing with Nero of Rome. The period of these four beast constituted the "time of the Gentiles," which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24), at which time the eternal kingdom of God that was to be set up in the days of the Roman kings (Dan. 2:44) was possessed by the saints. (Dan.7 21-28)

    Some feel that earth and sea do not necessarily symbolize "Jewish and Gentiles" dominion because Daniel made no such distinction.

    The reference is to Dan. 7:3, 17, where the four kingdoms or kings came from the sea in verse three, but are said to arise out of the earth in verse 17. Therefore, they reason that earth and sea have no contrasting significance.

    But the trouble lies in faulty translation. The Septuagint version gives this reading of verse 17; "these great beast are four kingdoms which shall be destroyed from the earth," rather than "which shall arise out of the earth" (KJV).

    This reading is more suitable to the meaning of the context. The four kings of Daniel's vision that came out of the sea, or Gentile world entered upon the earth (Palestine) for the purpose of exercising a political rule over God's people.

    But in each case they were destroyed out of the earth, with Rome's being the last of the fore kingdoms to ever invade the earth.

    Emperor worship was common in that day, and Nero in particular was known for his endeavors to be received and worshiped as God. The names of blasphemy written upon the beast's heads denoted his opposition to the true God as described by Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3, 4. Daniel refers to him as "speaking great words against the most High" (Dan. 7:25).

    When the iniquity of his blasphemous reaches full bloom and his appointed time to rule was fulfilled, God destroy him. :clap:

    Last post coming right up.
  5. The everlasting kingdom of God would not be established in Daniel's lifetime. However it was to be established in the life times of the first century church (Mat. 12:28; Mar. 1:14-5; 9:1; Acts 19:8; 2 Thess. 1:5)

    Suffering was to be expected by the saints, before they enter into the glorious kingdom of God. (2 Thessalonians 1:5) Daniel's testimony was a reality to this fact.

    Prophecy greatly benefits these saints because it enables them to see things from the bigger and broader perspective—from God's perspective—so that when they suffers, they knows it is but a part of the process of getting to glory. Daniel 7 indicates in the clearest way that prior to the coming of the kingdom of God the saints will suffer.

    Wherever I see the Scriptures speak of the coming kingdom of God, I find suffering closely associated with it. (see Mat. 24:8; Luke 21:12-19; 1 Cor. 4:11-14; 1Thess. 1:12) Those who will reign with Christ are those who have suffered (see Romans 8:17; Philippians 3:10-11; 2 Timothy 2:12). Suffering is an inseparable part of the process which leads to glory. So it was for our Lord (1 Peter 1:10-12)

    Daniel's prophecy does not only speak of the joys and glories of God's kingdom to come but of the suffering and tribulation preceded by the saints to enter the eternal blessings of the kingdom of God. According to the Apostle Paul it was being fulfilled in them. (Acts 14:22; 2 Thessalonians 1:5)

    I have heard a number of un-biblical attempts to explain the "gaps" in Old Testament prophecy. One of those gaps is found in Daniel 7. Many try to place a gap between the suffering of the saints, and the consummation of the eternal kingdom. However God does not see such a gap. And Daniel and the Apostle's did not see or mention any gap between the suffering and entering the kingdom of God.

    Daniel's prophecy was not written as a 21th century hype but to revealed to produce the hope of glory and endurance in present tribulation. And this was Paul very thought. (1 Thessalonians 1:1-10) Daniels prophecy was written to sober the saints and inspire faith and endurance in the midst of suffering....In the context of the coming of the eternal kingdom and the suffering and trials which precede it, soberness is a vitally important quality which prophecy promotes:

    Prophecy is necessary because God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. We could never predict the goals God has determined, nor the means He has ordained for history to reach them. Prophecy revealed to the early church that which they would not and could not expect apart from divine revelation.

    Consider the birth of a child, remembering that God's deliverance and salvation is likened to birth. The process of having a baby involves the pains of childbirth. They are far from pleasant but an unavoidable part of the process. The woman endures in the view of the final outcome of the process. When the child is born, the pains of suffering are quickly lost in the joys of seeing a new life. Child-bearing is a process which involves suffering and glory. Salvation is likewise a process involving suffering—and then glory. (Luke 21:12-19; 2 Corinthians 1:6-7)

    Prophecy is revealed to men to change their perspective, to urge them to see things as God sees them rather than as they appear to the human eye. The first century saints not only base their thinking and actions on circumstances, but upon the Scriptures. What God says, He will do. The saints believe and behave according to what God has promised about possess the kingdom of God. All one has to do is look into the history of the first century church to see how they suffered in order to enter the kingdom.
  6. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

    Bump. :)
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