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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    I find that these conversations are incredibly constructive, Unworthyone, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure the rest of the Preterists on this thread feel the same. I am learning a great deal about what we all believe, and enjoying the fellowship of Christians that hold similiar beliefs to mine (and even those who don't).

    If you feel that this thread is not constructive then you have the freedom not to read it. The choice is yours.

    In Christ,

  2. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    Listen mani, I responded with the Bible time and again. I admire your Christian way of taking a shot at me. That's the image we need to portray to the lost, buddy. I just don't have time to fool with this post any more. If you do, that's fine. But I have a life, and a job, and just had a close friend die, so all I'm asking for is a little respect, please!
  3. I agree Acts there conversations are incresibly constructive, However I am not a futurist who believes the traditions of men which see ever newspapper head lines as the fulfillment of prophecy. Then on the other hand when you believe what man say and not the Bible, and cannot answer a question with the Bible these conversations would not be constuctive to you. :mad:
  4. No body here is taking a shot at you Psalm6 sorry you feel that way. We are also sorry to hear about you friend.
  5. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    Welcome Ozark! =)

  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    Psalm 6,

    Sad to hear about your friend. We will be strengthening you in prayer.

    God bless.
  7. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    Thanks guys, I appreciate it, keep the family in mind too if you don't care. And another thing, I don't care who's right or wrong in this, Jesus is Lord of All. He strengthens us all, and blesses us with every breath we take. Why waste that breath on arguing? Maybe the futurists are right, maybe the preterists are right. We're all going home to glory. Take this advice, tell everyone you love, that you love them and appreciate them, guys, girls, friends, relatives, whatever. His death was a freak accident, and it shocked us all. We're never guranteed another second. Don't fight with each other, which I'm guilty of, let the people you care about know that you love them. God bless each and everyone of us.
  8. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    I will get around to answering your questions but I have been very busy. By the way I am not a typical futurists as you have labled me. Go to my temp site and read my Is there a rapture paper at http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/
    You guys would even probably lable me as a partial preterist. However I dont think this is a fair lable either. Just because you agree with some of the same verses as another group doesnt make you partial apart of their group. I am merily a studier of Gods word and disciple of Christ. Perhaps we should all spend more time thinking of ways to save the lost then obsesing over a subject that doesnt effect your salvation. You guys never answered all of my questions either because you cant. You atempted to answer part of them and thats great. How about you take another stab at some of the unanswered questions.

    Here are few more questions for you.

    How do you pray? I mean do you say in the name of Jesus.
    When did Jesus empty out hades?

    If you dont fell like looking back at my post let me recap this one section and let you guys go to work on it.

    We know that the resurrection will be a bodily one. Lazarus story is one example where Christ shows us that he had the power to resurrect someone. This was a bodily resurrection. Even better than that is Christ himself. He was raised from dead in his body. He was the firstfruits raised from the dead. This means that when the last day comes there will be a bodily resurrection just like Christ resurrection. To deny this is to Deny Christ bodily resurrection.(1Cort 15) There will be a resurrection of both the just and unjust (Acts 24:15) This resurrection will be the appointed DAY when the whole WORLD, not just the Jews, will be judged. We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and EVER knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess to God. (Rom 14:9-11) Did this happen at 70AD? I think not. When Jesus comes the righteous will be caught up in the air with him and be with Jesus forever (1Thess 4:17; See Also John 14:2-3 and Philp 3:20-21). Did this happen at 70AD? When Jesus APPEARS then we also will APPEAR with him in glory. This means an actual appearance.( Col 3:4; Acts 1:11; Rev 1:7) When he comes it will be like a thief in the night and their will be NO ESCAPE. (1Thess 5:1-3) In the destruction of Jerusalem it started around 67AD and went on for several years. Some Jews escaped and this destruction was by no means as a thief in the night. I could list more verses but this should be plenty to show that there is going to be a DAY when Jesus comes back literally and that the righteous will be resurrected and caught up in the air with him. All will stand before Christ and be judged. I think that its very clear that these verses has nothing to do with 70AD, but have everything to do with the final 2nd coming of Christ.
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    We will, Psalm 6.

    And thanks for the important encouragement about the brevity and sanctity of life and how we ought to live each day towards those all around us.

    Our stay on earth is short. Eternity is long.

  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    Hi Cougan, and God bless. Hope you're off to a good day.

    What parts of the Olivet do you believe are fulfilled?

    I typically pray to the Father citing the name of Jesus. It's not a formula, just a rememberance of why we have bold access to our Heavenly Father and the promise of Christ that we may be granted anything in His name if we ask according to God's will.

    Jesus emptied Hades at AD 70, at the very last day of the Old Testamental Law period:

    1 Corinthians 15:54-56
    and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

    Lazarus was a resuscitation so that he died physically two times. The Resurrection unto eternal life is different and is called the "better resurrection" in Heb 11:35 because those who are partakers in that resurrection can never die again (Rom 6:9; Luke 20:35-36;Luke 12:4).

    The resurrection of the rest of the dead saints out of Hades (like Christ's) will not be like Christ's in every manner. Christ's flesh was raised because he was the Messiah (Acts 2:27-31). His was sinless flesh and was not left to undergo corruption (Acts 2:27-31). Jesus' flesh, of course, was glorified into his heavenly spiritual body and we no him after the flesh no more (2 Cor 5:16). Jesus was glorified back to the glory he had with the Father before the world was created (John 17:5).

    The saints' resurrection is described in detail in 1 Cor 15:35-50 and 2 Cor 5:1-2. Paul says the saints' resurreciton into a spiritual body is like a seed. The seed must be sown via death so it gets raised (1 Cor 15:35), and it gets raised a spiritual body. The body that is sown is not the body that shall be -- there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44). Our earthly sin bodies cannot partake in immortality (1 Cor 15:50). Corruption CANNOT inherit incorruption.

    You cited Acts 24:15 which states: "there is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." Paul was expecting it to occur in his own lifetime (1 Thess 4:15,17), saying "we who are alive and remain..."

    The whole world was judged at AD70. Jesus Christ said in John 12:31 -- "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out." Matthew 23:33-36 shows us that it was a universal judgment. Just like the Cross was the blood shed for a universal salvation to all the Chosen past present and future, so also was the judgment of AD 70 a universal judgment to every soul past present and future. Christ is NOW the judge of the living and the dead . He died and rose to become that judge (Rom 14:8-9). As it is written: every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to God. All souls bow before Jesus, some now, and some at death (Heb 9:27). There is only one God who is the God over all earth and heaven -- Jesus Christ (Matt 28:18). He rules over all people and dominions and all flesh (1 Peter 3:22; John 17:2; Eph 1:20-21; Heb 9:27).

    Christ's coming was to be a Day of the Lord event. Of all the Day of the Lord events that took place in the bible, AD 70 was the greatest. It was the day of Christ.

    Christ's coming as a thief shows us that the thief was not seen but his plunder was accomplished. So it was in the great tribulation of AD 67-70, Israel's greatest Day of the Lord. Jesus promised that his coming as a thief was promised to overtake the Sardis Church in the mid 60s AD (Rev 3:1-3). That places Christ's coming in the long distant past. In contrast, since the Thessalonians were not living in darkness the Day of Christ was NOT to overtake them as a Thief and sudden destruction did not happen to them (1 Thess 5:2-5). Again, this places Christ's parousia in the long distant past. Christ's coming was appointed to occur in their generation (Matt 24:34), and Christ's own apostles were promised that they would experience the events (Matt 24:33).

    We are living BEYOND the endtimes, which was the generation of Christ and the apostles (Heb 1:1-2; 1 Cor 10:11; James 5:3; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:15-17).
  11. IB

    IB Idaho Bassman

    Wow, I finally caught up. This has been some good reading. I have been taking my time and looking up ever scripture quoted. This has been a great study of the bible. Keep it up I am enjoying myself, and the knowledge I am receiving.

    see ya,
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    Heya IB. Great to have you on board.

    I think this is a great discussion and it challenges us all to dig deep into scripture as we desire to be noble Bereans together (Acts 17:11).
  13. Hi cougan when you have some time read my acticle on the rapture which shows the view we hold to.

  14. When we place the resurrection of the dead in the far future it removes us from the Jewish root and understanding of the resurrection which is clearly seen in the Bible. Christians miss the blessing of "seeing" God's completed work in Christ.

    The resurrection was (only promised to Israel). (Acts 26:6-Paul preached totally from the Old Testament. Acts 26:21-22. Christians today who have eternal life have no need of resurrection. (John 11:26)

    The future resurrection that was addressed in the gospel's eschatological massage was not a different future resurrection from the one foreseen by the prophesy of Israel. Daniel 12:1-3; Acts 26:6-8

    In order to understand the first century Jewish concept of the resurrection you must first understand the concept of the "first fruits" and "the harvest." Where did this idea of "firstfruits" originate? "On the same general principle that the firstborn of man and beast belonged to the God of Israel and were to be devoted to Him, Nehemiah 10:35-39.

    The firstfruits, including the first grain to ripen each season, were to be brought as an offering to God. Every Israelite who possessed the means of agricultural productivity was under this obligation. (Exodus 23:19; 34:26; Numbers 15:17-21; 18:12-13) Speak the to children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. ‘He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. Leviticus 23:10-11

    "The firstfruits were brought in a basket to the sanctuary and presented to the priest, who was to set the basked down before the altar. Then, the offerer recited the story of Jacob's going to Egypt and the deliverance of his posterity from there. He then acknowledged the blessings with which God had visited him. Deuteronomy 26:2-11

    It would be natural for Paul to have thought of Christ as the "firstfruits" because the day of Christ's resurrection was the second day of Passover week on which the first ripe sheaf of the harvest was offered to the Lord. Lev 23:10-11,15.

    Paul was also establishing another basic point. While Christ was the firstfruits his people were also significance of the "first ripe sheaf" (Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:15; James 1:18). Because they were buried with Christ in baptism into death: and raised in His, resurrection by the glory of the Father they walked in the newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

    These "New Covenant saints" were the ones who Jesus addressed in verse. 25 of John 5 These saints who followed their Lord would never die. John 11:26 Death, to God, means to be separated from Him. If we are going to ever understand the Bible we must see things from God's viewpoint, not man's

    Eternal Life was the gift to those (New Covenant saints) who would finish their days on earth under the New Covenant. John 10:28 Believers who live until that day in 70 A.D. when everything under the Old Covenant was fulfilled by the inauguration of the kingdom and the New Covenant would never die. (John 5:25, 11:26)

    They would never experience waiting in the place of the dead the Hadean realm but would be "absent from the body, present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8) That is resurrection.

    The resurrection began with the resurrection of Jesus. He opened the way. The saints who died after they followed the Lord were the collective believers were of the first resurrection-firstfruits to God (which is seen in the last part of Revelation 20:5. These firstfruits were representative of the whole harvest before God (Revelation 14:4).

    This select group of Christians was purchased from the earth as a FIRST FRUITS offering. The Greek for purchased means: to go to the market. It is a picture of God coming to the earth to select His FIRST FRUITS from the entire harvest. The term "firstfruits" itself implies the remainder of the harvest was ripe.

    The firstfruits are related to the harvest as the part is to the whole. Every Jewish Christian understood this Old Testament concept. The second important truth inherent in the firstfruits figure is the readiness of the harvest to be gathered as signified in the offering of the firstfruits. The act of reaping had already begun; and the harvest was ready to be cut." (Revelation 14:15)

    The harvest were the dead in Christ from past ages like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Job, etc. These (saints are see in the first part of Revelation 20:5 not of a time still to come, for in Christ the time for death to be abolished had arrived (2 Timothy 1:10).

    These are the ones who Jesus addressed in John 5:28. These "Old Covenant saints" were the rest of the harvest- the general resurrection. These were the ones "though he may die, he shall live (John 11:23). Knowing this, we can appreciate why God said: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matthew 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38)

    The harvest follows the ripening (perfecting) and offering of the firstfruits. With the return of Christ and the destruction of temple, the way into God presence was now opened (Hebrew 9:8). The Hadean realm was emptied and the harvest of Old Covenant saints was gathered in the general resurrection in A.D.70 Its clear. Its biblical. Its easily understood only if we interpret the Bible through a Jewish understanding.

    One way to better understand the teaching of John's resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is to get a better grasp of the literary devices that are used by the writer to produce the desired results of the revelation he is seeking to unveil. One such device is chiasmas, which is a term that designates a literary figure or principle, which consist of "a placing crosswise" of words in a sentence or writing.

    The term is used in rhetoric to designate an inversion of the order of words or phrases which are repeated or subsequently referred to in the sentence or writing.

    I will show how chiasmas is used by John and his desied results of the revelation he is seeking to unveil in Revelation 20 this weekend on my web site.
  15. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    Just a quick question and a comment. Manifestation are you saying that the first generation believers who died before the Parousia did not go to the Hadean realm but instead went to heaven and presence of God? This is something I have never been quite clear on.

    It is amazing how freeing fulfilled eschatology is. For the past two centuries (I think perhaps because of the rise of dispensationalist thought) the church has had a "revival mentality." We have believed that somehow we need to get God to come and visit us. If we prayed enough or got really right with God, Heaven would come down. In fact, that is how many revivals are described, "Heaven came down."

    This thought is not scriptural. Although God has seemed to bless it for brief periods of time. Yet, those times faded quickly kind of like the glory that is according to the Law.

    Preterism can and will change the entire mind set of the church from a God who visits to a God who abides. Is this not what Jesus meant when He said, "He who believes on Me will never die." This means we never leave His presence. We don't have to pray heaven down. Heaven has already touched earth through Jesus Christ, and it never left.

    This is perhaps why Paul says our citizenship is in heaven, and we are seated with Him in the heavenly places. The veil has been torn, and nothing can put it back again.
  16. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    Not to mention the present reality of the kingdom of God!! (Heb 12:22, Gal 4:26, Rev 21:2) =)

    I particularly like how Rev 22:2 speaks of the healing of nations =)

    God bless!

  17. Hi Ozarkpreterist. These first firstfruits believers who died before the Parousia (the finsh work of Christ)did not go to the Hadean realm but instead were under the altar (Revelation 6:9) At this time in space they were not in God's presence because Christ's work of salvation was not finshed Heb. 9:24-28 but they were not in the Hadean realm either. :clap:
  18. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    How do we know the the souls under the altar are the first fruits?

    God bless! =)

  19. Hi Hoonbaba. particularly like how Rev 22:15 speaks of outside the city are all kinds of sin after the judgment in Rev.20. Notice how there is still sin after the judgment. Therefore there will always be a need for the tree for the healing of the nations. Christians believe we are wrong because they believe there will be no more sin after the kingdom. However the Bible says no such thing.
  20. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    That is the glory of redemption. Christ is in us. This means He is where we are. We are in Christ. That means we are where He is. And we sometimes have the audacity to ask "Where is God?" :scratch:
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