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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Out of curiousity, how does preterism jive with the Nicene Creed. "He [Jesus] will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead?" I know next to nothing about it and am curious.

    Neal
     
  2. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    No worries mate :) I was just wandering with all the questions you've already asked -and the very good answers [IMO] that you've been getting, where you're struggling with [as you say] "submitting to identified truth." And I'm not wanting to be one of your "cultic responders" thus adding to your doubts over the whole issue. Believe me, most preterists were former futurists, and when being challenged to explore another perspective on the Word it is naturally difficult to "see" what's being said -however if you are fair-dinkum in your search for identified truth I believe [as Rachel Hunter says] "it will happen." :idea:

    I have no idea about Clement, but it is an assumption that Timothy or any other disciples who may have lived through the tribulation "didn't" bring this fulfiled message -JUST because we today don't have any manuscripts or the like to refer back to. Books or scrolls etc were not the common every day thing for the masses as we have it today.

    One thing we DO have in scripture is abundant evidence that they then were expecting Christs SOON return -and I wander how it might be that you maybe can't [or can you?] see this clearly revealed truth, as this I know has been addressed a number of times. :scratch:

    davo
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Bulwark:

    I have my email listed and would be willing to discuss that way. Right now I'm very busy with work and may not have much time here to do the boards. Sorry, but feel free to email me if you'd like. The others here are can answer your questions -- we all get busy sometimes and can't carry on unbroken discussion.

    I want to leave you with two MAJOR clues that will help you understand full preterism.

    (1) When reading the N.T. always remember who is speaking and who is the audience of the letter. It is a fact that when we read the N.T. we are eavesdropping. Not a single line of the N.T. was written to you or me -- the N.T. letters are the correspondencies between 1st century New Covenant citizens. For example, the "YOU" Jesus addresses all through Matthew 24 is not you and me. It is his living breathing apostles sitting right there with him. With that in mind, take a minute and read all that Jesus promises THEM that they would experience in Matthew 24.

    (2) When you wonder how Preterists conceive of the return of Christ, remember that the PRIMARY concept is that of "The Day of the Lord." If you grasp what "The Day of the Lord" was in O.T. times (and the many instances it occurred against various nations and Israel) then you will easily grasp how preterists say it happened in 66-70AD. The Roman-Jewish conquest was the Day of the Lord, and without question the greatest Day of the Lord in history.

    God bless,
    GW
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,785
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi Neal, Preterists do not believe the creeds are infallible, we do believe scripture is however.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  5. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    If both the Nicene Creed and the Canon of Scripture were decided by a Church Council or Synod, how do you know which one to believe. Why believe the Synod of Carthage that decided the Canon of Scripture and not the Council of Nicea that formed the Nicene Creed?

    Neal
     
  6. Hi Bulwark. Let me ask you a question then? Who do you believe was the man of sin who was to sit in the temple of God. Remember the temple was destroyed in AD 70 so the man of sin had to have been revealed before then.
     
  7. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Please, e-mail me or PM me an answer so I don't break the thread. Sorry for the interruption.

    Neal
     
  8. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hey GW,
    Thanks mate. I may take you up on that soon, at the moment I am reading those links still (a slow reader, :() I’m trying to get a bit of an idea so when I do ask questions, they will be easier for you to answer me and for me to understand the answers.


    One thing though mates.

    Although I do agree hear to a large degree and I actually do try to do this;



    It is important to put their conversations into the right context of the time, I agree but there are scriptures that make me think that allot of these promises were for us as well.

    This isn’t about matt 24 but just to show how I see that it does refer to us as well as the disciples and apostles. Not everything Jesus says is for us, as you said but there are defiantly promises that are for us today as well as them.

    A couple of examples would be;


    acts 2
    37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.



    I want to extend this scripture because it says "you" allot and it appears to just be for the disciples but look at what Jesus says before he tells them this promise, (“he that believes on me")

    John 14
    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


    so. I think that it is very important to put the n/t in it’s time context but it is also important to notice the little words that change the whole context.
    Ie. “to as many that are afar off” and “ He that believes on me”.

    This is interesting GW. Let me think about “the lords day” and finish reading those links first and then I may be able to see this better. I thought the Lord’s Day was a day that was worse than any day up till that time and there will never be a day like it again ever.

    I did think of Jerusalem in 70AD concerning this a long time a go but it was that scripture that made me think that it couldn’t be sinse Jerusalem had risen and fallen a dozen times since 70 ad, maybe with not as much damage or it not being the jewish state but if you compare what Rome could do then and what we could do now with the weaponry we have, it is hard to believe that Israel wont see a far worse war than 70 ad and if we were to compare that scripture to say, what happened in Japan in the 2nd world war, Jerusalem in 70 ad is simple Childs play in comparison.

    There was one thing that I did notice once.
    When Jesus stood up on the Sabbath and preached from Isaiah ch 61 he quoted from Isaiah but left out the last verse which was to say,” and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;”

    Have you ever notice that Jesus closed the book half way through saying ,
    “To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,” then he closes the book instead of saying the rest of the verse, which was, “and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;”

    It isn’t much to go on but I did wonder why he did that. I figured because he had come to save the world, not judge it. (Although we are judged by his righteousness)

    I think I need to do a lot of thinking and reading about these things because I am well awear of what happened in 70 ad but maybe I am not as good as I thought with my bible symbolism. You guys seem to have a good understanding of those things and you have my attention.

    One simple question though;

    GW, do you believe that all bible prophesy is fulfilled and there is nothing to come???

    I did wonder why jesus said that not one jot of the law will pass till all is fulfilled.

    considering the whole Levitical law is dead and gone , this is a little confusing to understand along with other things that appeared as though he was returning in there life time.

    Thanks for your reply and your help.

    BULWARK
     
  9. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Heya davo,
    Ya make it sound like we have discussed this subject at length mate. :scratch:

    I haven’t really had one question answered in a way that I could understand it. GW has given me some links that I got to get on to but other than that, I haven’t had any thing answered at all mate??

    Davo, this hasn’t been addressed with me in any detail at all mate???

    Although I can see were there is a couple of places that can be taken that way and there is even a couple of those scriptures that I would like to talk about, i.e., the one I put to GW.

    I can’t see abundant evidence on that at all. I do see questionable scriptures concerning it though. These are the sought of things that I have come hear to discuss but one question at a time.

    If I can’t get past the initial few questions then I am waisting my time. :)

    We need to be hard on you cobbers to keep you in line :p ;)

    So I’m going to be hard on you hear cobber

    Are you fairdinkum mate, what sought of answer is this davo??? How is this supposed to convince me of anything


    That is so far from an educated answer mate. Ya got me wondering if you could answer my questions anyway.

    Hey davo, why don’t you go through all my (2 posts) and number my questions and then paste were I have received the answer because I haven’t asked many questions and I haven’t had anything addressed yet in detail.

    Even though I already have "submitted to identified truth"
    Within my first post.

    Look at how easy it is to convince me with truth.


    Hear is my reply;


    See davo, it isn’t hard to change my mind; GW did it in his first brief post. I originally stated that this could have been the falling away from Rome but I identified with the truth GW spoke and now I think differently.


    Although that did produce the next bunch of questions.



    Anyway davo, I recon I am easily teachable, if you can cope with my kinds of questions.

    For example;

    Why don’t you get that timothy and clement question and check it out and see if you can give me an accurate explanation instead of a rough guess :D.

    Peace to you cobber, I don’t mean it, near as harsh as it sounds J

    BULWARK
     
  10. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0


    Hey manifestation, I just loved your reply :D:D LMAO

    What is this thread called??? “BULWARKS doctrines”:D:D

    Answer at least one of my questions to my satisfaction manifestation and I will be more than happy to answer your questions but I did actually come hear to see what you believe not tell you what I believe???

    Peace

    BULWARK

    Ps LMAO :D.
     
  11. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Bulwark,

    It's been a pleasure seeing you search for truth. Keep plugging away, my friend! :) I've got a little time so I wanted to look at one thing you said.

    Let me bounce this off you and see what you think; the reason why preterists believe that 66-70AD was the greatest "Day of the Lord" and cannot be surpassed is because of the purposeand significance of that judgment. It was THE Judgment because it ushered in the end of the Jewish Age and the removal of one Covenant (the Old) with fulfillment of another (the New). No war, no conflict in history can claim such a significance. What war, orchestrated by God throughout history, has led to the changing of a covenant and the culmination of the Deuteronical curses (Deut. 28,32)? None. There has been no tribulation as significant as what took place in 66j-70AD, not by the world's standard but by God's standard.

    That is why I believe comparing body counts between 70AD and WWII is like comparing apples and oranges. I don't think casualties is the main criteria for judging the "greatness" of the Day of the Lord, rather it should be the purpose of the Judgment. In the same way, I believe that the most terrible death ever suffered was experienced by Jesus Christ - not because crucifixion is the most painful way to die (men have suffered more physically excruciating deaths over the past several thousand years), but because of the purpose and significance of Christ's death. In terms of physical pain, other men have died more agonizing deaths, but His death has been the worst in human history because of who He was and why He died.

    There are also several passages in the Old Testament that use the "nothing will be greater then" language and yet, from a natural perspective, there have been greater things then those since then. So Matt. 24:21 may be a literary device. I wish I had the references on hand but I couldn't find them, so I don't want to make a claim until I remember where those passages are (if another preterist knows what I'm talking about I could use the help).

    Anyway, I hope you can at least understand our perspective. By the way, if the severity of God's judgment during the Tribulation is supposed to be measured by body counts and the amount of people surviving death, then I guess it's going to have to beat the judgment in Noah's day; when God judged the world then only "8 souls"
    survived. If the Tribulation is supposed to be greater then anything that has ever been then I guess only 7 people or less will be left on the planet by the time it's through. Something to think about. :)

    P.S. - I also agree with what GW has said in his next post about the "Day of the Lord", and the reason why it is the greatest and the last.


    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    BULWARK:
    I agree but there are scriptures that make me think that allot of these promises were for us as well.

    GW:
    Only by application. They are New Covenant citizens, and since the New Covenant is eternal its Law and realities are for all generations of the Church world without end (Eph 3:21). HOWEVER, there is only ONE single endtimes generation. That endtimes generation cannot apply to any but ONE single generation in human history. Do we know who was the last days generation? Yes. The apostles testified that THEY were (Heb 1:1-2; 1 Cor 10:11; Acts 2:15-17; 1 Peter 1:20; Heb 9:26; James 5:3)


    BULWARK:
    Not everything Jesus says is for us, as you said but there are defiantly promises that are for us today as well as them. A couple of examples would be; Acts 2:37-39; John 14:12-19.

    GW:
    Peter is proclaiming New Covenant realities and the New Covenant is eternal. This is how come we apply this to us today. Peter's mention of those "afar off" and "all whom our Lord will call" opens the promise up specifically to all. No such language is ever used in Matthew 24. Again there is only ONE generation to whom Matthew 24 pertains. Jesus says it is the apostles' generation.




    BULWARK:
    Let me think about ?the lords day? and finish reading those links first and then I may be able to see this better. I thought the Lord?s Day was a day that was worse than any day up till that time and there will never be a day like it again ever.

    GW:
    AD 66-70 was the worst "Day of the Lord" Israel had ever known. Not only in magnitude but in a covenantal reality. Sure as many as 2 million enemies of Christ and the Church kept the Mosaic Law in Jerusalem at passover time and were trapped in and perished there, but they lost their nation entirely (Matt 21:40-43). There is no more "Israel" since the New Nation is Christ's eternal people. And, the early jewish followers claimed THEY were Israel and not their unbelieving kin anyway. No Day of the Lord can ever again happen to some contemporary political Israel since they have no covenant with God. The Day of the Lord is executed according to the Mosaic Law curses of Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26. The Mosaic Law is no longer an active covenant made with any people on this planet and has not existed since AD 70. Therefore the Day of the Lord cannot happen to today's political Israel for they are not a people of any covenant with God nor are they the people of bible times anyway. Today's Israel is fully a gentile people according to the standards of the scriptures.



    BULWARK:
    There was one thing that I did notice once. When Jesus stood up on the Sabbath and preached from Isaiah ch 61 he quoted from Isaiah but left out the last verse which was to say,? and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;?

    Have you ever notice that Jesus closed the book half way through saying ,
    ?To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,? then he closes the book instead of saying the rest of the verse, which was, ?and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;?

    It isn?t much to go on but I did wonder why he did that. I figured because he had come to save the world, not judge it.


    GW:
    You have rightly noticed that Isaiah 61:2 was left out and you have rightly noticed that Isaiah 61:2 speaks of the final judgment. Now, did you ever notice what Jesus says in Luke 21:20-22 about AD 66-70 when the Romans came to sack Jerusalem? Did you compare it to Isa 61:2?

    So Jesus did indeed declare when both Isaiah 61:1 and 61:2 were to be fulfilled. Isa 61:1 was fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry and Isa 61:2 was fulfilled when God's armies came and surrounded the city of Jerusalem and not one stone was left upon another for the Temple was dismantled piece by piece and the city razed to the ground.


    BULWARK
    GW, do you believe that all bible prophesy is fulfilled and there is nothing to come???

    I did wonder why jesus said that not one jot of the law will pass till all is fulfilled.


    GW:
    All last days prophecy is fulfilled. But the Last Days of the Old Testament age ushered in an ETERNAL New Covenant Age and established God's people in Christ's righteousness and dominion and rule for all eternity. We are a Holy Nation and Royal Priesthood and we reign upon the earth since it was given by God to Christ's Nation. God's nation is the eternal Church which is an eternal nation here to live in faith and subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness and take dominion over all the earth. Such is the rightful dominion of Christ and the Church (Romans 4:13-18; Gal 3:7-9; Matt 28:18; Rev 1:5). And Heaven awaits all those who live in Covenant with God with eternal rewards.

    Hope you'll email me. I won't be able to check back here for about a week. I'll check my email. I pray the blessing of Eph 3:14-21 for you as you seek God's truth.

    GW
     
  13. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Sorry about that -I made the mistake of assuming your interest meant you had checked out the earlier posts and therefore had been tracking along, I'm sure you'll find some answers there -though possibly not to your satisfaction.

    -----------
    Well possibly so, however I have no personal need to convince you, or answer to you to "your satisfaction" -that may well be beyond my capabilities.

    This is your question:
    Now I know you didn't like how I answered you the first time :scratch: , but what sought of uncle Tom question is it -like what connection are you making between Timothy and Clement?? What have they to do with each other? Do you have others in mind who fit this catagory? Paul wrote to Timothy but I don't recall Timothy saying anything [at least that's recorded] -so what exactly are you asking, or what point are you driving at. Fill in the gaps for me :)

    davo
     
  14. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Wow :idea: :idea: :idea:

    I got that little revelation light flashing at a million miles an hour :clap:

    I see, I see.
    Thanks so much acts and GW, I understood every single thing you both said. Thank you.

    I can’t quote what spoke to me the most because it all spoke to me together as one.

    I am not saying that I fully believe it but at least now I can see allot better and I need to study the things you two are saying because I can totally relate to what your saying.

    Give me some time hear on these things because I will be back once I have re-read with a better understanding.

    I have considered these things but you now how it is, you just can’t talk about it because others think it to be heresies so I just put it aside.

    The thing that makes this easy to understand is that I believe that it is most likely that all these judgments placed in prophesy were for Israel and the great and terrible day of the lord was for them.

    I have often wondered "did peter misquote Joel to say that was the end time, obviously not. He was talking about there time wasn’t he?


    Wow.

    Let me meditate on these things and read a bit more and I will come back with a better understanding of things

    Thanks guys

    BULWARK :clap:

    wow you guys hit those bible symbols so obviously.
     
  15. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hey davo,
    I recon that the answer on Weather Christ returned in 70 ad or not will be answered from these statements if taken seariously.

    Why??

    Because clement was the leader of the church from 88 ad to 97ad and new Paul and peter.

    He also has epistles that were classed as canon until the 4th century.

    Timothy was the bishop of Ephesus until after 100 ad.

    I could name others but is it necessary??

    My point is that both these men new the apostles personally, they were alive in 70 ad and they were both leaders of the church in the first century after 70 ad.

    So you would think that they would have taught that Jesus had returned, not that he was still to return.

    Clement has writings and timothy was a huge influence on some of the Greek churches.

    So how come they didn`t teach that Jesus had returned, they would have had a lot better idea on this than us and there is huge amounts of apocryphal new testament writings , written in the first 4 centuries but I haven’t read anything that would suggest that Jesus came back. On the contrary, it tells me over and over that he was still to return.

    Do you see my point hear Dave??

    I might go read those epistles of clement because the answer is in there , I`m shore.

    BULWARK
     
  16. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Hi Bulwark, I'm not so much up on who really knew back then suffice to say that apparent silence [to us] on given issues isn't saying they hadn't occurred. Communications then wasn't as it is today. Persecution of christians continued on way past AD70 and it would not be hard to imagine those reading the various gospels and letters to the Churchs etc, as they eventually circulated, interpreting them as applying specifically to there immediate situation -much like happens today with the various forms of "futurism" eg; looking for and "seeing" 'America' in bible prophecy etc etc.

    There are other references through some of the "church fathers" that are preteristic in there flavour.

    PS: stick with GW and Acts6:5 -they seem to be hitting the mark for you :clap:

    davo
     
  17. IB

    IB Idaho Bassman

    22
    +0
    Christian
    Yo Bulwark,

    you said:
    "I have considered these things but you now how it is, you just can’t talk about it because others think it to be heresies so I just put it aside."

    I know how it is. I am also trying to make a final decision on these "end times" scriptures. I have been following these posts from the first, and have been looking up all the references. I have also been sending e-mails to GW on the side with some of my questions. He has been a great resource in my search for the truth. Take him up on his offer to discuss through personal e-mails, he is good about getting back to you. (thanks GW). Anyway I just wanted to encourage you to keep seeking.

    See Ya, Idaho Bassman
     
  18. Hi Bulwark. I tryed to answer your question but you said it was not to your satiataction. So there is no way I can get you to understand my answer without you doing some home work on that subject to see who I believe Nero was the man of sin and the beast of Revelation. So with that in mind. I ask you who do you believe the man of sin was?

    With your answer to my question maybe I can understand why you do not see Nero as the man of sin.
     
  19. Bulwark take your good old time brother. I have been a preterist for well over 20 years now and no one here become a preterist over night.
     
  20. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hey man 70AD,
    I see what you mean!!

    Hear is a link to a thread I started about 6 mths ago under the name "Celtic crusader".

    This explains in length (sorry about the length) what I believe about the man of sin and the ten kings.

    http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1220


    I probably wont be around for a day or so until I have thought about allot of things.

    Although, isn’t it possible that bible prophesy stretched from physical Israel into spiritual Israel (the church).

    Man 70ad, if you have been a preterist that long, and you have the time, go have a good look at this thread and let me know what you think from a preterist point of view.

    BULWARK :)
     
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