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Featured Israel Can't Make a New Ark for a New Temple

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Dale, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    ***

    The REAL temple is in heaven and always has been, it is where God lives

    The earthly ones were a copy of the real one in heaven.

    Acts 17:24

    "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

    Hebrews 9:24

    For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

    Hebrews 9:11

    But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

    An earthly temple will not be rebuilt. Jesus is our high priest and is in the temple in heaven (the REAL one)

    When Jesus left the last earthly temple, He never returned to it ... left it desolate.

    Matthew 23

    37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’

    Matthew 24

    1As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.

    2“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    The temple was left desolate because Jesus being in the temple was the Shekinah glory. By walking out of it and never returning ... the Shekinah glory left (Himself) never to return to a man made temple again.

    Matthew 23

    39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’

    That is ... when He returns.

    Revelation 11

    19Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.
     
  2. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lutheran Messianic Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Jewish people still have a Torah ark in every synagogue. Taking the Torah out to read from it is a big deal, their devotion to the word of God is inspiring. Christians may have outlawed sacrificial worship, but the Apostles most certainly did not and Paul participated according to Acts. Their devotion to the Temple and time spent there at the start of the movement could even classify them as a Temple cult of the time. They certainly participated in the sacrificial system until the Temple was destroyed in 70AD.
     
  3. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul argued that Gentiles should be free from the Jewish law in Acts 15. Jesus paid the temple tax as did Peter. Jesus had to attend the festivals in Jerusalem in obedience to Torah law as God sent him to preach to the Jews first. He did not adhere to the strictest Sabbath laws. He said God was working seven days a week. He tipped over the tables of those selling sacrificial animals and those changing money in the temple. He described the place as a den of thieves. Money was more important to them than truth, mercy and justice. He did not approve of some of their laws, yet was opposed to lies, adultery and murder.
     
  4. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lutheran Messianic Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I mostly agree, most of what you wrote is just a recap of the Gospels. We could take the discussion further, but it would be off topic for this thread and really this forum, so I shall leave this topic here. :)
     
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  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Read Ezekiel 43 to 46 for a detailed account of the Temple operation during the last few years before Jesus Returns.
    Then Zechariah 14:16-21 describes it after the Return.
    After the Millennium, the Temple will be no more. Revelation 21:22-24
     
  6. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    hmm.. they've said "they have it".. no clue
     
  7. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe the report that the Ark of the Covenant exists in Ethiopia and has been under guard for centuries. No one can confirm by sight what is actually in this building guarded by one priest, and when he is old, he tells the secret to one young priest who then takes over, while the old priest must die inside, and so on. It is necessary that this priest be extremely pious and devotes his life to this cause and this secret, and never leaves the temple. There is a celebration each month using a replica of the ark of the Covenant, but the actual ark is never viewed.
     
  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    It is the Sanctuary being measured in Revelation, not the Temple...........

    The Court in Revelation 11:2

    Revelation 11:

    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it.
    2 And the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
    And the holy City they shall be treading/pathsousin <3961>(5692) forty two months.
    The Jews need to read Revelation so the veil of Moses will be lifted off their face......It is indeed written in OT/OC Hebrew symbolism.....

    2 Corinthians 3:

    12 Having then such hope, we use much freedom of speech, 13 and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless
    14 But their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn — which in Christ is being made useless —
    15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
    16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil is taken away.
    17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty; 18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
    ===============
    Luke 2:32
    a light to the uncovering<602> of nations, and the glory of Thy people Israel.'

    Revelation 1:1
    An unveiling/revealing <602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
    And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.

    602. apokalupsis from 601;
    disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
    575. apo apo' a primary particle;
    "off," i.e. away (from something near),
    2572. kalupto akin to 2813 and 2928;
    to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.

    ================================
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

    One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
    That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

    95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
    That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
    ============================
    http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

    Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series Part 1


    "Teaching the things concerning the kingdom of God..."
    FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE
    Part 1

    The mark of the beast. Armageddon. The Four Horsemen. The false prophet. Babylon the great. Falling stars, stinging locusts, and giant hailstones. The seven last plagues. The bottomless pit. The lake of fire. These images of terror and catastrophe from the book of Revelation have greatly influenced the thinking of millions of Christians through the ages.

    Even the secular press uses images such as "Armageddon" and "four horsemen of the Apocalypse" to describe calamities in our world. Despite 1900 years of fascination with the book of Revelation, John’s letter to the seven Churches of Asia continues to be misunderstood. And badly misinterpreted!

    One misconception shared by some is that the Revelation has nothing of importance to say to us. It’s considered to be merely a bizarre piece of first-century writing with no relevance for today.
    Another wrong idea is that the Revelation is a code book describing a specific outline of history written in advance. Countless interpreters have tried to "decode" the book from a historical perspective to find all the major world events of the past 1900 years.
    Others interpret it more literally as a handbook for predicting the cataclysmic events that will bring the final wrath of God and the end of the world.
    The claims of Christian groups from the early church to the present — that the Revelation pinpoints the events, personalities, and time periods of "the end" — have all failed.
    This should be a caution to believers for using the book of Revelation as a predictive handbook. Other people’s interpretation of the book of Revelation is based on the "Pan Theory" — it’s all going to pan out in the end! Beloved brethren, the fact is, it’s not panning out the way the end-time prognosticators are projecting!

    Through the years I have ministered the Word in Bible studies, seminars, and church services of various types.
    When there has been a question and answer session, or when opportunity was granted for people to request teaching along a particular line, the most often requested subject has been — THE BOOK OF REVELATION!

    I have met people who were babes in Christ, carnal Christians whose lives were a mess, they had incredible problems and needs, including deliverance, and instead of prayer or counsel or messages that would help them overcome and grow up in Christ, they wanted me to teach them the book of Revelation! "Yeah, brother, that’s for me, lay it on me, I want the book of Revelation!
    ===========================
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  9. Redwingfan9

    Redwingfan9 Well-Known Member

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    The Israelis can build whatever they want. It won't be a legitimate temple because God won't dwell there. It also would have no bearing on the Christian faith nor will it have any bearing on the world generally.
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Jewish State of Israel has no desire to build the Temple. A few Israelis are trying to do it, but the State and the Moslem Wakif will not allow it.
    It will be the Israelite people of God, faithful Christians who will do it. Zechariah 6:15
     
  11. Redwingfan9

    Redwingfan9 Well-Known Member

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    There is no need for a temple, Christ did away with it. The whole point of the temple was for sacrifices, which aren't part of things anymore. Jesus is the one sacrifice we need, there's no need for a temple now.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Ummm, ok...........
    Evidently, there are some Christian sects that want it to be built to hasten the return of Christ and the "Rapture".
    Of course the Jews laugh at that as being Christian Zionist nonsense.
    Good post............


    The Greek shows the court being "cast out outside" and given to the Gentiles.....interesting

    Revelation 11:
    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
    2 and the Court/fold<833>[Lavar/Altar of Sacrifice] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations/gentiles
    and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.[Luke 21:24]

    Which is similar to Luk 21:24
    It is the same word used for the Court of the High Priest.....

    Matthew 26:3
    Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the court/fold/aulhn<833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas [Revelation 11:2]

    Notice the Court of the Priest located outside of the Sanctuary in this diagram.......

    The Bible Journey | Jesus heralds the end of the sacrificial system

    Jesus heralds the end of the sacrificial system
    Mk 11:15-19 Meanwhile, on the Monday morning, Jesus enters the outer courtyard of the Temple (see Malachi 3:1 and Map 12) and begins driving out the merchants who are selling birds to be offered as sacrifices. His symbolic actions – destroying the sacrificial system of the Temple for a short time – point towards the coming destruction of the Temple. With the ultimate sacrifice about to be paid by the death of Jesus – the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) – the Temple has outlived its purpose as the place where Jews offered sacrifices to gain God’s favour.

    The Jewish crowds would also have been well aware that Jesus, by his actions, was fulfilling Zechariah's prophesy about the start of the 'End Times': "At that time there will not be any buyers or sellers in the Temple of the LORD All-powerful." (Zechariah 14:21

    Mk 11:27-33 The following day (Tuesday), Jesus teaches beneath Solomon’s Porch in the Temple courtyards in Jerusalem (see Map 12). The chief priests and rabbis demand to know by whose authority Jesus is teaching, but Jesus replies with a counter-question (a typical form of rabbinic debate) and refuses to say anything that will give them the opportunity to arrest him.
    [​IMG]

    Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


    CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

    CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

    Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
    Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
    Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
    Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
    Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
    Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
    Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70


     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  13. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    I bet that they have the ark...... Don't underestimate these people.
     
  14. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    This is very true. However.. When the church is no longer here and the antichrist is ruling.... the bible states that the Jewish people will be following the old ways.. And, the antichrist will desecrate their holy of holys... Right?

    These will be the people who are still waiting for their messiah... To them.. sacrifices are still necessary..

    The temple will be built.. the sacrifices will resume... the ark's location ... ya... I bet they know.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    The Orthodox Church says they have and the Catholics say they have it.
    The Jews also think the Catholics have it.

    Will the Ark ever be found?



    https://www.history.com/news/fate-of-the-lost-ark-revealed


    According to the Bible, Moses had the Ark of the Covenant built to hold the Ten Commandments at the command of God. The Israelites carried the Ark with them during their 40 years spent wandering in the desert, and after the conquest of Canaan, it was brought to Shiloh. King David later took the Ark to Jerusalem, where his son and successor, Solomon, eventually installed it in the temple. Since its disappearance, some 2,000 years ago, numerous theories have arisen about its fate. One of the most well known holds that Levitical priests moved the Ark to Egypt just before the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem in 586 B.C. From there it was supposedly moved to Ethiopia, where it resides to this day in the town of Aksum, in the St. Mary of Zion cathedral. Only one man, a monk known as “the Guardian,” is allowed to see the Ark, and church authorities have never allowed it to be studied to determine its authenticity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  16. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm not sure why you think the Bible is silent on when the Ark was lost. Take a look at these passages.

    There are two suspects: Pharaoh Shishek in the 900s BC and Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon in the 500s BC.

    In the fifth year of King Rehoboam, Shishak king of Egypt attacked Jerusalem. 26 He carried off the treasures of the temple of the Lord and the treasures of the royal palace. He took everything, including all the gold shields Solomon had made.
    I Kings 14: 25-26 NIV

    The Ark of the Covenant had gold all over it and it is obviously one of the treasures of the Temple, maybe the chief treasure. Second Chronicles repeats the same thing almost word for word.

    9 When Shishak king of Egypt attacked Jerusalem, he carried off the treasures of the temple of the Lord and the treasures of the royal palace. He took everything, including the gold shields Solomon had made.
    II Chronicles 12: 9 NIV

    Then there is the other suspect, Nebuchadnezzar.

    Jehoiachin king of Judah, his mother, his attendants, his nobles and his officials all surrendered to him. In the eighth year of the reign of the king of Babylon, he took Jehoiachin prisoner. As the Lord had declared, Nebuchadnezzar removed the treasures from the temple of the Lord and from the royal palace, and cut up the gold articles that Solomon king of Israel had made for the temple of the Lord.
    II Kings 24:12-13 NIV

    Again, we have the same story in Second Chronicles.

    17 He brought up against them the king of the Babylonians,[g] who killed their young men with the sword in the sanctuary, and did not spare young men or young women, the elderly or the infirm. God gave them all into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar. 18 He carried to Babylon all the articles from the temple of God, both large and small, and the treasures of the Lord’s temple and the treasures of the king and his officials. 19 They set fire to God’s temple and broke down the wall of Jerusalem; they burned all the palaces and destroyed everything of value there.
    II Chronicles 36: 17-19 NIV


    For some reason, most historians seem to think the Ark was taken, or destroyed, by Nebuchadnezzar. I believe I've seen the date of 587 BC for this. As I pointed out above, it seems to me that Pharoah Shishek already took the "treasures of the temple," which has to include the Ark, hundreds of years earlier.

    If the priests hid the Ark in a secret tunnel, the author(s) of II Kings and II Chronicles must be fibbing to us, because they don't know anything about it.
     
  17. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Keras, I notice that you point to Ezekiel Chapter 45 as evidence that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt, although you believe that it will be rebuilt by Christians. There are at least two problems here. As far as I know, all End Times theorists assume that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt on the Temple Mount.

    Here is what the famous commentator John Gill says about the location of the Temple in Ezekiel 45:

    "This temple was to be built at a distance from the city, several
    miles; according to some ten, others twenty, and by the best account
    twenty seven miles; see Eze 45:1-5, whereas Solomon's temple, and
    that built by Zerubbabel, were in the city of Jerusalem ..."

    One clue that this new Temple can't be on the Temple Mount is the spring that issues from the Temple. The second problem is sheer size.

    No one seems to know what units of measurement Ezekiel is using but it is clear that this building is enormous. The size of this building is not credible.

    Here is what the famous commentator John Gill says on about Ezekiel 45.

    " ... that no material building can be designed is clear
    from this one observation; that not only the whole land of Israel would
    not be capable of having such a city as is here described built upon
    it, but even all Europe would not be sufficient; nor the whole world,
    according to the account of the dimensions which some give of it. The
    circumference of the city is said to be about eighteen thousand
    measures, Eze 48:35; but what they are is not certain. Luther
    makes them to be thirty six thousand German miles; and a German mile
    being three of ours, the circuit of this city must be above a hundred
    thousand English miles; and this is sufficient to set aside all
    hypotheses of a material building, either of city or temple, the one
    being in proportion to the other."

    Ezekiel's Temple probably has a spiritual meaning but as a blueprint it is too huge to be taken seriously. This is the passage that John Gill is trying to make sense of.

    “When you allot the land as a possession, you shall set apart for the Lord a portion of the land as a holy district, twenty-five thousand cubits long and twenty thousand cubits broad; it shall be holy throughout its whole extent. 2 Of this a square plot of five hundred by five hundred cubits shall be for the sanctuary, with fifty cubits for an open space around it. 3 And in the holy district you shall measure off a section twenty-five thousand cubits long and ten thousand broad, in which shall be the sanctuary, the most holy place. 4 It shall be the holy portion of the land; it shall be for the priests, who minister in the sanctuary and approach the Lord to minister to him; and it shall be a place for their houses and a holy place for the sanctuary. 5 Another section, twenty-five thousand cubits long and ten thousand cubits broad, shall be for the Levites who minister at the temple, as their possession for cities to live in.
    Ezekiel 45: 1-5 RSV

    Twenty-five thousand cubits long? This is not a blueprint.
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You confuse the Land areas with the Temple. Ezekiel doesn't actually give the overall dimensions of the Temple, however we know them from 1 Kings 6:1-10......sixty cubits long, twenty cubits wide and thirty cubits high...….

    Cubit; the distance from elbow to the fingers. Accurately determined as 18inches or 457 millimeters. Not a big building at all.

    As for who will build it, the Bible does make that clear; All who love the Lord and follow in His ways, will live in His holy Land. They will build the 'fallen house'. Isaiah 58:12, Jeremiah 30:18, Zechariah 1:16
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  19. Redwingfan9

    Redwingfan9 Well-Known Member

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    I'm post-mil, the antichrist is never going to rule in the future.
     
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  20. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Israel is a place of many wonders.... I'm sure they know it's whereabouts....but.... I am just as sure that they will never admit it.
     
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