Is the Beast in Rev 17 is all Rome ?

[jgr]

“The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46

Link?

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom​

Your argument's not with ME!

Thanks,
DaDad

divided - as Britain trying to split away? Is Britain, still in the EU, divided itself over Brexit ?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom​

Your argument's not with ME!

Thanks,
DaDad

insightful observation.

however, the statue is like a time-line, with forward time flowing "down the statue" along its height, whereas its width x depth (cross sectional area) may represent space at one "slice" of time, one single moment of time.

the statue is much like a physics (2+1)D space+time diagram, with space represented horizontally and time vertically

the statue is divided into iron mixed clay "laterally"... that is, at one moment of time, the kingdom is a mixture of iron and clay (= fired ceramics, not wet clay)

there are not 5 layers, ending in an iron from the knees to ankles (say) and "clay" (fired ceramic) from the ankles on down...

rather instead, the iron lower legs become mixed with hard-fired ceramic

the pagan Roman empire was long divided into Roman west & Greek east = 2 legs (?)

-----

divided = "peleg" (H6386) ~= Peleg son of Eber, brother of Joktan (Gen 10) (???)

miry clay = "tiyt chacaph" (H2917 H2635) = mud/dirt + earthenware/potsherd

Offer that Scripture is detailing the precise political structure of pagan Rome, which reflected the "iron strength of the Republic" which saved Europe from Hannibal Barca... mixed with the mass poverty of the masses who "lived in the dirt" and to whom the emperors catered to as "populist leaders" offering bread & circuses, even whilst they actually lived in far off remote palaces not really mingling with the rabble (per Dan 2:43)

 

[Erik Nelson]

Erik, not arguing, just making some observations and comments, okay?

Do you consider pagan Rome to have many gods at different levels?

If so, I would like to point out that the person in Daniel 11:36, considers himself at the top, but bestows gifts on a god called the fortress god. So it seems he will believe in a tier of gods - in similitude to the Romans.

And interestingly, the Abomination of Desolation act by Antiochus, which is to per-figure the end times Abomination of Desolation was a statue of Zeus placed in the temple. Antiochus himself thought he was the embodiment of Zeus in human form. I am sure he didn't have a body of his claimed god - but wouldn't you think that he may have thought he was possessed by Zeus or given Zeus's power.?

I am thinking when the person becomes the beast, he will receive supernatural power from Satan - perhaps promised -to become possessed by the unclean spirit now in the bottomless pit.

In Daniel 8, it is said the person magnifies himself in his heart. Says the same in Ezekiel 28:1-10 as the reason God has him killed - because he shows the world that he has achieved God-hood (his false claim of course). Apparently, this is so impacting because he will be in a position of power at the time when he makes the huge claim.

I don't think an insignificant person - would be as important to write about him in the bible.

Apparently Dan 11 closes with the demise of Antiochus IV:

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible

11:40 At the time of the end. The final verses of ch. 11 ... seem to continue the story of Antiochus IV and recount his downfall and death... The accounts we have of his final campaign and death differ among themselves, but they agree that Antiochus embarked on a campaign in Persia ["reports from the east & north"], failed in an attempt to rob a temple ["pitch camp near the Beautiful Mountain = Zion?"], and died an untimely death, apparently due to a sudden illness.

 

[FatalHeart]

If it's all "supposition" then GOD's playing us for fools. OR, it's all REAL, and you're attempting to deceive/distract us.

Thanks,
DaDad

A giant jump in logic and two narrow conclusions with an accusation and assumption of my character... Seems legit. XD

 

[Dave Watchman]

How then is all the heads on the 7 headed beast in REV 17 all Rome ?

I don't think they are. Only the 6th head that was wounded by the sword, and yet lives.

If the translators were consistent we would be saying the "Hill of Olives" " Hill Zion". The word is used 64 times (Strong's 3735) , 62 times translated mount or mountain.

I think you're right, mountain fits better.

Like Mount Zion. The Mount of transfiguration. In south America religious pilgrims will travel up the mountain because that's where they think their deities will dwell. It's like the "high places" in the OT. They built their pagan alters of worship on the high places.

"And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain.​

The Man of Sin will make himself the line of demarcation, between the many nations of the wicked "seas', and the glorious holy mountain. The Mount of the congregation.

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the MOUNT of the congregation.​

7 different emperors maybe?

This sounds not bad. Emperors can be kings. But can a king be a mountain? And can these mountains be made into mole hills? Five have fallen. Each of the "heads" have a blasphemous name written on them, this should be a hint that they all have something to do with religion. The diadems are on the 10 horns of this composite beast. The ten horns are government, the seven heads are the religious belief systems.

"The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;
they are also seven kings,
​

A King can also be something preeminent in it's class.

In the United States, Budweiser is the "king" of beers.

In Europe, soccer is the "king" of sports.

In the middle east, Islam is the "king" of religious belief systems.

A Chinook Salmon is called the King Salmon.

The Fish HEAD hat.

Definition of king

1a : a male monarch of a major territorial unit;especially : one whose position is hereditary and who rules for life
: a paramount chief

2capitalized : god, christ

• … to worship the King, the Lord of hosts …
• —Zechariah 14:16 (Revised Standard Version)

3: one that holds a preeminent position;especially : a chief among competitors

• the cattle kings rode up from the south
• —Alan Moorehead

• even if no longer king, cotton remains the chief cash crop
• —Howell Walker

: the principal piece of each color in chess having the power to move ordinarily one square in any direction and to capture opposing pieces but being obliged never to enter or remain in check
: a playing card marked with a stylized figure of a king
: a checker that has been crowned

7: chinook salmon​

This calls for a mind with wisdom.

At Your service,
DaDave.

 

[DaDad]

Link?

Citation. Go to a Library.

 

[DaDad]

A giant jump in logic and two narrow conclusions with an accusation and assumption of my character... Seems legit. XD

No, just responding to an accusation on GOD's Character. And given the choice, I'll trust GOD.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

...

"And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain.​

It appears to that where Jerusalem is the "center of the earth" (and it is true geography), that the U.N. will move it's headquarters to that location, declaring ownership of a contested city, declaring ~possession by none, access to all~.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

insightful observation.

Thanks, ... and validated by verse 45: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

... = fired ceramics ...

No, -- they don't stay together, so they're still malleable.
If you consider that the Roman Empire was never conquered, what new form of government did the disparate fifedoms, regions, communities, and villages turn to when the Roman Empire collapsed? -- There was NOTHING NEW to turn to, so the kept their own taxes and simply retained the Senatus Populusque Romanus, “Senate and the Roman People,” bicameral model, which we still use today throughout the world in our "divided kingdom" feet of Clay. Thus the residue of Iron.

And of course, the ten toes are known, but have not arrived on stage.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

divided - as Britain trying to split away? Is Britain, still in the EU, divided itself over Brexit ?

Why do people still promote the EU?!? The EU doesn't control hazardous shipment within the Continental United States, the U.N. does. It also controls our most important National Parks and Monuments.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't think they are. Only the 6th head that was wounded by the sword, and yet lives.

Where is your Scripture proof that the 6th head was wounded?

Revelation 13:3 KJV
[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.​

Do you even know what the heads represent in Scripture?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why do people still promote the EU?!? The EU doesn't control hazardous shipment within the Continental United States, the U.N. does. It also controls our most important National Parks and Monuments.
Thanks,
DaDad

There is NOTHING BIBLICALLY about it. Your mouth is filled with theories and speculations based on what you read in the news.

 

[Douggg]

Where is your Scripture proof that the 6th head was wounded?

It is the seventh head king that will be mortally wounded - as he is the one said to continue a short space... the 42 months.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

[DaDad]

It is the seventh head king that will be mortally wounded - as he is the one said to continue a short space... the 42 months.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Pretty Funny.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, no.

Doesn't anyone have a "clue"?
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

“The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46

Citation. Go to a Library.

There's no record of the existence of this article, including on the UN Chronicle site. They've obviously trashed it.

Unsurprisingly, 25 years later, there is no discussion regarding expanding the size of the permanent portion of the Security Council, recognizing that it would only exacerbate existing dysfunctionality.

Might as well toss your article into the round file as well. You'll have to devise an alternative futurized explanation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Pretty Funny.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, no.

Doesn't anyone have a "clue"?
Thanks,
DaDad

You have no clues.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Where is your Scripture proof that the 6th head was wounded?

Revelation 13:3 KJV
[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

"Five have fallen, one IS, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.​

When the angel was talking to John in or around AD95, the new Christian Church was just forming. It would become the one that we call Catholic. The one that had not yet come, came in 1529 and would become known as Protestantism.

In 1798 the Catholic Church was dealt with what looked like a fatal blow. Pope Pius was captured during the French Revolution and died in a jail cell. The Vatican was closed down until Benito Mussolini opened it up again in 1929.

It's looking pretty healed up right now. I can hear the composite beast open it's mouth to blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

Do you even know what the heads represent in Scripture?

In this case they're kings and mountains and blasphemous names. They're the seven religious belief systems. Every person on earth can trace their affiliation to one of these heads that are preeminent in their class. And they're mostly all fallen at this point, come out of her my people, proven false by the work that the Lamb did on the cross for us.

Worthy is the Lamb.
Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[jgr]

The eastern half of he Roman Empire is the Roman Empire proper. The capitol was moved in 333 AD to Constantinople. That is not a disputable opinion. The fact that they eventually adopted Greek as the official language is meaningless.
Septimius Severus's (who is the little horn of Daniel 7) son, the next emperor, made all non slaves in the entire empire Roman Citizens. They were both Africans. Being Italian from that point on ceased to be a factor in the emperor-ship. It went to whoever could win it of all nationalities.

Were the Reformers wrong regarding the papal Roman empire?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Were the Reformers wrong regarding the papal Roman empire?

There is no such thing as a Papal Roman Empire, so yes. The Roman Church was the official religion of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was not the official empire of the Papal church. The Holy Roman Empire also had an emperor, the pope was not its head. That is all besides the point which is this. The Roman Empire was nothing unusual as far as world empires were concerned. All empires and kingdoms persecuted Christians pretty much equally. What the Roman Empire does do as far as prophecy is concerned is it gives us a timeline to tell us when the age that had been promised throughout scripture would begin. At its end which was 1453 AD.

What occurred when it ended was very simple. For the first time in human history the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. This happened because of the commercial printing presses that came on line the very year the empire ended. The first place the general public got Bibles was Northern Europe. The second thing that happened was the kingdoms and empires could not conquer the peoples armed with Bibles. This was also a first in human history outside of ancient Israel.

The difference between the reformers and the Roman church and other imperial churches of the European kings? Very simple. The first was the non Bible possessing non Bible reading world. The second was the Bible possessing Bible reading world. Today you see the world divided between two camps. The Christians and non Christians who accept varying degrees of Biblical principle and want to run their lives and nations according to it verses; those who are ignorant or reject Bible principle. It the war behind all wars now, globally. Guess who the Bible says will come out on top of this war even though there will be setbacks, backsldings, lost battles? The nations most influenced by the Bible. That is the future as far as human beings are to be concerned.