Is Halloween evil sinful

Root of Jesse

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Muslims and voodoo do most of these.
Neither are actually Christian...
I never said they did! What I said was the trappings are all pagan in origin.

Xmas trees, yule logs, boars head festival. Even the day is a day picked to placate the pagans for saturnalia and the winter solstice. Jesus was most likely born in late Sept-early Oct.

At Christmas, I usually hold a teaching on how we can "redeem" teh Christmas tree.
Trees, logs, boars heads are not to celebrate the birth of Christ. I have as much evidence that Christ was born Dec. 25, and as accurate, as you have that he was born in Sept-Oct.
Well these "imaginary" feasts were well practiced in Rome, Greece, and Egypt. you are just way too sceptical. YOu should do some reading on pagan religions.
By pagans...maybe. But Rome didn't practice Ishtar...
Never said they did.

REd Herring.
You did suggest that those things were pagan.
Well the ashteroth Pole was the first known pole. Found with the Canaanites, it wove its way among many ethnos. The maypole in Europe started in Germany and its origins are mostly relegated to myth and anecdotes. But it is attributed to the worship of their pagan gods originally. Some attribute the use of the pole tpo its irigns with the Caananites and how it moved from culture to culture. It was used in the Roman Empire and that is where the germans may have adopted it.
How is the Maypole a Christian thing?
 
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nolidad

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By pagans...maybe. But Rome didn't practice Ishtar...

Rome was pagan for a long long time and worshipped multiple gods. Course that was until after Constantine made Christianity the favored religion and lots of pagans made superficial conversions to stay in favor with power!

Trees, logs, boars heads are not to celebrate the birth of Christ. I have as much evidence that Christ was born Dec. 25, and as accurate, as you have that he was born in Sept-Oct.

Well I will await your evidence Jesus was born Dec. 25th.

All those things became "christianized over time. By that I mean they became part of the celebration of Christmas. what most do today I do not think God would consider an honest celebration of Jesus' birth.

How is the Maypole a Christian thing?

Because churches allowed their congregants in Europe and america to celebrate with maypoles.
 
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nolidad

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You did suggest that those things were pagan.

No, what I said is that pagans do those things as well! Not that they were "pagan" things. that is your conclusion of my answer to another.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Rome was pagan for a long long time and worshipped multiple gods. Course that was until after Constantine made Christianity the favored religion and lots of pagans made superficial conversions to stay in favor with power!
Constantine did no such thing. He merely made it legal to practice it.
Well I will await your evidence Jesus was born Dec. 25th.
As I will await the evidence for his Sept/Oct. birth.
All those things became "christianized over time. By that I mean they became part of the celebration of Christmas. what most do today I do not think God would consider an honest celebration of Jesus' birth.
None of those things has ANYTHING to do with celebration of Jesus' birth. They are secular celebrations which proclaim "Round yon virgin, mother and child", then forget all about it, and return to drinking and merry-making.
Because churches allowed their congregants in Europe and america to celebrate with maypoles.
celebrate what? As far as I can tell, it's a secular Germanic custom.
 
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Root of Jesse

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No, what I said is that pagans do those things as well! Not that they were "pagan" things. that is your conclusion of my answer to another.
So what, if pagans do those things. What is your reason for stating that?
 
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Jipsah

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No, what I said is that pagans do those things as well! Not that they were "pagan" things.
Pagans also worshiped, prayed, sang, and did most of the "religious" stuff that Jews did and Christians do. Do we need to leave off that stuff based on what some long-dead and unknown pagans whose "gods" never existed may have done? Should Christians be forbidden to worship the Lord on any day ending in Y because some poor benighted pagan may have done something on that day 10000 yers ago next Thor's, oops, that's Thursday?
 
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nolidad

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Constantine did no such thing. He merely made it legal to practice it.

Read unrevised history and learn.

celebrate what? As far as I can tell, it's a secular Germanic custom.

Get an american culture history book and see how churches never condemend it and many many people had kids celebrate it!

None of those things has ANYTHING to do with celebration of Jesus' birth. They are secular celebrations which proclaim "Round yon virgin, mother and child", then forget all about it, and return to drinking and merry-making.

Well don't let all the churches know who adorn trees yule logs, pointseetas etc.

As I will await the evidence for his Sept/Oct. birth.

KJ21
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

Shepherds do not have their flocks in the fields at night in the winter in Bethelehem! It is too cold.

Now our dec. 25th proof.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Read unrevised history and learn.
As a student of history, I already know. Thanks. It's your history that's revised.
Get an american culture history book and see how churches never condemend it and many many people had kids celebrate it!
Why do people or institutions have to condemn something? If it offends you, don't do it, don't watch it, etc. So what if children dance around a pole. They play hopscotch, too, which, I'm sure, can be found to be pagan in origin!
Well don't let all the churches know who adorn trees yule logs, pointseetas etc.
If they do, does that mean it's how they worship Christ? Trees and poinsettia are God's creation, and I've never seen a campfire built in a church. I believe they do it to welcome Christ into the world, symbolically.
KJ21
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

Shepherds do not have their flocks in the fields at night in the winter in Bethelehem! It is too cold.
What is 'too cold'? Do a little research, and you will find that it averages about 50 degrees and 40 at night. Bethlehem, being 2500 ft. above sea level, would not be exactly where the shepherds would be.
So it doesn't really prove anything.
I just wanted to see your reasoning.
Now our dec. 25th proof.
Well, I must amend my statement. The date of Christmas is actually the date he was discovered by the Magi. And worshiped.
You see, the Star of Bethlehem recounts and actual event in the universe. It can be recreated with modern computer software. And if you know where to look in time, you can find that event. If you're interested, please see Setting the Stage – The Star of Bethlehem.
 
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nolidad

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As a student of history, I already know. Thanks. It's your history that's revised.

Wrong but okay.

Why do people or institutions have to condemn something? If it offends you, don't do it, don't watch it, etc. So what if children dance around a pole. They play hopscotch, too, which, I'm sure, can be found to be pagan in origin!

I wasn't placing a judgment on it, just showing its origins.

If they do, does that mean it's how they worship Christ? Trees and poinsettia are God's creation, and I've never seen a campfire built in a church. I believe they do it to welcome Christ into the world, symbolically.

And I have no problem with that.

What is 'too cold'? Do a little research, and you will find that it averages about 50 degrees and 40 at night. Bethlehem, being 2500 ft. above sea level, would not be exactly where the shepherds would be.
So it doesn't really prove anything.
I just wanted to see your reasoning.

I was there and asked people who live there. 40 at night is too cold to keep flocks in teh field. We don't do it here, and they don't do it there! C'mon man you can do better.


Well, I must amend my statement. The date of Christmas is actually the date he was discovered by the Magi. And worshiped.
You see, the Star of Bethlehem recounts and actual event in the universe. It can be recreated with modern computer software. And if you know where to look in time, you can find that event. If you're interested, please see Setting the Stage – The Star of Bethlehem.

Better call the vatican, they set early January as the feast of the epiphany!

Also real problems with your article on the star!
 
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Root of Jesse

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Wrong but okay.



I wasn't placing a judgment on it, just showing its origins.
If you say so
And I have no problem with that.
If you say so
I was there and asked people who live there. 40 at night is too cold to keep flocks in teh field. We don't do it here, and they don't do it there! C'mon man you can do better.
Don't vs. didn't. Scripture tells us of the celestial events, and with a little detective work, we can piece it together, even given the changes in calendar. But you believe what you want, if that's what you believe.
Better call the vatican, they set early January as the feast of the epiphany!

Also real problems with your article on the star!
Actually, the entire season is included. But who's to say, because we compress into one year all the feasts. So this Easter, we're actually celebrating for the Christmas of 33 years ago, lol. Regarding the article, again, you believe what you wish. It's not dogmatic, and hinges on one mistranslation, but it is the most plausible I've seen. Of course, you didn't say what was the real problems, and it's easy to flush the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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nolidad

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Don't vs. didn't. Scripture tells us of the celestial events, and with a little detective work, we can piece it together, even given the changes in calendar. But you believe what you want, if that's what you believe.

Did you know that the wise men came to visit Jesus when He was around two years old? did you bother to notice the difference in the narratives between His birth and the visit.

He was born in a cave in a feed trough and the wise men visited in the house they were living in !

Also there were two different greek words with different age meanings describing Jesus in the manger and Jesus in the house! brewphos v. paidon

Also it wasn't a star, or comet, or meteor or planet. None of these can point to a specific house where someone lives in! They do not move east to west AND north to south. This was most likely the Shechinah glory of God that the magi followed. They also probably knew of the writings of Daniel (being from Persia) So hhis "star" was so unique as to cause them to caravan through the desert to worship teh King!

These are all the real problems with the standard Christmas story. they don't follow all of the Scripture accounts and forget the little details that make a huge difference.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Did you know that the wise men came to visit Jesus when He was around two years old? did you bother to notice the difference in the narratives between His birth and the visit.

He was born in a cave in a feed trough and the wise men visited in the house they were living in !

Also there were two different greek words with different age meanings describing Jesus in the manger and Jesus in the house! brewphos v. paidon

Also it wasn't a star, or comet, or meteor or planet. None of these can point to a specific house where someone lives in! They do not move east to west AND north to south. This was most likely the Shechinah glory of God that the magi followed. They also probably knew of the writings of Daniel (being from Persia) So hhis "star" was so unique as to cause them to caravan through the desert to worship teh King!

These are all the real problems with the standard Christmas story. they don't follow all of the Scripture accounts and forget the little details that make a huge difference.
So you didn't check out the website. Because the website specifically goes through all those questions about what the 'star' was. And it is exactly the Daniel prophecy they followed, and was so unique it probably never ever happened before, or since. Which means God ordained it to happen exactly as it was.
I don't know that Jesus was already two years old when the Magi visited. You don't know, either. Herod demanded that all the children 2 years old and under to be executed after he found out the Magi didn't come back. Also, why was Jesus going to stay for a long time in Bethlehem after his birth? Especially when Joseph was told in a dream to take the child to Egypt...I agree that he was born in a cave, I fervently believe that. But where he was born is irrelevant. I am certain that, as soon as they could, they found room in a house to take care of him.
 
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nolidad

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So you didn't check out the website. Because the website specifically goes through all those questions about what the 'star' was. And it is exactly the Daniel prophecy they followed, and was so unique it probably never ever happened before, or since. Which means God ordained it to happen exactly as it was.
I don't know that Jesus was already two years old when the Magi visited. You don't know, either. Herod demanded that all the children 2 years old and under to be executed after he found out the Magi didn't come back. Also, why was Jesus going to stay for a long time in Bethlehem after his birth? Especially when Joseph was told in a dream to take the child to Egypt...I agree that he was born in a cave, I fervently believe that. But where he was born is irrelevant. I am certain that, as soon as they could, they found room in a house to take care of him.

Well I didn't read it all for it is a very lengthy article. but it was seriously tracking it as a heavenly body of some sort, and it simply cannot be! There is no heavenly body that can pinpoint specific coordinates like a house! This did!

Joseph was told in a dream after the three caravans came to Bethlehem and the wise men came and worshipped the child. Herod picked two years in all probability ( yes we were not there but Herod was not a moron) based on the dating of the wise men.

He was definitely past the newborn age and was a small infant. The greek that is inspired bears that out!

1. the census meant that there was massive disruption for quite a period of time!
2. The inspired language does not allow Jesus to be a newborn (that is up to a year in Jewish reckoning)
3. The wise mens' journey was a lengthy trip! You just don't travel with a caravan in the desert and move fast! 10-15 miles a day is a fast fast pace with camels in a desert. the most direct route TODAY (far more advanced than in Jesus day) puts the border of Persia approx. 1380 miles to Bethlehem.

these are just the simple facts of the day of normal life and travel. that let us know it wasn't a heavenly body and that Jesus was 2 years or close to two years!
 
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coffee4u

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So you didn't check out the website. Because the website specifically goes through all those questions about what the 'star' was. And it is exactly the Daniel prophecy they followed, and was so unique it probably never ever happened before, or since. Which means God ordained it to happen exactly as it was.
I don't know that Jesus was already two years old when the Magi visited. You don't know, either. Herod demanded that all the children 2 years old and under to be executed after he found out the Magi didn't come back. Also, why was Jesus going to stay for a long time in Bethlehem after his birth? Especially when Joseph was told in a dream to take the child to Egypt...I agree that he was born in a cave, I fervently believe that. But where he was born is irrelevant. I am certain that, as soon as they could, they found room in a house to take care of him.

He was a child, not a baby when the Magi arrived, that is well know.
 
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Root of Jesse

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He was a child, not a baby when the Magi arrived, that is well know.
Where does it say that, in the Bible. I assume you are a Sola Scriptura adherent?
 
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coffee4u

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Where does it say that, in the Bible. I assume you are a Sola Scriptura adherent?

Yes, I am.

Luke 2:12

12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.


βρέφος
brephos a baby

In the gospel of Matthew it tells later some Magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem asking where the king of the Jews had been born? (Matthew 2)
2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


They had to come from the east probably by camel. We are not given an exact date of arrival or their starting location, but it wasn't 5km down the road. Jews considered the area of northern Arabia, Syria, and Mesopotamia as the 'East.'
Example" Genesis 29:1, 4 Haran was the east. and other verses go further, so anywhere from 600 to over a 1000 km away. (400-700 miles) away.
A considerable journey.

When they arrived Jesus was no longer a newborn in a stable but a child in a house.
Matthew 2:11
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

παιδίον
paidionChild

Which is why Herod ordered all boys 2 and under to be killed. It wasn't a wild guess but an educated one from what the magi had told him. Jesus was somewhere between 1 and 2 years of age.
Matthew 2:16
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Yes, I am.

Luke 2:12

12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.


βρέφος
brephos a baby

In the gospel of Matthew it tells later some Magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem asking where the king of the Jews had been born? (Matthew 2)
2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
The reason Jesus was born in a cave was because there was no room at the time. There is no mention of a timeframe for Jesus to be moved to a house, but it seems reasonable that people would make room for a newborn. It does not seem reasonable that Joseph had a house in Bethlehem. If he did, there would have been room in his home for Jesus to be born.
They had to come from the east probably by camel. We are not given an exact date of arrival or their starting location, but it wasn't 5km down the road. Jews considered the area of northern Arabia, Syria, and Mesopotamia as the 'East.'
Example" Genesis 29:1, 4 Haran was the east. and other verses go further, so anywhere from 600 to over a 1000 km away. (400-700 miles) away.
A considerable journey.
There is also no mention of how long before the birth the star shone or when it stopped. I believe they came from Persia.
When they arrived Jesus was no longer a newborn in a stable but a child in a house.
Matthew 2:11
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

παιδίον
paidionChild
The reason Jesus was born in a cave was because there was no room in the inn at the time. There is no mention of a timeframe for Jesus to be moved to a house, but it seems reasonable that people would make room for a newborn. It does not seem reasonable that Joseph had a house in Bethlehem. If he did, there would have been room in his home for Jesus to be born.
Which is why Herod ordered all boys 2 and under to be killed. It wasn't a wild guess but an educated one from what the magi had told him. Jesus was somewhere between 1 and 2 years of age.
Matthew 2:16
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
I guess you're trying to say that the star event happened at the moment of Jesus' birth, and that the Magi made preparations and left at that time. It might have taken a month for them to travel to Bethlehem.

Finally, to put a period to this, the Catholic Church celebrates Jesus’ birth on December 25, but this is a matter of custom rather than doctrine. It is not Church teaching that this is when Jesus was born (note that the matter isn’t even mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church).
Second, although most Christians today celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25, this was not the only date proposed. Around A.D. 194, Clement of Alexandria stated Christ was born November 18. Other early proposals included January 10, April 19 or 20, and May 20 (Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, 2nd ed., §488, §553). By far the most common proposals, however, were January 6 (ibid., §§554–61) and December 25 (ibid., §§562–68).

While the last was eventually adopted by the Catholic Church for use in its liturgy, the fact that the Church did not declare alternate proposals heretical shows the matter was not considered essential to the Faith.

Third, the proposals that put Jesus’ birth in the colder part of the year (November 18, December 25, January 6, and January 10) are not ruled out by the fact that there were shepherds keeping watch over their flocks at night.

Ancient Jews did not have large indoor spaces for housing sheep. Flocks were kept outdoors during winter in Judaea, as they are elsewhere in the world today, including in places where snow is common (search for “winter sheep care” on the Internet). Sheep are adapted to life outdoors. That’s why they have wool, which keeps body heat in and moisture out.

Sheep are kept outdoors in winter in Israel today: “William Hendricksen quotes a letter dated Jan. 16, 1967, received from the New Testament scholar Harry Mulder, then teaching in Beirut, in which the latter tells of being in Shepherd Field at Bethlehem on the just passed Christmas Eve, and says: “Right near us a few flocks of sheep were nestled. Even the lambs were not lacking. . . . It is therefore definitely not impossible that the Lord Jesus was born in December’” (ibid., §569).
The Timing of Christmas
 
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coffee4u

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You appear to have your quotes or something messed up and I can't really follow what you are saying.

But the main thing is when Jesus was born the verse used was the word baby.
βρέφος
brephos a baby

Later the verses state that he was in a house and the word used was child.
παιδίον
paidionChild

He was not a tiny infant when they fled Egypt but a toddler.

I know he was born in an animal shelter (cave, stable) because there was not enough room at the inn, I have read those verses, thankyou all the same.

I also know the 25th is a custom and very unlikely to be the actual date.

I am also not saying when the star appeared because the bible doesn't tell us. I was simply pointing out that it would have taken the magi some months to travel once they did see it.

It wasn't as nativity scenes depict with huddled shepherds and magi together in a stable overlooking a newborn Christ. That is a child’s picture the same way a bobbing rounded ark with giraffe heads poking out the top is.
Reality is that while the shepherds arrived soon after his birth, the magi arrived at a house with a toddler.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You appear to have your quotes or something messed up and I can't really follow what you are saying.

But the main thing is when Jesus was born the verse used was the word baby.
βρέφος
brephos a baby

Later the verses state that he was in a house and the word used was child.
παιδίον
paidionChild
According to Strong's, paidion can be an infant, so that's still a supposition of yours...
paidion



1) a young child, a little boy, a little girl



1a) infants

1b) children, little ones

1c) an infant



1c1) of a (male) child just recently born



1d) of a more advanced child; of a mature child

1e) metaphorically children (like children) in intellect[/quote]
He was not a tiny infant when they fled Egypt but a toddler.

I know he was born in an animal shelter (cave, stable) because there was not enough room at the inn, I have read those verses, thankyou all the same.
[/quote]So it is wrong to believe that, the next day, they made room for the new family? That was my point. Yes, yes, I know it's not in Scripture, but neither is it necessarily Scriptural that the child was a toddler when the Magi arrived, nor when they fled to Egypt.
I also know the 25th is a custom and very unlikely to be the actual date.
And yet there is evidence that it is.
I am also not saying when the star appeared because the bible doesn't tell us. I was simply pointing out that it would have taken the magi some months to travel once they did see it.
Maybe not. Look it up. A camel caravan can travel up to 3 mph 14 hrs a day, and from Iran, it's about 1200 miles. So maybe a month or a little more.
It wasn't as nativity scenes depict with huddled shepherds and magi together in a stable overlooking a newborn Christ. That is a child’s picture the same way a bobbing rounded ark with giraffe heads poking out the top is.
Really? /sarcasm...A nativity scene is a compression and incorporates all the elements of the story. To be authentic, the child shouldn't be in the manger until Christmas day, and the shepherds shouldn't be in the scene until Christmas day, and the magi should be added for Epiphany. The empty manger with no shepherds and magi indicates the period of Advent, when we're waiting for our Lord to arrive.
Reality is that while the shepherds arrived soon after his birth, the magi arrived at a house with a toddler.
That's your interpretation, and that's fine. There is nothing that says definitively that Jesus was born on Dec. 25, nor any definitive about when who arrived. My only objection is the statement that it wasn't Dec. 25, and I believe there is some evidence that it might have been.
I think the point of all this is that you can believe what you want, there's no definitive about it. But there have been mystics and others who have seen the time, and others with astronomy software have rewound to the period and with the understanding that the universe is God's timeframe, and that nothing is accidental, it can be shown why the date could be correct.
 
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