The beginning of wisdom.

[Xeno.of.athens]

I watched a movie called American Fiction. It made me think about the difference between empathy, sympathy, and personal visceral experience, and that made me think about wisdom in distinction from being learned about a matter, learned yet without personal visceral experience.

The movie is about telling people what it is like to be <substitute a subject here, in the movie the subject was "being black"> in distinction from actually being <same subject here>. And that lead me to think about the gospel.

Our Calvinist brethren like to emphasise God's grace in conversion, while Catholics like to emphasise human choice within the confines of God's grace in conversion. The two are not so different. There are differences, but not the obvious ones. And the Calvinist Vs Catholic perspective on salvation isn't my topic here but it leads to the topic I am addressing. That topic is:

can a person become a Christian without conscious personal visceral experience of grace?​

I ask readers to respond prudently.

 

[Neogaia777]

I watched a movie called American Fiction. It made me think about the difference between empathy, sympathy, and personal visceral experience, and that made me think about wisdom in distinction from being learned about a matter, learned yet without personal visceral experience.

The movie is about telling people what it is like to be <substitute a subject here, in the movie the subject was "being black"> in distinction from actually being <same subject here>. And that lead me to think about the gospel.

Our Calvinist brethren like to emphasise God's grace in conversion, while Catholics like to emphasise human choice within the confines of God's grace in conversion. The two are not so different. There are differences, but not the obvious ones. And the Calvinist Vs Catholic perspective on salvation isn't my topic here but it leads to the topic I am addressing. That topic is:

can a person become a Christian without conscious personal visceral experience of grace?​

I ask readers to respond prudently.

Well, if one is truly a wise person, then they can learn many, many things without personally having gone through them and/or experiencing them, etc.

However, many do not truly learn this wisdom until they have experienced some things first, etc.

But as for being saved, or being a Christian, I do not think one truly can be without first experiencing the feeling of being forgiven in their own life first much of the time, and then after that, not ever letting go of, or not ever forgetting that feeling/experience for the rest of their life after that much of the time, etc.

Now, can a non-visceral experience provoke that to where it becomes permanent in someone's own life after that sometimes, etc?

I don't know? Maybe?

It would probably have to be something pretty powerful though either way though, etc.

And for a lot of us, that means going through some, or a lot of things personally first sometimes, etc.

But it might not have to be that way for everybody, etc.

Good preaching is supposed to be able to do it sometimes, etc? And so is relating to or identifying with certain things in God's word sometimes, etc? And then there is also the conviction caused by God's Holy Spirit with a lot of other things that we hear about and/or see (or personally experience) in life sometimes, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

An intellectual assent can be the result of, or the prerequisite of a visceral experience.
The key concept in Christianity is belief, with or without a conscious personal visceral experience of grace.

 

[Bob Crowley]

To some extent I think it depends on the person. At one point Christ said in Luke 7:47 (NIV) "Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

This was the woman who anointed his feet with ointment and wiped them with her hair. Tradition has it she was probably a prostitute.

I think those who have been forgiven much tend to have more of a "personal visceral experience of grace" than those who have lived holy lives from the outset.

"Amazing Grace" was written by John Newton. Prior to becoming a Christian he'd been a slave trader and had engaged in shocking behaviour.

When I read a small biography or autobiography about him, what amazed me was the number of close shaves he had and yet survived. He should have died several times.

When he looked back on his life I think he became aware that it was God's grace that brought him through, hence "Amazing Grace". He didn't describe himself as a "wretch" for no reason.

On the other hand I've known people who have lived blameless lives by any standard, and they've really been on fire for God. So who knows?

I think that for any person to take Christ seriously he or she needs to have some sort of personal encounter with God.

 

[hislegacy]

can a person become a Christian without conscious personal visceral experience of grace?

The term you use is very broad and generalized - perhaps a literal example as to what you refer to as "personal visceral experience" looks like in real life. Especially coming from a Catholic perspective. I grew up in a Seminarians home, my uncles were in the Diaconate, I survive Catholic Elementary and High School. I went to mass every week - confession every week - acts of contrition every week for 25 years and never one heard anything about an experience with Grace.

So I am interested in your point of view.