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Is faith enough?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by ByTheSpirit, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Hi Marvin. You are being addressed because you addressed me in your opening post in this thread. This was simply a reply to that.

    Marvin, the problem is that you did not give your teaching. You simply quoted me, and then quoted a Bible verse below it as if that was sufficient for explanation.
     
  2. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I have no idea how to make it clearer it's pretty clear what I mean.
    I don't mind if you just say that you don't want to answer the question. It's certainly better than just rehashing all of this unrelated stuff....the question if you remember was about asking for something that is not spiritually good for us. Yet the teaching says if we ask for it it is ours so if we ask for something sinful and we receive it because the teaching says we do then spiritual healing has NOT happened...that is the point. The teaching as given removes from our understanding spiritual healing and God's will and purpose for our lives. Your words seemed to indicate that if we ask for something that would hurt us spiritually we wouldn't receive it yet here you are trying to argue that we would receive it....it's so confusing and instead of answering the questions every teacher of this doctrine I have so far been privileged to talk to does exactly as you are doing here and avoiding even trying to answer the question which makes me wonder why?
    what the thorn was has no bearing on the question at all. No matter what the thorn was, Paul asked for it to be removed...did he lack faith the reason that it was not removed as per his asking in faith believing? That is the question. Trying to argue what the thorn was is totally evading the question and not something I am willing to do.
    exactly...it was God's will trumping Paul's prayer of faith...unless of course you want to try to argue that Paul didn't have enough faith for His prayer to be answered as he asked....but that is the question being asked now isn't it and you refuse to answer the question. why did Paul not receive what he asked for in prayer believing? Do you really believe he lacked faith?
    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. My entire perspective and I have been clear about it is that God's will trumps our prayers and when we pray in His name we are praying for His will to be done. I am sure that over the centuries Paul was not the only person who needed to learn something from suffering. REAL FAITH IS TRUSTING GOD NO MATTER WHAT HIS WILL FOR US IS.
    exactly...once against we see God's will trumping the prayer of faith. What I have found over the years of faith as well as examples from other men and woman of faith is that when we "demand" our prayers be answered we are the one's who are lacking faith to see our prayers answered for our prayers should always be, "nevertheless not my will but thine be done." The person of faith can accept that as an answer because they completely trust God to be true to His promises thus the person of faith has no doubt that God's answer no matter what it is is for the good of the person praying and will bring about God's good and wonderful and perfect will. What a wonderful freedom in Christ to be able to trust Him to be true to His promises without having to worry about saying the right words or having "enough faith" or persevering long enough or whatever other excuse we might muster up but rather simply trust that He will conform our wills to His will and in that rest.

    Let me tell you a quick little story. We were living in a very difficult place. For years and years we prayed for God to deliver us and we absolutely had faith to believe that He would and everyday expected that deliverance but years went by and we were not delivered. One day I heard of a woman and her child that needed to move and was asking for prayer that they move. So I began to pray that they would move. As I prayed God asked me what I would give for them to move. I replied, why should I give anything since YOU are big enough to move them without my sacrifice. Again God said to me...what are you willing to give, would you be willing to stay where you are for this one to be able to move. Again I argued with God...we both can move, because YOU are that big. Again God spoke...I can but I am asking you what you are willing to give. Eventually I agreed that I would stay in our situation willingly if God would move them. Within the week the other family moved and we lived in our situation a while longer.

    The point of the story is this. God had something to teach me and the lesson was that Love and the prayer of Love doesn't depend on me and what I desire but on Him and His grace and truth alone. The prayer of Love is one that is not based on pride but on humility. It is a prayer of Love that mirrors the Christ who said, yes I will die that they might Live.

    Prayers of faith are prayers that transform our desires into His desires and in that discover that mountains do move, healing does happen, and grace abounds for all no matter what the immediate answer is.
    see this is the problem I have with the teaching and what I don't understand about it which is why I am looking for someone to explain it to me. I guess you finally did explain it but I simply can't agree. FAITH is complete trust in God and His promises. Christ did not lack that trust/faith in fact, He was the epitome of that faith. He put complete and total trust in God and His promises and accepted that perfect will of the FAther as the Father promised.

    Romans 8:28 real faith doesn't question promises of God like this one but rather rests in confidence that the promise is accomplished as He ordained. I could tell you a story about that too if you like...
    but notice the key words you yourself post here...."not in the will of God" The key to receiving in faith is trusting that the answer no matter what it is is for our good according to God's will and perfect Love...the key is not what we ask for but in God's will according to His promises.
    IF IT IS IN GOD"S WILL...as in "in My name" that statement means according to His will as we see time and time and time again in scripture.
    I struggle to understand this seemingly foreign teaching I do not struggle with God's answer to prayer for I have seen it way too many times to question that His promises are absolute.
    wow...what do you think faith is? Seriously...I'm not playing a game in trying to understand what you are trying to claim here...what exactly do you think faith is? Where do you get this understanding of what faith is?
    now you seem to be waffling back to the notion that God's will trumps our "faith desires"...it's so confusing.
    not sure how that comes into the question I am asking of your ideas, but okay...
    you lack faith to lay hands on a loved one and see them healed? Hum...maybe I just don't understand that kind of lack of faith. Maybe that is why I can't understand what you are saying...but then again maybe it is your idea of faith that is the problem in my understanding...as if we have a different idea of what faith is....hum....
    interesting story...I have had several people tell me that when I pray for them it was the first time they ever felt "power" when someone prayed for them. Some of them were healed immediately some not...some never healed to this day. But they felt power none the less according to their testimony. Why do you think that is if God's will doesn't always trump ours when it comes to prayers of faith? According to your theology in this matter...
    have you asked yourself if your laying hands on the person was done according to scripture? WE are told that if any are sick to call upon the elders which is all most of us think about but the rest of the teaching is to confess one to another. Have you prayed in faith for the sick after a time of confession both of the sick and of you/elders doing the praying? Just a thought for what it's worth. Obedience is important to God after all.
    which is why I am asking since my careful study leaves me with something different and I want to know if I am missing something...
    I don't understand what you are talking about here...if it is in scripture it should be taught at least that is where I stand. If we want to discard all the positive or negative we aren't teaching all of Christ.
    I look forward to some of your answers to the questions I still have.
     
  3. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    He also says to seek Him and His kingdom first and all these things will be given to us because He knows what we need before we even ask....seems to me we should be focused on seeking after God and His will over the things He already has given we just haven't received yet. Seems to me that trusting His promises is faith...
     
  4. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    Okay this helps my understanding some, thanks...so two questions...1. are you talking only the atonement or the atonement and promises and 2. if promises are included, where do we find the promises we are suppose to be trusting in? For example and this is just an example not a I agree or disagree... Isaiah 53 talks about by his stripes we are healed but in context of the passage it is talking about spiritual healing not physical...thus we cannot use it as a promise for physical healing (again that is not to say there isn't a promise for physical healing that would be another discussion)
     
  5. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    But isn't Christ's prayer in the garden the perfect picture of a prayer of faith believing? It is about our wills lining up with God's will no matter what our flesh desires?
     
  6. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Hebrews 7.25 is an example of the Lord Jesus interceding on behalf of those who trust Him.
     
  7. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    As best I can tell you and I are not so far from one another except in what you consider promises of God and God's will over ours...as in He wants wants trumps what we want...iow's I believe that God's promises are guaranteed but I don't think we always understand the promise because we are trying to see it through the eyes of the flesh rather than the eyes of the spirit.
     
  8. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Proverbs 3.5-6 contains general promises about rock solid Divine faithfulness; it's not an exactly description of what God's physical health plan is for every individual.

    "Thy will be done" is an important aspect also.
     
  9. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    You said, "We don't claim what we want in faith."

    I quoted he verse which says, "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him." Mark 11:23

    I think the verse speaks for itself. Which is why I just printed it out by itself.

    I could have included other verses. But that one answered your incorrect statement well enough that I left it at that.
     
  10. salt-n-light

    salt-n-light Well-Known Member Supporter

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    " ...because Jesus!". Welcome to 2017, lol!

    This should be a shirt or something, i feel like its been a go-to phrase to say.
     
  11. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Hebrews 12.2 a similar thought?
     
  12. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    I'm tempted to add it to my sig but I fear it would not be seen as friendly. That and my current one inspires too much good discussion. I actually like to change it up but I may not be able to now.

    But sometimes the meme is very appropriate, I'm afraid.
     
  13. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    What I'm trying to say is that it did not speak for itself, even yet, and that is why I replied while having to assume your message through the verse.

    There is no verse in the Bible that will speak for the idea that "we claim what we want in faith". Such a thing would be logically inconsistent in regards to God's nature because it's openness entails we can claim evil upon ourselves and others and God will grant it simply because we bare the claim with faith.

    Paul asked God to have a thorn removed from his flesh but God refused. Was Paul weak in faith? Did he fail to pray properly because he didn't "claim it" in the name of Jesus? Neither. God gave Paul what he unknowingly desired - Grace.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  14. Theadorus

    Theadorus Active Member Supporter

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    I'm so happy to hear you found Christ at such a young age, and that he revealed himself to you. Sorry that you life situation wasn't so easy. I was suicidal for years as a tween and teen. But I can assure you that it wasn't God's will for you to suffer. Unfortunately people make bad choices, and we can sometimes (and do) suffer for them. For example, I got into drugs and Alcohol for 7 years, and after those 7 years I hit rock bottom and finally came back to Christ. Was it God's will for me to become and Alcoholic and druggie, because it was after that period I finally decided to answer God's call on my life? No it wasn't. IF anything, it was God's will for me not to fall into that lifestyle because I was a believer before that happened, but now I can use it as a testimony. God took a situation I screwed up and turned it out for the better. Just how God used your situation and revealed himself to you.

    But in regards to praying for your situation to change, I think I'm pretty sure as to what it was, but this is another thing about faith, and that is your faith cannot override someone else freewill. What I mean by that is your faith cannot force someone to do something against their will. This is the best example I can think of, but there are tons of people who pray for God to save their loved one, and then get frustrated when their loved ones don't come to Christ. The truth in that situation is that God will not forced someone to get saved, despite it being his will for all to come to repentance (2 peter 3:9). Yes, we can pray for a loved ones salvation, but it's still up to them whether they want to change or not. All our prayers can do in help influence a situation like that. The same thing is true with an abusive family member. Our prayers could open up the persons eyes to the situation, or hurt they are causing, but it's up to that person whether they change those ways or not. God will not violate someone's free will. We can pray also for our parents not to get divorced, but God will not force them to stay married.

    "so again I ask the same question yet a different way...where is God's will above our own will in the doctrine you are presenting? or do you really think that our will is always above God's will when we pray in faith as you seem to be saying?"

    I don't believe I'm going over God's will when I pray for something, all I'm doing to coming into agreement with God's word, and what I can believe for. Also, I think I have have answered this question in another post. If not, let me know please. Also thanks for your patience, again. I'm doing my best to get to these questions as quickly as I can :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  15. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I have been studying the schemes of Satan....I mentioned that. In that study (ongoing) one thing that struck me is how God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. Think about that...God led Jesus to be tempted. Throughout scripture we see that God often leads men into places and situations that seem to be terrible at the time but it was His perfect will for the purpose of accomplishing something that He wanted to accomplish.

    Point being...sure God wills all to come to Him, He wants all of us to be HIs children maturing unto righteousness. But sometimes that means that He needs to lead us into places and situations that seem counter productive to that goal. His purpose is to reveal Himself to mankind. If revelation comes through something that we deem uncomely so be it. Consider Isaiah 53:1 Christ was revealed to the world through suffering, death, and revelation. We are to partake in that suffering so that Christ can be revealed in us. It's a hard teaching for many people to grasp but it is a beautiful teaching when we are finally able to internalize it especially when it comes to prayers of faith.
    amen to not overriding a persons will but I don't see how that addresses anything I have said. Please clarify...
    Actually I am both thankful for your responses and impressed. You are the first person that has even tried to answer some of my questions about the topic....as to answering the question I am not sure that you have but let me see if I get you right...instead of praying anything you want in faith believing and that being enough, you are agreeing with some of us here that the prayer of faith must be in accordance with God's will it just isn't coming across that way in our communication...is that a good summary of your stand?
     
  16. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I says what it says. It speaks for itself.
    Yes there is. We have been talking about it here.
    I have commented on the sovereignty of God at length here in this thread vis a vis the opposite idea of "openness" in claiming by faith.
    I have addressed that.

    It isn't so much that Paul was "weak in faith". It is that he asked amiss having personally heard God's Word or decree on the subject.

    Faith comes by hearing and believing and acting on the Word of God. It God's Word says clearly that receiving something is not God's will, you can expect not to receive what you ask for.

    I've addressed this at length before.
    We both agree that God gives His people grace even when they ask something amiss.
     
  17. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    razzelflabben said:

    this makes it sound like you believe that spiritual healing and obedience trumps physical healing and yet the teaching in question does not speak about this as truth.


    I said, "I'm not sure what all you mean by this."

    Obviously it isn't true that you "have no idea how to make it clearer". Your post here is making it a little more clear to me what you meant.
    I not only addressed the question. I have commented on the subject at length to you and to others here in this thread alone.

    God, the author and perfecter of our faith, sees to it that we do not have faith to receive what has been shown in His Word to be against His will. I believe in the total sovereignty of God in all things as well as His predestining all thing which happen in His creation - including prayers and their positive answers and their refusals.

    Read my posts on the subject. I just don't want to nor do I intend to repeat myself for each and every person who trots out a straw man to kick around.
    It's evading nothing. It's part of addressing the questions you have.

    I said I wouldn't repeat myself again and again. But I will this one time at least.

    Paul was told the reason for the thorn (what ever it was). He was told that it was from God and he was told the reason for God's giving it to him.

    It not that he lacked faith - although he may have. He asked amiss - asking for something which God had already said was not His will. We have been assured that such a prayer will not be answered in the affirmative.
    Regarding my comments about predestination, you said the following.
    Read my posts as I have suggested and you will have no trouble knowing how it comes into the question.
    Please read my posts and quit asking the same questions again and again. - which I have answered to you and elsewhere.
    As has mine. So I must ask in all sincerity, what's your problem? Have you even read my posts?
    Of course. And your point to me is what? Did I say something which made you think I would not agree?
    That should always be our attitude. But if God has already spoken on a subject - we already know His will and should prayer accordingly.

    There's nothing wrong with asking if there is any way that a prayer of faith can be granted which will not involve violating His will. Jesus did that.

    But when it becomes clear that God's will is only one way - there is not need to say something different to the mountain and "claim it" expecting it to be done. That's what Jesus did and that's what we should do.

    I hold the same position as you on this concept and I have no idea why you are telling me these things - unless, of course, you simply haven't read my posts.
    Appropriate story.

    You received God's will on the subject and it's good that you didn't keep praying against His will.

    Paul did the same thing. He prayed and prayed and when he was reminded that it was not God's will but something else was he stopped praying.
    He did not lack trust. But He did not have faith that He would be spared the cross. He couldn't have such faith because the Word of God said otherwise. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

    If He had such faith (energized by what the Word expressed), He would have said to the mountain " ". But He said otherwise. He simply bowed His head and accepted exactly what the Word of God said on the matter.

    His prayer was not one of "name it and claim it". It was simply a prayer which expressed the desires of His heart. Those desires were that He be somehow spared the thing to come and that God's will would be done in the matter. He never claimed anything wrongly. He did not ask amiss as did Paul and as do many others.
    Of course I have. How could I be the "student of faith and answered prayer" that I am and not done those things?
    If your study leaves you to attack a person for simply quoting what the Lord said on the subject of "name it and claim it" then you need to study a bit more IMO.

    There is nothing wrong with examining why there seem to be exceptions to what the Lord clearly said. We should do that.

    But if the automatic trotting out of those exceptions leads us to effectively reject the clear teaching of the Lord we have gone astray IMO.

    That's what has happened here. I have simply repeated what the scriptures say.

    Immediately out come the explanations as to why it is wrong to take it literally. Even detailed explanations by me as to how it fits together are ignored and I am lumped together with the bad evangelist of the month by some.

    The Lord will not find faith on the earth so long as people refuse to step out in faith and claim what the scriptures provide for us and even make excuses as to why it is wrong to do so.

    What you seem to be "missing" IMO is a positive affirmation of the promises of the scriptures regarding praying with authority. Positive affirmations have apparently been replaced by automatic concentration on statements as to why we can't pray with authority.
    Faith is the "assurance" of things hoped for and the certainty of things not seen.

    If many here have their way in discussions like this - they will make sure that there is no assurance and certainty at all in prayer. The result will be that the "faith" the Lord so longs for us to have will be lacking.
    I was talking about what I just said. We need to affirm what the scriptures say about praying with authority before we undermine faith by trotting out supposed reasons why we shouldn't pray that way.
    Seeking His kingdom involves laying hold of kingdom authority.

    When God has spoken, we need to step out in faith and speak to the mountains.

    We will never take the kingdom by force by trotting out reasons why it's wrong to speak to mountains.


    P.S.

    I simply can't do any more of these long drawn out discussions.

    If you have a particular question for me as to what I believe and why - please ask one at a time and I will answer short and sweet.

    But please read my posts first. I have addressed many of your concerns already and don't have the time to do it again and again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  18. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Many walk in a office they were never called to. Its written what so ever you desire when you pray..believe you receive it you will have it. Its also written ALL not some but ALL things are possible to who? To him that believes.

    Faith.. 1st the only way to please God.. but.. does FAITH only work ONE way? Hey.. I can give you a HUGE LIST of all the things and negative things some people say..day in day out and RECEIVE just what they had faith for.

    So.. yes can ask and believe for something GOOD and its NOT what GOD wanted. TAKE this with a grain of salt yet this man has never been know to lie. Yet he said at one time he prayed and prayed asked God that HE wanted to SEE Jesus! I mean he really prayed out this. The lord told him.. it will do nothing to help your faith. The man said.. one night.. at the foot of His bed.. the lord did show up. Said.. I am here. The man said... I never turned over .. and Jesus left.

    You can be going to a Church because of friends or you even like the Pastor. But.. its not where GOD wants you. But.. your HIS and your free. So unless we REALLY truly ask from our heart what HE wants.. He wont say a word. He loves you. Like it or not matters not.. people that LOVE GOD are OF GOD can believe and receive ALLOT of things of this world...and STILL be of GOD. And He will say nothing. He came to give you life.

    Faith.. we most of our life LIMIT GOD in what He can do. We look at the early Church as if THAT was how was to be. Yet.. that was the BABY taking a step. Yeah.. we have not see the CHURCH WALK YET...
     
  19. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    It speaks towards Jesus intentions, it does not speak for itself your own intentions. I see nothing in this verse in the way of claiming our own desires, it's not self evident toward your case.

    I have seen your verses purporting to show that we can claim any desire and receive it by faith, however they do not say what you wish them to say. You do not accompany them with explanation but simply posit them. I also think you misuse James 4 by plucking singular verses from it. James is referring to earthly possessions for which a Christian could ask a church member. These Christians are fighting over possessions in Jealousy, that is the context. There is no contextual indication that James is referring to Receiving by faith in prayer.

    I think you misunderstand what I mean by openness. I mean openness as in an absolute statement. To view these "claim it" verses literally creates logical inconsistencies with Gods nature which you do not address but instead wave over to other parts of the thread where you remark to completely different responses instead of my own.

    Paul asked before he received Gods answer. Not after. It does not matter whether his thorn was physical or spiritual because it was asked for by faith but denied by God. It is a hard example to the contrary of receiving whatever we claim by faith. Can you imagine how frightful prayer would be if God granted both our wise and foolish prayers?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  20. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    so apparently I still don't understand what you are saying despite my best efforts to understand but since I am not interested in debate I guess I am just stuck with not understanding since you don't want to explain it any better.
    well actually the text says the thorn was from Satan but all you have to do is read it to see that. As per the rest of it obviously God allowed it for a reason which goes back to a trust God no matter what but that isn't the question on the table. The question on the table is why, if we receive everything we ask for in prayer if we believe why didn't God take the thorn like Paul asked? Did he lack faith? Is your faith greater than Paul's? What would you do in the face of the persecution Paul endured?
    actually he hadn't been told it was against God's will...but then again I asked about God's will trumping our will and you didn't answer the question so I can only assume that you didn't believe that it did since you changed the topic rather than answering.
    please show in the case of Paul where God told him that the thorn was there for his good before he asked for it to be removed...it's all about context.
    so when I asked you if God's will trumps our will why did you refuse to answer and instead changed the topic to things like predestination and claims that are false according to scriputure about Paul?
    you have not shown where Paul asked amiss...
    I haven't attacked anyone I have simply asked for clarification...you are attacking me for trying to understand your position.
    again, nothing at all in response to what I was asking clarification about...not sure why you would bring it up.
    again I have no idea what you are talking about. I asked you if you were saying our will overrides God's when we pray in faith believing or not...nothing more or less.
    wow, so I according to you refuse positive affirmation in scripture because I believe that God's will always trumps our desires even if prayed in faith...now that is just messed up.
    none of this affects what I said or asked clarification of.
    I asked and you refused...I guess we are done.
     
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