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Featured Is faith enough?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by ByTheSpirit, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    Question...what do you think prayer is? Like some people think it is a monologue...some a dialogue...some a place of fellowship...some a wish list...etc. what specifically do you personally think prayer is?
     
  2. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I'm not sure that doesn't just mean to desire to be close enough to God to desire to be that united with Him but I am anxious to see where you take this as per your understanding of prayer and what I just suggested.
     
  3. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    If anyone wants to talk and/or add this interesting aspect to their understanding of the OP question...my study into the schemes of Satan continues with this one from I Thessalonians 2:17-20 where Satan hindered plans.

    I have a couple of initial thoughts but don't want to say until I finish studying it...I welcome any of your thoughts as per the OP question.
     
  4. Theadorus

    Theadorus Active Member Supporter

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    Okay,I see. I was referring to our overall purpose in life. What called us to do before we were even born. I agree, we should desire all the gifts. I desire to operate in many as possible. I'd love to operate in the power, and knowledge gifts. That is my desire. The speaking gifts, I'll warm up to them eventually, but I mostly desire the gifts of healing, and faith, and miracles.
     
  5. Theadorus

    Theadorus Active Member Supporter

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    shoot. Okay, I see that now. Yeah, it will have to be something I meditate, and pray on more.
     
  6. Theadorus

    Theadorus Active Member Supporter

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    Yes, God has already ordered our steps, that's what I'm saying. We walked them out however we feel, but we cannot change the road God puts us on, only the way we go to reach our goal.

    Your story sounds a bit similar to my situation. God called my family and I out here to Colorado 3 year so that I could study under my current ministers. While here we faced hardships and challenges as well, and we watched God come through every time. It's has been an amazing journey, and has really built my wife and I's faith. My purpose for now is to grow in the word, and finish my schooling, but after that, I'm not all too sure what I'll be doing. But I cannot wait to see where God takes us! But I think it's amazing that you stepped out in faith. Not many people are willing to do that, and are scared. I have a family member that is always talking about wanting to be used by God, but in her own self admission she is too scared to step out in faith.
     
  7. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I fear it is all too common for us to be too fearful to live in faith. In fact, fear and faith often go hand in hand in scripture. The way to counter fear is to truly trust God that He wants what is best no matter. Unfortunately when it comes to the "prayer of faith believing" mentality we all too often confuse faith/trust with confident and there miss the wonderment of truly resting in God and His promises....just my two cents.
     
  8. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    John 14 and Psalm 46 are very appropriate passages in this case, for the believer! :)
     
  9. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    Unpleasant things happen to us when we sin. I think obedience needs to be part of the equation.
     
  10. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    We have been talking about faith related praying with authority and having it answered because of that faith.

    "Faith" can also be believing that it can be done. The examples you point to are not of people "speaking with authority in faith" that a certain thing be done for them by God. In fact they are obviously not that at all.

    The example of Christ in the garden is an example of a man simply saying that if there be any other way to accomplish what God wanted accomplished other than what He saw in the scriptures happening He wished it to happen in that alternative manner. After expressing His desire, He bowed His head and left it in the hands of God. This is not a case of a man naming and claiming something in faith at all. It is simply a man of faith communicating His heart's desire to His God. We have been talking about the former.

    Had Jesus prayed with "authority" as in the case of the moving mountain - He would have been praying amiss since He would have already received God's will on the subject. Although I wouldn't presume to a judge of this - it may even have been sin to do so.

    However He did not do that - so it's immaterial. He simply expressed a prayer to God that if there was any other way than the way He saw in scripture and heard from the Holy Spirit He wished for that way to be done.

    Likewise, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not claiming any particular thing in faith. They were simply affirming God's ability to deliver them and expressing their belief that He would do so.

    We can express what we believe God will do in a certain case and so doing is not the same a "saying to the mountain" (speaking with authority for something to be done).

    Descriptive passages concerning events are not to be taken as anything more than that - descriptions of events. Prescriptive passages are to be taken for what they are - prescriptions of how to do things.

    If we have a descriptive passage which serves as an example of a prescription for action - we certainly can refer to it for help in seeing clearly how a prescription can be brought to bear on life's issues at times.

    The passage having to do with the uprooting of a mountain is neither. It is simply a statement of fact - a fact we should believe because it is told to us by our Lord.

    Since we have other prescriptive passages concerning how to pray - we can perhaps bring the fact stated in the mountain passage to bear on that prescription as appropriate.

    I guess I don't see where the centurion doubted that it would be done for him as he requested and believed. Nor do I see where he "named and claimed" anything either. In fact he didn't even pray for anything.

    He simply stated that he had a sick servant and stated the facts concerning His personal trust in the ability of Jesus to heal. Jesus then commented on his faith in the Messiah's ability.

    Like the fiery furnace passage before it - there is simply no prayer mentioned. Nor is there a request made. There is a simple affirmation by the involved people as to their faith that God was able to do mighty things.

    Whether God looked at the general faith in Him held by the children of Israel in the furnace passage and rewarded that faith in Him as a good and powerful God with delivery from the furnace or if He would have done it in any case isn't information supplied for us.

    These are descriptive passages. But if we can glean learning from them, then we should. But we should not try to glean more than is there lest we go beyond what is written.
    Ok - so my trying to help explain my theology in detail as you asked me to do amounts to rabbit trails and your examples (which aren't even prayer of the kind we are discussing) are not rabbit trails - according to you.

    If you want ultra simple quips about my belief I can provide them easily with statements from scripture like the following.

    "Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." Ps.37:4
    "You do not have because you do not ask." James 4:2
    Hebrews 11:6
    And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
    Mark 6:5-6
    And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.
    James 5:16-18
    Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
    Ephesians 3:12
    in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
    Hebrews 10:22
    Verse Concepts
    let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
    Matthew 21:21-22
    And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
    Mark 11:22-24
    And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God. "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
    James 1:5-8
    But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, read more.
    James 5:14-15
    Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
    Matthew 9:27-30
    As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, "Have mercy on us, Son of David!" When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord." Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith." read more.
    Matthew 8:5-13
    And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him." read more.
    Luke 7:1-10
    When He had completed all His discourse in the hearing of the people, He went to Capernaum. And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders asking Him to come and save the life of his slave. read more.
    Matthew 9:20-22
    And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak; for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well." But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
    Mark 5:25-34
    A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years, and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse-- after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak. read more.
    Luke 8:43-48
    And a woman who had a hemorrhage for twelve years, and could not be healed by anyone, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak, and immediately her hemorrhage stopped. And Jesus said, "Who is the one who touched Me?" And while they were all denying it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing in on You." read more.
    Matthew 15:21-28
    Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." read more.
    Mark 7:24-30
    Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. read more.
    1 Kings 18:36-37
    At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word. "Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again."
    James 5:17-18
    Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
    1 Kings 17:19-22
    He said to her, "Give me your son." Then he took him from her bosom and carried him up to the upper room where he was living, and laid him on his own bed. He called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, have You also brought calamity to the widow with whom I am staying, by causing her son to die?" Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray You, let this child's life return to him." read more.
    2 Kings 4:32-35 When Elisha came into the house, behold the lad was dead and laid on his bed. So he entered and shut the door behind them both and prayed to the LORD. And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth and his eyes on his eyes and his hands on his hands, and he stretched himself on him; and the flesh of the child became warm.

    There are many other of course but I don't want to burden you and I certainly wouldn't want to drag you down any rabbit trails with my explanations about how they work into my theology.
    "So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17

    Heb 12:2 says "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith". Heb. 12:2

    " ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.” Rom 12:3T

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Eph. 2:8

    I don't recall saying that God takes faith away.

    There you go. You can now post away without anyone giving you explanations which burden you to try and follow.

    I have apologized to you for lumping your posts in with someone else and for any rudeness on my part. I have done my best to get us on a good track in spite of any misunderstandings I may have had.

    I have endeavored to tell you what I believe, given you the scriptures I use to back it up, explained how those scriptures do not violate other scriptures when I take them so literally and on and on it goes.

    But I don't believe you are really interested in what I believe and why I believe it.

    You ask me what I believe and when I tell you what I believe you follow up with asking me to explain how that works in my theology. When I try to explain it you don't like the rabbit trails I take you down.
    Maybe something I have said or quoted will give you more information to add to your 1000 passages of scripture and you can put it into one of your long spiritual books.

    I will end now because I don't want to take you beyond your oh so spiritual 40 hours of study a week.

    Have fun talking with yourself and patting yourself on your spiritual back. I'll leave you to it now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  11. Aseyesee

    Aseyesee Well-Known Member

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    That is as variable of a question as where everyone is at in their walk at any given time.

    The purpose of God is in himself, which is the singleness we loose sight of.

    The narrowing down to one is the measuring of the purpose of God; one who finds no truth outside of himself.
     
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    I objected to using ministry as a prayer item. Everybody ministers, some with a pslam, another with an interpretation, but all with gifts that authenticate the call to come out of Egypt into the Promised Land (edification).

    Prayer is asking for daily bread, gifts that authenticate God's message, convince people to turn from serving Mammon/the world/Egypt to serving God. If it's prayer that makes it possible to receive the gifts, then it is not us swaying people but God who feeds with manna from Heaven!
     
  13. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    but they did "pray" in faith believing and even Christ spoke of the great faith. So maybe when we try to answer the OP question we need to define what faith is?! If we look at the story of the centurion it seems to me that faith is trusting that the answer given is according to God's perfect will that wants the best for us at all times. Remember this is the account in which Christ Himself said that He had not seen so great a faith in all of Israel.

    So, given that I report the meaning from an actual scriptural account where do you get the idea that faith is believing it is done and not that it is trust that God's answer is for our good and is the perfect answer for the situation. No questions asked, the word of God is solid and good.?
    And so the real prayer of faith as we see in all the examples given is a prayer that accepts God's will as an answer...no matter what that answer is. That would mean that the prayer of faith is a trusting acceptance of God's perfect will as expressed in that prayer.

    So, let's apply that to what you have said...you said that you believe that a prayer of faith is one that is praying God's will. What I would like to suggest to you is that the prayer of faith is one that accepts not just prays God's will over our own. If "I" don't accept the answer God gives it is not a prayer of faith. IOW's I submit to you that the prayer of faith doesn't just pray God's will but that the prayer of faith is so trusting of God as to accept God's answer on the matter even if "I" got the will of God wrong.

    Quick story....I have health issues that are debilitating. I have prayed about this many times as Paul prayed for the suffering that he endured with the thorn. Others too have prayed and the afflictions still persist. All of us have prayed in faith believing....you know what God said to me? He said two things, 1. trust ME and 2. for MY glory. What I discovered after all of this is that God is using my health issues for the tasks He has created me for. IOW's I am able because of the health issues to do "works" that I wouldn't be able to do without the health issues. Works that encourage the body of believers to grow unto maturity and testify to unbelievers about the truth of Christ. All to the glory of God according to His perfect will. Do I wish the illness leave? Of course but I would rather endure it to God's glory than to have a lesser gift from God that leaves His will on the sideline. Faith is trust that God's answer is secure. See, I'm suggesting to you that the prayer of authority isn't just calling for what we want without doubt but calling for God's will to trump our own even if it means that we are challenged to change our hearts desire and grow in our understanding and trust of God's promises to always be on our side and give us only good gifts. Sometimes our idea of what is good is warped by what the world tells us is good.
    Actually He prayed with authority that God's will would trump His own will and that is exactly what God did. Thus an example of a prayer of real faith being answered. I think the core of the problem is two fold...just my opinion...1. we have no real understanding of what faith and prayers of faith are and 2. we don't understand the promises of God. We as a general term not specifically you and I or everyone on this thread.
    but He said more in His prayer...remember? He prayed not His will but God's be done. That is a prayer of faith authority.
    what I am suggesting to you is that when we take into account all of scripture what we see is that the prayer of faith is one that asks for God's will over our own and in that finds rest and peace and joy like the world cannot understand.
    I can say to the mountain move and still have a heart that says, "nevertheless not my will but Thine be done." ;)
    no contest but if you think that Christ did not pray in faith believing I will challenge you every single time and if you think that God wants us to pray in faith then dismiss prayers of greats as examples of how to do just that, I will challenge you as well. We have prayers as examples for a reason....we should use them accordingly.
    Let me tell you this....If I need a mountain to move so that I can carry the good news of Christ to a people that God wants me to carry it to, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that God will move that mountain as soon as I speak the words, in fact, I would call the media to watch so that others would believe as well. But what would it serve to have a mountain move for no other reason than that I want to show the power of God in me? See, way too many people get this all wrong. From the biblical perspective our hearts and minds should be on serving God and nothing else. It's a spiritual perspective not a worldly one. Thus for the "prayer of faith" to be productive it needs to have a spiritual purpose not a worldly one. If receiving a puppy is going to bring about a spiritual truth then the puppy will be mine no questions asked. But if that puppy only provides a physical purpose then it is not in the realm of absolute because our perspective is wrong. Now I know that you have talked about perspective some but I still think you are missing perspective here. I honestly believe that every prayer of faith begins by asking what spiritual purpose this thing will serve. We see this in the example of Christ. There was a spiritual purpose, a "greater" than these miracle that God wanted to reveal and because of that, all believers can walk into the "good works" God has planned for us without fear that anything will stand in our way.

    Another quick story....some years ago our church hired an associate pastor (long story so just accept the parts I give you as they are given) the man they hired was not qualified according to scripture and that has now been confessed by some. Anyway, the man was very prideful and arrogant and he was so obsessed with the thought of losing his job that he did some horribly unethical things to try to keep it. His purpose acquired the job but he couldn't rest in simple trust of that because it wasn't God's will and purpose that acquired the job for him but rather his manipulation and control.

    In the OP question we are asked about a calling into ministry. The prayer of faith allows us to rest in confidence that nothing will stand in our way if God's purpose is being fulfilled. If I receive what I asked for what benefit is it if I am so obsessed with it that I forget to serve God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength?
    He asked and that very question assumes that it could go either way...it's simply a matter of reading for comprehension. And what is prayer if not talking to God (Christ)?
    If is a word that tells us that he understood that the answer might be no....comprehension rules.
    okay, this has come up a couple of times so let's try this again...what exactly do you think prayer is if not talking to God? By the way they also said that if God didn't deliver them they would still believe. IOW"s accepting both possibles.
    what is supplied is that they had faith no matter what God decided...which is what I am suggesting to you is a true prayer of faith.
    come on...I didn't ask you to explain your entire theology I understand most of what you have said....I asked you specific questions that were not clear and instead of answering you go down all these rabbit trails then accuse me of long posts. This post is unnecessarily long based on the clarification I asked you about your theology but you don't see that for some strange reason.
    none of this clarifies what you have said....in fact, it clouds the issue more since we both hold fast to scripture but that does nothing to tell me how you are interpreting the scripture or what you might see that I don't and what I see you don't...
    but when I asked you about why one prayer of say healing is given and the next isn't you said it was about faith which would make faith a sliding scale so I asked for clarification from you and you gave everything but an answer to the question asked. I even accepted that you might have misunderstood the question so I clarified and you instead of answering the question post this post which still doesn't answer the question. So again I have no idea what you believe about the sliding scale of faith that you seem to promote. Clarification means that you explain your position in a way that reconciles what you said with what you believe. That is what I asked you for. I didn't ask you for all the other stuff you tried to put into this post. Your lack of willingness to clarify makes me wonder what you are trying to hide?
    If I wasn't interested in what you believe why would I ask you to clarify the parts of your belief I don't understand? See, this post is still doing the reading into my posts that you previously apologized for. So what is it when you confess wrongdoing but faith to repent as you are doing here? Repent meaning turn from...
    where in this post do you explain how our faith does not come and go but our faith is why we see miracles so when I pray for healing and it happens then pray again and it doesn't happen, both prayers of faith that that isn't a sliding scale of faith...? That is the only question posse to you in this post and you have given me everything but that answer. If you don't want to answer questions of clarification or you simply can't answer that is okay but trying to take me off task isn't going to go nearly as well for you as you might think.
    wow...all because I asked you to clarify something you said...sad, very sad...
     
  14. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I'm confused by this comment as per my comment in context...it sounds here like you don't think we should pray about and for the ministry God has given us....is that really what I am suppose to believe you are saying in context of the comment you quoted?
    I guess this is someplace you and I differ. When I studied prayer what I found is that prayer is a place of fellowship. It can and does and should include requests and intercessions, etc. but prayer itself is a place of fellowship which is why we are told that we can and should pray without ceasing...thanks for that clarification.
     
  15. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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  16. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    Here is another great passage on this topic....
    Daniel 4:35
    "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'
     
  17. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    As I finish my study of I Thessalonians 2:17-20 what I have come to understand and I think this applies to the topic at hand. Sometimes we receive things that are not because of our prayers or despite our prayers. It's how the world works and sometimes within the plans of Satan to try to draw us away from God. Therefore not every answer to prayer can be assumed to be God's word. Think here of those who in a moment of panic promise God something and it happens. That does not mean it was God doing it what it means is that the thing they hoped for took place.

    What we can know and rest in is that God's will and promises are guarantees without worry and that those things He knows we need are already given because that is simply the kind of Father He is.

    Praying believing is an important aspect of our relationship with God and should not be taken lightly but we also need to temper that truth with the rest of scripture. We do have a will, God did set things in motion, Satan does rule this world, etc. but within that, we should never doubt that God not only is but that His promises are truth without some formula or manipulation or even prayers of authority...rather God's promises are absolute and His will will not be overridden and so if a prayer is not answered as we ask we need to examine ourselves to see if we asked amiss or if God has something better for us than what we can understand and if we are willing to rest in His promise that He has something better for us.
     
  18. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    You have to understand that the way to be a blessing to the world, the promise made to Abraham, is to minister to it. No one has a choice to make, it's a given. In other words, you can't pray to be a minister, as a career choice, you ARE a minister.

    So ministers need tasks to do, just as servants are assigned different responsibilities, some to cook, some to drive, etc. That's why Paul says some have tongues, some interpretation: the point is that all these are ways of serving.

    If a cook doesn't have ingredients, what can they bring to the table?

    That's why Jesus taught we should pray for daily bread: to bring to the table. Everyday.
     
  19. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I understand all of that...not sure why you think I don't but cool. Even you talk here about praying about our ministry's as in praying for our daily bread...so I still don't know what your point is.
     
  20. Aseyesee

    Aseyesee Well-Known Member

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    To be a son is the truth of who we are, to walk it out, the epistle, gospel, or a law of life we are.
     
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