Is faith enough?

[Marvin Knox]

It speaks towards Jesus intentions, it does not speak for itself your own intentions. I see nothing in this verse in the way of claiming our own desires, it's not self evident toward your case.

"And Jesus *answered saying to them, “Have faith in God. Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you."

It says what it says. I didn't write it. If you want to see something different than it says - go ahead on.

I have seen your verses purporting to show that we can claim any desire and receive it by faith, however they do not say what you wish them to say. You do not accompany them with explanation but simply posit them.

I have never said that you can claim any desire and receive it by faith. There are reasons why you do not receive them and I have referred to them here.

There is no explanation required as to what it teaches. There are only explanations as to why we don't get a positive answer sometimes. My only appeal is that we first affirm what it says and teaches and then look at the exceptions. I have been consistent about that.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by openness. I mean openness as in an absolute statement. To view these "claim it" verses literally creates logical inconsistencies with Gods nature which you do not address

I have addressed the nature of God related to this subject - even more than most have.

There are no logical inconsistencies with God's nature which develop from taking them literally. That is particularly true as I have shown concerning God's sovereignty in all things and in answered and unanswered prayer in particular.

Paul asked before he received Gods answer. Not after. It does not matter whether his thorn was physical or spiritual because it was asked for by faith but denied by God. It is a hard example to the contrary of receiving whatever we claim by faith. Can you imagine how frightful prayer would be if God granted both our wise and foolish prayers?

We know nothing about Paul's faith in the matter. We simply know that he asked several times.

It was explained why he could not have the answer he sought.

He received God's Word on the matter and he, appropriately, apparently stopped asking.

If we have received God's word on a matter we should not ask or continue to ask either.

I have already addressed the fact that God is the author and perfecter of our faith.

No one will ask in faith for something which is not God's will. He may ask but it will not be in faith. The reason is that faith is assurance and certainty which is based on God's Word.

God has both promised certain things which we can ask and claim with authority. If He has promised them, they are His will. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

There will be no faith concerning things not promised by God or about which He has stated His lack of will concerning.

No doubt your extreme concern for people asking in faith for things which are not God's will is because you don't believe in the sovereignty of God related to our faith.

Since you reject God's authorship and sovereignty concerning how our faith plays out - and don't understand what I am telling you because of it - it is because the scriptures are IMO fulfilled in you and I when they say,

"Whoever has , more will be given to him and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away."

I have no trouble what so ever believing what God says about faithful prayer always being granted. You do. The reason for our difference is obvious.

You don't understand God's sovereignty concerning faith and that it is God who prepares good things which we should walk in (like successful prayer).

 

[Marvin Knox]

I asked and you refused...I guess we are done.

I have answered all questions forthrightly.

I just refuse to repeat myself over and over again as a bulwark against straw man charges concerning what my teaching is and isn't concerning faith.

There is nothing in my belief which undermines the authority of God in answered prayer.

I have explained my belief in the sovereignty of God related to our faith and answered prayer and why it negates any concerns what so ever that anyone can ask in faith for anything out of God's will.

That belief being in place in my understanding, even if missing in yours - I don't have any concern with taking Jesus' words exactly as He said them.

"Whatever you ask for, believing, it will be done for you by My Father in Heaven."

Someone is simply not going to have the faith that Mr. Everest will be uprooted and thrown with great force into New York harbor drowning millions of innocent people.

You may think that people can drum up that kind of faith out of their own selves. You may think that they will use it for evil if you fail to "sound the warning" about not taking Jesus' word literally.

I don't. I have thought long and hard about God's providential involvement in all that happens in His creation and about faith in general.

My beliefs are and always will be based on scripture.

Concerning my thoughts on any particular subject (like the one being discussed) they are also a systematic amalgamation of various doctrines which play off one another.

That doesn't guarantee that I am always correct. But I will say quite confidently that some of the people on this thread would be wiser to ask for information about what i believe and why I believe it rather than attack me because I dare to quote the words of our Lord.

 

[Wordkeeper]

God gave signs and wonders (answered prayer) to His apostles to authenticate His message that His will was for His sheep to leave Egypt/Mammon/the world.

He didn't want them to use prayer to demonstrate gratuitous displays of power, and Jesus refused to demonstrate gratuitous displays of power to Satan who urged Him to leap of a high building. Unlike Israel who tried to use signs and wonders to venture out to fight the enemy without knowing that each use had to be to authenticate God's message.

If Rahab had seen Israel win without God, she would have worshipped Israel and not God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

God used signs and wonders (manna) to authenticate His message that His will was that His sheep should leave depending on Egypt for life, should begin to serve Him for Eternal Life, by entering His Rest.


Anybody can manifest signs and wonders. What makes these signs and wonders the mark of a true apostle is the MESSAGE: Leave Egypt, enter Rest.

That is why Jesus did not stop even those who were not His disciples from driving out demons. He knew they could eventually become disciples: apostles who said good things about the Rest:

Mark 9:38
38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.

If they did not, they became “law breakers”:

Matthew 7:21-23
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord! ’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,ab but only the one who does thewillac of My Father in heaven.ad 22On thatday many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demonsae in Your name, and domany miracles in Your name? ’af 23Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

I'm doing a sign and wonder by opening up Scripture, giving “daily bread”. To authenticate the message, say good things about Rest, the kingdom of God. It's here! That's the Gospel!

Luke 11:22
22But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

People of this age are so fortunate. They have received the real Promised Land, unlike the Old Testament saints:

Hebrews 11:8-16
8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

 

[Theadorus]

but then again I asked about God's will trumping our will

I asked you if you were saying our will overrides God's when we pray in faith believing or not

“But isn't Christ's prayer in the garden the perfect picture of a prayer of faith believing? It is about our wills lining up with God's will no matter what our flesh desires?”


Okay, I think I finally understand (cross fingers). So you are asking if our prayer of faith can trump God’s will for our life. As in if God has something planned for us, or for our life, but we want to use our faith to change it, can we? You site Paul because he wanted the throne (persecution) to be removed, but you believe it was God’s will for him to go through what he did so that he wouldn’t become prideful. So you believe that what ended up happening with Paul was that God’s will over threw Paul prayer of faith? I hope I’m finally understanding that question because for some reason I had a hard time wrapping my head around it.


I hope this answers it. But I believe that God has willed, and called each of us for something very specific within our lives. God has a good, and perfect will for each and every one of our lives, something he pre-planned before we were even born. Now, for the sake of an example, lets say that my overall calling was to work the rest of my life as Janitor, but I saw this as a dead end position, and so I wanted to circus performer instead because I saw that as a more fulfilling position. Now, I’m 100% sure that being a janitor is what God called me to be, but I don’t like that Idea, so I’m going to use my faith to change my calling, and God’s perfect plan for me. So, can I do that, can I use my faith to trump God’s plan for me? My answer to that is: No. A person cannot use their faith to change things around as they see fit (I’m just speaking in regards to someone’s overall calling). And like you put it, my faith will not be able to trump God’s will for my life.

Now here is the tricky part. Even though I cannot use my faith to force my will above Gods (again, I’m just talking about our overall calling in life), I can still use my freewill to go against God’s will anyways. Does that make sense? For example, God’s will for my life (I’m talking about me now) is to be in the 5 fold Ministry, but, it’s up to me whether I go along with his plan or not. Now even though I cannot use my faith change his will for my life, I can still use my freewill to be whatever the heck I want to be in life. We see this scenario played out in a lot of people's lives. They want one thing, but God has another thing in mind. They tell God how they want to live their lives, and all he's is thinking is, "I have something better, something you'll love." They then try to force what they want into existence. They will command things to work out, or they will use their faith to further themselves along, but what they don't realize is that they are trying to force something that wasn't supposed to happen in the first place.

For example, God calls me to Cananda, and I build and grow a very successful church that touches 10s of thousands of lives. But I'm sick of the harsh winters, and want to move base to Hawaii where it's nice and warm. And because I had so much success in Canada, why wouldn't I experience the same success in Hawaii as well? So I boldly tell God I want set up shop in Hawaii, then believe it and receive it, and make my move. Well, the reason I wouldn't be successful is because God didn't call me to Hawaii, and unless he tells me to setup base in Hawaii, chances are my Church may fail, or I'll just have very little success there. Will God still use me? Yes, God can still use me, as long as I'm willing to obey. Can God make the best out of the situation I just created? Of course he can, God is merciful, and forgiving.

No matter what the thorn was, Paul asked for it to be removed...did he lack faith the reason that it was not removed as per his asking in faith believing? That is the question.

The question on the table is why, if we receive everything we ask for in prayer if we believe why didn't God take the thorn like Paul asked?

Now, I don’t believe it is ever God’s will for us to suffer. I don’t believe it’s ever God’s will to put us in a terrible situation because he needs us to go through it. Like in the example of Paul, I don’t believe it was God’s will for him to suffer. I do not believe It was God’s will for Paul to have that throne in order to stop him for becoming prideful. So why didn’t God remove the throne (persecution) then? Did he lack faith? Did he not believe hard enough?


This is my belief, but he Lord didn’t remove Paul’s thorn because Jesus didn’t redeem believers from persecution. If Paul’s thorn had been sickness or poverty, then he could have prayed and received the answer to that prayer. But with persecution, the Lord doesn’t deliver believers; He strengthens them to be able to bear all things, thereby bringing glory to Himself and bringing conviction to their persecutors. Now, Paul’s thorn in the flesh was persecution that came from the devil, to make people think twice about accepting the Gospel, because of the persecution that accompanied it. Again, the reason God didn’t take Paul’s thorn away was not because He wanted to afflict Paul, but it was because believers are not redeemed from persecution. Paul later stated this in 2 Timothy 3:12: “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” If the Lord stopped all persecution against His followers, Saul would have died before he became the Apostle Paul because Paul was one of the leaders of the persecution against Christians. The Lord didn’t redeem Stephen from persecution but turned that bad situation around, and used it to glorify Himself and prick the heart of the future Apostle Paul. Plus, Jesus loves those who persecute us just as He loved those who persecuted Him (Luke 23:34). He wants the persecutors to be saved just as much as we are, but they can't get saved if he wiped them all out.

interesting story...I have had several people tell me that when I pray for them it was the first time they ever felt "power" when someone prayed for them. Some of them were healed immediately some not...some never healed to this day. But they felt power none the less according to their testimony.

Praise God, that’s so awesome (them getting healed and feeling the power of God)!

As best I can tell you and I are not so far from one another except in what you consider promises of God and God's will over ours...as in He wants wants trumps what we want...iow's I believe that God's promises are guaranteed but I don't think we always understand the promise because we are trying to see it through the eyes of the flesh rather than the eyes of the spirit.

Yes, you and I have the similar beliefs, but I believe we may see God's promises and will a bit differently. I do agree that God's promises are guaranteed as well, and I do believe that many people misunderstand them.

amen to not overriding a persons will but I don't see how that addresses anything I have said. Please clarify...

I said all of that to hopefully answer a question as to why we don’t see some prayers answered. You mentioned you were 6 and were in a very terrible situation, even to the point of suicide. So I assumed that in the situation you were in, someone was doing something to you that was pushing you to the point of suicide. So therefore, you may have been asking God to either stop the situation, or make the person causing the situation stop. That’s why I made that comment. If I’m wrong in my assessment, I’m sorry. But I guess this could help someone else searching for an answer.

instead of praying anything you want in faith believing and that being enough, you are agreeing with some of us here that the prayer of faith must be in accordance with God's will? it just isn't coming across that way in our communication...is that a good summary of your stand?

I do agree that we must pray according to God's will.

Okay this helps my understanding some, thanks...so two questions...1. are you talking only the atonement or the atonement and promises and 2. if promises are included, where do we find the promises we are suppose to be trusting in? For example and this is just an example not a I agree or disagree... Isaiah 53 talks about by his stripes we are healed but in context of the passage it is talking about spiritual healing not physical...thus we cannot use it as a promise for physical healing (again that is not to say there isn't a promise for physical healing that would be another discussion)

I'm speaking of both. There isn't a straight up list (which would be amazing), but we find them scattered throughout the word. Yes, understand the context of the verse is important because otherwise you can make the Bible say what ever you want. For example, I jokingly say to my wife that Paul commands women to be quiet. I am obviously taking that verse waaaaay out of context.

For example, the famous Proverbs 3:5-6, This is a promise that if we don't learn on our own wisdom and understanding, but rather, trust in God to guide us, and direct us in life, that he will give us a clear and straight path. Because when we do try things our way, we mess stuff us, and our path becomes like the letter S, and we go through unnecessary hardships.

Another example is, Psalms 91, which tell us that if we love God, put our trust in the Lord, and trust him to be our protector, and acknowledge him as our protector, that he will protect us. That he will put his Angels in charge over us. This isn't a promise that no trouble will come our way, but it's a promise that as long as we trust in him, we won't have to fear the evils that come our way.

A final example I will use is Mark 16:18, where Jesus promises me that If I lay hand on the sick, that they Shall recover. Which speaks on the authority he has given, and promised me. I can use this promise to pray for my wife and kids, knowing they will see their healing.



Alright my Brother, I hope this helps bring some clarification. Good night and God Bless

 

[Sanoy]

"And Jesus *answered saying to them, “Have faith in God. Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you."

It says what it says. I didn't write it. If you want to see something different than it says - go ahead on.

What it doesn't say is that we can claim our desires because we have faith that what we command will come into being. God has that power, He used it to create the world, we do not. I don't think Jesus was speaking literally here, because the fig tree was not literal. Why do you suppose Jesus cursed a fig tree for not baring fruit when it wasn't the season for fruit? Because it was Israel and he was placing the curse upon it that Paul spoke of when he said Israels heart is partially hardened. This took place just before Israel would seek to have him crucified. So if the Fig tree represents Israel then the mountain also represents something, Rome? or it's future like. Matthew uses the language of "what has been done" to the fig tree as if more was done that simply a withered tree. More was done as we see in the hardening of Israel. All this is missed when the verse is plucked out of it's context.

I have never seen you address the statements I have made. In every case you wave off to things you have said to others who made different objections than I.

Do you think it is logically consistent with Gods nature to throw a mountain into the sea, which will destroy every surrounding village, and coastal town because a faith filled Christian stubs his toe on a rock and curses the mountain? The only way God remains logically consistent with His nature is if he refuses that prayer.

We don't need to know about Pauls "faith power". All we need to know is that God refused it entirely. He didn't ask Paul to raise his "faith power" He told Paul He would not receive it. I have heard your explanation for why, but your explanation does not remove the fact that this is a direct contradiction to your teaching that we can claim our desires if we have enough faith. Additionally, Paul asked before he received Gods reply, not after.

According to the verses you quote, to which you provide no explanation, you see faith as believing that it will occur. So when you say it can be rejected if it's not in Gods will you add a new element to this "faith power" system. Where is this rejection by God in Mark 11? As you say Mark 11 speaks for itself but there is no mention of this new element of "No one will ask in faith for something which is not God's will". It's not even a true statement but manifestly false. People ask God for terrible stuff on a daily basis and they believe it will happen just like their prosperity pastor told them it would.

I understand God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is how you derive the teaching that whatever we claim, not even in the name of Jesus (Mark 11), will be done for us if we have enough "faith power".


"Whoever has , more will be given to him and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away."
I have never in my life considered this as a verse for gaining material possessions. These were Gods investments in us to which we were to draw an increase upon via adding to the kingdom. The rich man IS the man that buried the talents. It is the man that gave up his wealth that invested it.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have answered all questions forthrightly.

I just refuse to repeat myself over and over again as a bulwark against straw man charges concerning what my teaching is and isn't concerning faith.

wow do you have me wrong...I wonder if you asked God in faith believing for wisdom in this discussion so that I could better understand what you believe and why? If not, you should since wisdom is a promise from God when we ask and you seem to either not have asked or lack enough faith to receive.

I simply see your posts as going back and forth on the issue in question. In one post you seem to be saying that God's will always trumps our will and then you turn around and seem to be saying that God's will doesn't matter to the prayer of faith. So I asked you to clarify and I get all kinds of stuff about predestination, Paul's thorn, Christ's lack of faith and all kinds of other stuff so you can boast (which is sinful btw) about having answered a question you have not yet answered. It's a simple question...Does God's will always trump the prayer in faith believing? Yes or no...we can do this old school way and ask you to circle one or it would be easier to make red the one you choose. It's pretty much so the only thing I am not yet clear on about what you have said and that is because you seem to be going back and forth which is why I asked for clarification.

There is nothing in my belief which undermines the authority of God in answered prayer.

I was in a discussion once about God answering prayer and I said that I believe God has more to say to us than YES, NO, or WAIT...I was reported for saying that and warned that it was inflammatory to claim such a thing....point being, I am not asking you anything about the authority of God in answering prayer I assume that if we are praying to God He has the authority to answer...what I am asking is that if you believe that God's will not His authority trumps our will when we pray in faith believing? See, this is what I am having a problem with. I ask a simple question of clarification and you change the topic to God's authority rather than simply answering the question then boast that you answered and won't repeat yourself.

I have explained my belief in the sovereignty of God related to our faith and answered prayer and why it negates any concerns what so ever that anyone can ask in faith for anything out of God's will.

people pray covetous prayers all the time and do so with confidence that God will answer. In fact, when we actually study Paul's thorn in the flesh that is what we see. The problem was that God's will trumped Paul's desires. The account indicated he fully expected God to remove the thorn....but I guess you have to study it to see that...so back to task...God's authority is not what I am asking you about. I am asking you about God's will not His authority.

That belief being in place in my understanding, even if missing in yours - I don't have any concern with taking Jesus' words exactly as He said them.

"Whatever you ask for, believing, it will be done for you by My Father in Heaven."

again I have no understanding for why you keep bringing this up. This isn't where you and I disagree and I'm not sure if we disagree on God's will because you won't answer the question. Where you and I disagree on the passage here is in what God's promises are....something that can only be found with a careful study of the word and rightly dividing it for truth. Otherwise we pretty much agree...but I still am not sure about God's will over the "prayer in faith believing" because instead of answering the question you talk about God's authority and taking scripture at it's word. As I study the passage it says to me that God's will is over our prayer without doubt because it is the prayers in His name that are answered not the one's we pray in our name but tack on "in Jesus name" to make it sound right and just.

Someone is simply not going to have the faith that Mr. Everest will be uprooted and thrown with great force into New York harbor drowning millions of innocent people.

Personally I have no doubt that it would happen at all if it was within God's will but that goes back to the question I have asked you and you apparently don't want to answer.

You may think that people can drum up that kind of faith out of their own selves. You may think that they will use it for evil if you fail to "sound the warning" about not taking Jesus' word literally.

why would you even bring this up when I believe without doubt it would happen? You go off on me for things that are simply false accusations of me because I asked you a simple question of clarification that at this point I am convinced you won't ever answer which is sad indeed.

I don't. I have thought long and hard about God's providential involvement in all that happens in His creation and about faith in general.

My beliefs are and always will be based on scripture.

bravo! so why refuse to answer the question then as per what scripture says on the matter?

Concerning my thoughts on any particular subject (like the one being discussed) they are also a systematic amalgamation of various doctrines which play off one another.

That doesn't guarantee that I am always correct. But I will say quite confidently that some of the people on this thread would be wiser to ask for information about what i believe and why I believe it rather than attack me because I dare to quote the words of our Lord.

That is exactly what I have been doing...asking you what you believe and why when it comes to the issue of God's will over our will even when we pray in faith believing...and instead of answering the question you change the topic and attack me...so why ask for someone to ask you what you beleive and why when someone does and all you do is avoid the question and attack the one asking to understand your pov?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't think Jesus was speaking literally here, because the fig tree was not literal.

While I fully agree with the spiritual analogy of the fig tree vs. Israel --- Of course it was a real fig tree. It was a miracle and everyone saw it and Jesus was asked about it how the miracle happened.
"Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, “How did the fig tree wither all at once?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree...."

Jesus gave them a lesson on faith and it's possibilities. It's that simple.

If you can arbitrarily say that the fig tree was not a literal miracle, just because it had spiritual application as well - well then, all bets are off and you can believe pretty much whatever you want to and the scriptures won't be able to convince you otherwise.

All this is missed when the verse is plucked out of it's context.

The verse is one of a package of scriptures which teach on answered prayer and it's relationship to faith.

I have never seen you address the statements I have made. In every case you wave off to things you have said to others who made different objections than I.

That simply isn't true. I have addressed your statements and I just did it again.

Do you think it is logically consistent with Gods nature to throw a mountain into the sea, which will destroy every surrounding village, and coastal town because a faith filled Christian stubs his toe on a rock and curses the mountain? The only way God remains logically consistent with His nature is if he refuses that prayer.

I'm not going to look back through every post I've made here even though there aren't that many.

I have already addressed red herrings such as this one. In fact one of my analogies concerning New York harbor was remarkable similar when I used it to say pretty much the same thing.

In fact I also remarked on the faith of men and it's relationship to the providential sovereignty of God in every event which happens in His creation. And, if I do say so myself, I covered the subject better than you did.

Please read my posts and you won't have to assume anything about my beliefs and lack of beliefs.

We don't need to know about Pauls "faith power". All we need to know is that God refused it entirely. He didn't ask Paul to raise his "faith power" He told Paul He would not receive it.

Then why do you people keep bringing his case up as an example?

I have said nothing about Paul's "faith power" or his ability to "raise it". In fact I have said that we know nothing about it. All we know is that he asked amiss because it was a prayer, the answer of which, would have gone against God's expressed will.

I have said that the faith of a child of God is authored and perfected by the providential involvements of God rather than simply "drummed up" as is charged that I believe in. I have said nothing to warrant any criticism about such things. You must be projecting me into the televangelist crowd without warrant.

I have heard your explanation for why, but your explanation does not remove the fact that this is a direct contradiction to your teaching that we can claim our desires if we have enough faith.

Let's get one thing straight here. It is not my teaching. It is the Lord's teaching and he and the Holy Spirit reiterate it many times in other N.T. verses.

Additionally, Paul asked before he received Gods reply, not after.

You don't know that and I don't know that. Don't go beyond what is written.

According to the verses you quote, to which you provide no explanation, you see faith as believing that it will occur. So when you say it can be rejected if it's not in Gods will you add a new element to this "faith power" system. Where is this rejection by God in Mark 11? As you say Mark 11 speaks for itself but there is no mention.....

I don't need an explanation. Jesus said it and I let it stand.

Any "new elements" were to be added as the Spirit of Christ wrote the rest of the N.T.

I have never used the term "faith power". I have simply quoted scripture.

.... no mention of this new element of "No one will ask in faith for something which is not God's will". It's not even a true statement but manifestly false. People ask God for terrible stuff on a daily basis and they believe it will happen just like their prosperity pastor told them it would.

Please note the part I have emphasized above in bold letters. It makes all the difference in the world.

I have address these concerns before and you continue to ignore or twist what I say.

I don't have a "prosperity pastor" and I have never referred to one. I don't believe that their asking for such things is in Biblical faith. Perhaps you do.

Now I know for sure that you are projecting your animosity and objections concerning televangelists unto me. Please stop it.

I understand God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is how you derive the teaching that whatever we claim, not even in the name of Jesus (Mark 11), will be done for us if we have enough "faith power".

I have never used the term faith power. I don't even believe it's a valid term.

Again - I have simply quoted scripture. You have charged me with quoting scripture without explanation.

IMO it is your "explanations" which effectively keep people from building their faith through reading the Word of God, believing what it says and acting on it.

My explanations about my theology on the matter completely explain why I do not teach what you say I do.

 

[razzelflabben]

“But isn't Christ's prayer in the garden the perfect picture of a prayer of faith believing? It is about our wills lining up with God's will no matter what our flesh desires?”


Okay, I think I finally understand (cross fingers). So you are asking if our prayer of faith can trump God’s will for our life. As in if God has something planned for us, or for our life, but we want to use our faith to change it, can we? You site Paul because he wanted the throne (persecution) to be removed, but you believe it was God’s will for him to go through what he did so that he wouldn’t become prideful. So you believe that what ended up happening with Paul was that God’s will over threw Paul prayer of faith? I hope I’m finally understanding that question because for some reason I had a hard time wrapping my head around it.


I hope this answers it. But I believe that God has willed, and called each of us for something very specific within our lives. God has a good, and perfect will for each and every one of our lives, something he pre-planned before we were even born. Now, for the sake of an example, lets say that my calling was to work the rest of my life as Janitor, but I saw this as a dead end position, and so I wanted to preacher instead because I saw that as a more fulfilling position. Now, I’m 100% sure that being a janitor is what God called me to be, but I don’t like that Idea, so I’m going to use my faith to change my calling, and God’s perfect plan for me. So, can I do that, can I use my faith to trump God’s plan for me? My answer to that is: No. A person cannot use their faith to change things around as they see fit (I’m just speaking in regards to someone’s overall calling). And like you put it, my faith will not be able to trump God’s will for my life.

good, thank you...now, what about if we don't know what God wants, or at least are not sure...does the same apply? And btw, thank you for finally answering the question.

Now here is the tricky part. Even though I cannot use my faith to force my will above Gods (again, I’m just talking about our overall calling in life), I can still use my freewill to go against God’s will anyways. Does that make sense? For example, God’s will for my life (I’m talking about me now) is to be in the 5 fold Ministry, but, it’s up to me whether I go along with his plan or not. Now even though I cannot use my faith change his will for my life, I can still use my freewill to be whatever the heck I want to be in life. We see this scenario played out in a lot of people's lives. They want one thing, but God has another thing in mind. They tell God how they want to live their lives, and all he's is thinking is, "I have something better, something you'll love." They then try to force what they want into existence. They will command things to work out, or they will use their faith to further themselves along, but what they don't realize is that they are trying to force something that wasn't supposed to happen in the first place.

this was already clear to me in your posts which is why I didn't ask about it.

For example, God calls me to Cananda, and I build and grow a very successful church that touches 10s of thousands of lives. But I'm sick of the harsh winters, and want to move base to Hawaii where it's nice and warm. And because I had so much success in Canada, why wouldn't I experience the same success in Hawaii as well? So I boldly tell God I want set up shop in Hawaii, then believe it and receive it, and make my move. Well, the reason I wouldn't be successful is because God didn't call me to Hawaii, and unless he tells me to setup base in Hawaii, chances are my Church may fail, or I'll just have very little success there. Will God still use me? Yes, God can still use me, as long as I'm willing to obey. Can God make the best out of the situation I just created? Of course he can, God is merciful, and forgiving.

actually you might be successful but it wouldn't be a success in the power of God but again that is a totally different discussion.

Now, I don’t believe it is ever God’s will for us to suffer. I don’t believe it’s ever God’s will to put us in a terrible situation because he needs us to go through it. Like in the example of Paul, I don’t believe it was God’s will for him to suffer. I do not believe It was God’s will for Paul to have that throne in order to stop him for becoming prideful. So why didn’t God remove the throne (persecution) then? Did he lack faith? Did he not believe hard enough?

this is one we disagree on but that isn't what I was asking, I already know we disagree on this and having studied suffering in depth I'm not likely to change my mind unless you can provide a passage I missed which isn't likely but possible. If you really feel it necessary post away but I have what I wanted, clarification about God's will over our own.

This is my belief, but he Lord didn’t remove Paul’s thorn because Jesus didn’t redeem believers from persecution. If Paul’s thorn had been sickness or poverty, then he could have prayed and received the answer to that prayer. But with persecution, the Lord doesn’t deliver believers; He strengthens them to be able to bear all things, thereby bringing glory to Himself and bringing conviction to their persecutors. Now, Paul’s thorn in the flesh was persecution that came from the devil, to make people think twice about accepting the Gospel, because of the persecution that accompanied it. Again, the reason God didn’t take Paul’s thorn away was not because He wanted to afflict Paul, but it was because believers are not redeemed from persecution. Paul later stated this in 2 Timothy 3:12: “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” If the Lord stopped all persecution against His followers, Saul would have died before he became the Apostle Paul because Paul was one of the leaders of the persecution against Christians. The Lord didn’t redeem Stephen from persecution but turned that bad situation around, and used it to glorify Himself and prick the heart of the future Apostle Paul. Plus, Jesus loves those who persecute us just as He loved those who persecuted Him (Luke 23:34). He wants the persecutors to be saved just as much as we are, but they can't get saved if he wiped them all out.

now you confuse me again...you just said that God never wants us to suffer then talk about how God doesn't stop us from suffering persecution. Do you really think that persecution isn't suffering? maybe the above paragraph isn't worded exactly as you intended? I don't know it confuses me about what you believe.

Praise God, that’s so awesome (them getting healed and feeling the power of God)!

Yes, you and I have the similar beliefs, but I believe we may see God's promises and will a bit differently. I do agree that God's promises are guaranteed as well, and I do believe that many people misunderstand them.

I would say you are one who misunderstands the promises of God and you would say it is I...maybe a good thorough bible study without the attacks would clarify if we both first ask God to wisdom and understanding in accord with His promise to give both when we ask?!?

I said all of that to hopefully answer a question as to why we don’t see some prayers answered. You mentioned you were 6 and were in a very terrible situation, even to the point of suicide. So I assumed that in the situation you were in, someone was doing something to you that was pushing you to the point of suicide. So therefore, you may have been asking God to either stop the situation, or make the person causing the situation stop. That’s why I made that comment. If I’m wrong in my assessment, I’m sorry. But I guess this could help someone else searching for an answer.

It's a beautiful story but one that I don't think you would understand given your current beliefs on the matter. Which is okay with me. I don't mind disagreeing I do mind being attacked for trying to understand your pov. I could also tell you of a young man that I know who went through some serious stuff and would tell you the same things I am telling you. In fact, even our pastor said that I taught him a lot about suffering and Christ and His plan for our lives. But that is another discussion for another time.

I do agree that we must pray according to God's will.

what about when we do not know God's will?

I'm speaking of both. There isn't a straight up list (which would be amazing), but we find them scattered throughout the word. Yes, understand the context of the verse is important because otherwise you can make the Bible say what ever you want. For example, I jokingly say to my wife that Paul commands women to be quiet. I am obviously taking that verse waaaaay out of context.

For example, the famous Proverbs 3:5-6, This is a promise that if we don't learn on our own wisdom and understanding, but rather, trust in God to guide us, and direct us in life, that he will give us a clear and straight path. Because when we do try things our way, we mess stuff us, and our path becomes like the letter S, and we go through unnecessary hardships.-

which is basically (could add so much more) why I believe that Paul's prayer of faith was answered by God. Paul needed to learn to trust in God and His wisdom not his own pride and wisdom. The thorn allowed him to learn that valuable lesson. But again, another discussion for another time and place.

Another example is, Psalms 91, which tell us that if we love God, put our trust in the Lord, and trust him to be our protector, and acknowledge him as our protector, that he will protect us. That he will put his Angels in charge over us. This isn't a promise that no trouble will come our way, but it's a promise that as long as we trust in him, we won't have to fear the evils that come our way.

Quick story...some years ago I was hit by a train. The train hit the car where the front fender and the door meet. The car was thrown from the tracks, the only thing that could be salvaged was one tire. There was no room in the drivers compartment for my legs and yet I literally walked away with minor injuries. In fact, the week before my accident and the week after saw two similar accidents and both were fatal. But you know what...I experienced God's protection but what was more is that I experienced God's promise to always bring good out of every situation...but again, that is another story how He used it...

A final example I will use is Mark 16:18, where Jesus promises me that If I lay hand on the sick, that they Shall recover. Which speaks on the authority he has given, and promised me. I can use this promise to pray for my wife and kids, knowing they will see their healing.

But remember what I warned in another post...according to the passage, the laying on of hands must also include the confessing of sins. Without that confession time and repentance thereof we are acting in sin by laying hands and praying and thus the promise is not guaranteed because we violated the promise with leaving out an important part of it.

Alright my Brother, I hope this helps bring some clarification. Good night and God Bless

I'm a sister, but yes it did, thank you...I did have a couple other questions in relation but thanks none the less.

 

[Marvin Knox]

wow do you have me wrong...I wonder if you asked God in faith believing for wisdom in this discussion so that I could better understand what you believe and why? If not, you should since wisdom is a promise from God when we ask and you seem to either not have asked or lack enough faith to receive.

Wow - how clever.

It doesn't take much wisdom to see a straw man when it is presented. People here have constantly accused me of believing what I don't believe and this in spite of my explanations to the contrary.

By the way - I've asked you to limit your posts to one aspect at a time if you wish me to participate. You have chosen not to do what I requested. So I'll just comment on one portion of your post and you can trot out the other portions individually in later posts if you wish me to clarify my beliefs for you.

On to the point which I'll address now.

In one post you seem to be saying that God's will always trumps our will and then you turn around and seem to be saying that God's will doesn't matter to the prayer of faith. So I asked you to clarify and I get all kinds of stuff about predestination,

It strikes me that I have simply quoted the words of Jesus on a matter concerning faith based prayer and it being answered affirmatively by God.

You, and others, immediately trot out your comments about the sovereignty of God and how it applies to the matter. This in spite of the clear words of Jesus.

I have continued the subject by referring to Him being the author and perfecter of our faith and pointing out how that sovereignty with regards to faith relates to the subject at hand.

Then I am taken to task for daring to dragging in "stuff" concerning the sovereignty of God where it supposedly isn't pertinent.

What's wrong with this picture?

If you don't see how one doctrine applies to the other I can't help you much. If you people can't understand how bringing the absolute sovereignty of God to bear on the doctrine we are discussing, then why did you bring it up?

This "stuff" about the sovereignty of God is all important when it comes to the inability of men to supposedly "drum up" enough faith to do what is not right or harmful and what is against God's will.

God is the author and perfecter of faith and it is absolutely important that we agree on that to keep you people from laying out "straw men" on the subject.

Some of you seem to be in the same camp as the "word of faith" abusers in thinking that faith is something inherent in man in and of itself and apart from God's authorship and orchestration.

I find it interesting that those who are quick to critique the word of faith types for their view of faith hold the same view on the nature of faith.

I can't speak to anyone you might wrongly compare me to in the "televangelist/word of faith" crowd. I have found their theology on the matter of faith to be lacking myself.

I'm not them and I can only speak for myself.

Word of faith types are IMO notoriously deficient in good balanced theology. I know from experience that it's hard to discuss these things with them because they tend to compartmentalize their theology.

Perhaps your weakness in systematic theology is the reason you can't see the explanations I give as being pertinent.

I have thought through this matter of faith based answered prayer in conjunction with other matters related to the sovereignty of God in all things which happen in His creation - and they meld perfectly one with the other.

It strikes me that you and others are eager to point to a doctrine (the sovereignty of God) in an abbreviated way when it suits you - when it is obvious to me (wisdom ) that you haven't really thought the doctrine and it's implication through in it's totality.

 

[razzelflabben]

Wow - how clever.

It doesn't take much wisdom to see a straw man when it is presented. People here have constantly accused me of believing what I don't believe and this in spite of my explanations to the contrary.

By the way - I've asked you to limit your posts to one aspect at a time if you wish me to participate. You have chosen not to do what I requested. So I'll just comment on one portion of your post and you can trot out the other portions individually in later posts if you wish me to clarify my beliefs for you.

On to the point which I'll address now.

It strikes me that I have simply quoted the words of Jesus on a matter concerning faith based prayer and it being answered affirmatively by God.

You, and others, immediately trot out your comments about the sovereignty of God and how it applies to the matter. This in spite of the clear words of Jesus.

at this point I seriously have no clue what you are going on about unless of course you just want to argue about something. I said nothing about God's sovereignty. In fact I think His sovereignty is pretty clear on the matter. But whatever...you obviously have no interest in clarifying what you believe for me on this matter...

I have continued the subject by referring to Him being the author and perfecter of our faith and pointing out how that sovereignty with regards to faith relates to the subject at hand.

I have no question for you about God's sovereignty or His being the author and perfecter of our faith. I have a question about whether or not you believe God's will trumps our prayer of faith? Nothing more or less at this point in our discussion.

Then I am taken to task for daring to dragging in "stuff" concerning the sovereignty of God where it supposedly isn't pertinent.

What's wrong with this picture?

your unwillingness to talk to me instead of the made up person in your head. I know we disagree on some things pertaining to this topic but the disagreements are not what you think they are.

If you don't see how one doctrine applies to the other I can't help you much. If you people can't understand how bringing the absolute sovereignty of God to bear on the doctrine we are discussing, then why did you bring it up?

I didn't bring it up, you did in exchange for answering the simple question do you or do you not believe that God's will trumps our prayer of faith? As in...if I pray for something that is outside the perfect will of God for my life does His will prevail or my prayer of faith?

This "stuff" about the sovereignty of God is all important when it comes to the inability of men to supposedly "drum up" enough faith to do what is not right or harmful and what is against God's will.

God is the author and perfecter of faith and it is absolutely important that we agree on that to keep you people from laying out "straw men" on the subject.

you people?!? Seriously?!? I asked you to clarify something about your belief...I guess that means that anyone asking you to clarify something about your belief is "you people"...how odd that you would be one of "those people" who doesn't want to be heard or understood.

Some of you seem to be in the same camp as the "word of faith" abusers in thinking that faith is something inherent in man in and of itself and apart from God's authorship and orchestration.

now you change the topic again and still haven't answered the only question I have asked of you.

Of course God gives us a measure of faith as per scripture...that being said, Christ in that He was God I would assume had all the faith that was necessary to move a mountain. I mean look at all the miracles He did do seems to me that is faith...yet I am told He lacked faith...seriously? He received exactly what He prayed for in the garden, God's will over His own. Thus the question still stands unanswered by you. Does or does Not God's will trump our prayer of faith?

I find it interesting that those who are quick to critique the word of faith types for their view of faith hold the same view on the nature of faith.

and yet I have NOT critiqued anything I have only ask for clarification on one point.

I can't speak to anyone you might wrongly compare me to in the "televangelist/word of faith" crowd. I have found their theology on the matter of faith to be lacking myself.

huh?

I'm not them and I can only speak for myself.

Word of faith types are IMO notoriously deficient in good balanced theology. I know from experience that it's hard to discuss these things with them because they tend to compartmentalize their theology.

I am not talking to them or their theology I am talking to you and trying to find out what you believe as to the will of God over the will of a man's prayer of faith.

Perhaps your weakness in systematic theology is the reason you can't see the explanations I give as being pertinent.

hum...so now I am flawed in my reasoning because I asked you about your view of the will of God over the will of man and you talk about everything else...wow, just wow talk about hard to talk to...so far you are harder to talk to then any word of faither I have had the privileged of speaking with.

I have thought through this matter of faith based answered prayer in conjunction with other matters related to the sovereignty of God in all things which happen in His creation - and they meld perfectly one with the other.

It strikes me that you and others are eager to point to a doctrine (the sovereignty of God) in an abbreviated way when it suits you - when it is obvious to me (wisdom ) that you haven't really thought the doctrine and it's implication through in it's totality.

Since I have said nothing about the sovereignty of God nor asked you about your opinions of the sovereignty of God I guess your view of godliness is just attacking someone who simply wants to understand your pov...I am so thankful that is not how God Himself addresses those that seek Him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

By the way first off and then I'll let it go. You brought up various examples and issues in your very first post to me. I have been trying to answer your questions and objections in a forthright manner all along.

And now you say that you have had only one question for me all along. That simply isn't true. This just from the first post. The question was not and has not been as simple as you want to make it now.

You statements and questions have been many pronged and have required nuance to answer. I have attempted to provide that and you claim that I am simply jumping around and rambling.

this makes it sound like you believe that spiritual healing and obedience trumps physical healing and yet the teaching in question does not speak about this as truth. In fact, Paul did not receive the thing he asked for nor did Christ in the garden...so did they both lack faith to believe it was theirs or is there something bigger at work then simply our asking for the desires of our hearts? That is the question I posse in an attempt to get some clarification. if...we are to assume as the OP seems to, that anything we ask is ours not matter what we ask for as long as we ask in belief then we must assume that Paul and Christ both lacked believing faith and I simply am not sure i can personally go along with that....As per the other things you list against, I can't see that Christ didn't receive because He had wrong motives do you? I am simply looking for some clarifications about the teaching that some hold that no matter what we ask for it is ours if we believe it is ours. From my study not only are there restrictions as you point out but asking in God's name means according to His will which is played out in both examples of Paul and Christ....iow's if it is according to God's will and purpose as we allow Him to transform our desires into His desires is how I understand it. In an attempt to understand the other side I ask questions and offer both Paul and Christ as examples of prayers not being answered as the person asked for it to be given. Please explain your position...

If I have lumped you in with others here incorrectly - I apologize for it.

My only excuse is that these posts get so long and involved and so many of them that I can't (or won't) work hard to remember who is who.

In rereading your last posts you have stressed several times that you only want to know one thing.

It's a simple question...Does God's will always trump the prayer in faith believing? Yes or no...

You don't seem to desire or accept any nuance concerning my beliefs. I suppose a simple question deserves a simple answer.

No - the prayer of faith is His will.

(THERE'S A SMALL NUANCE THERE EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T DIDN'T WANT ANY.)

 

[razzelflabben]

By the way first off and then I'll let it go. You brought up various examples and issues in your very first post to me. I have been trying to answer your questions and objections in a forthright manner all along.

what objections? I simply asked for clarification nothing more or less.

And now you say that you have had only one question for me all along. That simply isn't true. This just from the first post. The question was not and has not been as simple as you want to make it now.

You statements and questions have been many pronged and have required nuance to answer. I have attempted to provide that and you claim that I am simply jumping around and rambling.

and yet I demonstrated that it was all the same question just asked different ways so that you couldn't just dismiss it as you have been doing....I really am tired of this...If you don't want to clarify your position simply say you don't want to clarify your position and leave it at that...it really is that simple.

If I have lumped you in with others here incorrectly - I apologize for it.

My only excuse is that these posts get so long and involved and so many of them that I can't (or won't) work hard to remember who is who.

you don't have to remember you just have to address what I said when you quote me...it really isn't that hard.

In rereading your last posts you have stressed several times that you only want to know one thing.

You don't seem to desire or accept any nuance concerning my beliefs. I suppose a simple question deserves a simple answer.

No - the prayer of faith is His will.

then that would mean that in your opinion no one could ask for something believing to receive and then not get it. IOW's if I understand you right, your opinion is that if God says something like He did to Paul...My strength is made perfect in your weakness...then Paul didn't pray in faith believing because he didn't pray for God's strength to start off with....is that right? Okay, now I have another question based on that assumption. If the only prayer of faith is one that is God's will, where in scripture does it say that God's gift of faith is every changing from great faith to little faith to medium faith to back to great faith, etc. when I read scripture about faith I don't see that sliding scale faith that you seem to be talking about here. In fact, what I see is a God who wants us to ever grow in faith not go back and forth as you seem to be saying. Please point me to this sliding scale faith that you are talking about here.

 

[Marvin Knox]

then that would mean that in your opinion no one could ask for something believing to receive and then not get it.

That is correct. "Believing" being the key word. One cannot have faith to receive unless that faith is given to him by God as I see it. God is the author and perfecter of our faith. It is not of our selves and it certainly isn't something possessed by the world.

If one has faith to receive (given by God - it's author) the thing they were led to ask for in that faith would be in the will of God.

IOW's if I understand you right, your opinion is that if God says something like He did to Paul...My strength is made perfect in your weakness...then Paul didn't pray in faith believing because he didn't pray for God's strength to start off with....is that right?

I'm actually a little unsure what you mean by the last part of that sentence - "start off with" etc.

Even a good Christian person can pray amiss - only to be corrected by God, which was apparently what happened with Paul. (Nowhere does it say that Paul ever had faith to receive. In fact he may even have been praying amiss after being told God's will in the matter beforehand - for instance when his "direct" training was finished and he was sent into ministry by God.)

Of course we haven't been filled in about those thing. We only know that Paul prayed for deliverance from persecution and that he was told (or reminded) why his prayers were not being answered.

No where does it say that Paul's "thorn" was a physical infirmity. In fact there is every reason to believe that it was not. But that doesn't stop people from almost immediately trotting it out as an example that God doesn't always physically heal when we pray in faith - a pet peeve of mine.

We, as teachers of the Word, should first teach what is available to us through faith based prayer and only after seeing it in scripture and agreeing on it should we refer to possible acceptations to the rule. IMO - anything other than that formula tends to undermine faith and cause people to not access what is available to them.

And - although I now realize that it wasn't you -
A person addressing a discussion on answered prayer should be able to quote simple straight forward scriptures as I did.

"Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him." Mark 11:23

"Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." Ps.37:4

"You do not have because you do not ask." James 4:2

Without being subjected to talk of "personal Jedi powers" and "Jesus name spells" and the like for doing it.

Paul didn't pray in God given faith because he did not pray according to God's will. In fact he was praying against the will of God. He was asking amiss. Under those circumstances he would obviously not receive faith from God to receive and he would not receive no matter how loud he yelled at the mountain in his own power.

Some (like word of faith televangelists and the like) teach that faith is something inherent in human kind which we drum up out of our enthusiasm for a particular thing and by saying certain things loud enough in our claiming. They seem to teach exactly what you and I believe not to be true - namely that one can have anything they ask for and claim. He simply has to drum up enough of his inherent faith to get God to award him with it even if it isn't something God had planned to do.

That's not what I believe and I have never said so. That's why I have labeled those kinds of charges against me as "straw men".

Let's forget about whether it has been you or others who have battered me with these false charges. I don't have the inclination to review every one of our posts. If you say that that hasn't been you, then I'll take your word for it. I have apologized for linking you into those kinds of straw men if it hasn't been a valid charge against you.

Okay, now I have another question based on that assumption. If the only prayer of faith is one that is God's will, where in scripture does it say that God's gift of faith is every changing from great faith to little faith to medium faith to back to great faith, etc. when I read scripture about faith I don't see that sliding scale faith that you seem to be talking about here. In fact, what I see is a God who wants us to ever grow in faith not go back and forth as you seem to be saying. Please point me to this sliding scale faith that you are talking about here.

I have never said anything about a "sliding scale faith". I don't believe that my answer to you shows a sliding scale faith. What it does show is that faith is a gift from God which we are to nurture and train.

We nurture it by listening to the Holy Spirit and studying the scriptures under His tutelage often and particularly before we pray for anything in particular. We train it by asking for small readily available and scripture mandated things like calling for the elders and the like. Then we will be able to access faith for more difficult things when the time comes by praying with authority without doubting.

Faith should be ever increasing throughout our life. There are things I hope for which I do not have faith for and there are things I hope for which I do have faith for.

I may have the faith for a healing for me or someone else at one time - based on scripture promises (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God). Then some time later I may lack faith for a lottery win.

Just because the faith and lack of faith are sequentially strong to weak (and then back to strong again for a financial need for instance) -- doesn't mean the faith is on a "sliding" scale, whatever that means. It's there sometimes and sometimes it isn't - if you insist on that term, then you may call it sliding.

Likely the ever increasing faith which God desires for us to have will be based on my studies as to what the Lord wills for us, Holy Spirit leading, practiced faith prayer, over against praying for selfish things that I will spend on myself, prayer while in sin and without confession and the like.

It is quite possible, as I see it, to grieve the Holy Spirit and limit our access to faith even though the thing we would pray for was in God's will. Sin and doubt can limit faith as I read things.

If your own access to God's faith is getting stronger every day of your life without the ups and downs present in my walk with the Lord - more power to you.

I don't believe in a sliding scale faith as I think you mean the term, nor in faith based prayers answered because I demand them to be answered, nor a self induced ability to "speak things into existence" -- nor the weak theology based word of faith human induced faith as presented by certain preachers.

I believe in a sovereign God given faith which is built up by yielding to the Holy Spirit - to be ready for the times when one of the good works God has prepared for me to walk in stands before me waiting for me to take the kingdom by force in a faith given by the grace of God.

If you or anyone else find fault with me for that theology then that's fine with me. It just seems to me to be crystal clear correct when a good systematic application of scripture vs. scripture is applied to the topic.

God makes certain statements about prayer in general including certain promises concerning it''s positive answers if accompanied by faith.

He also gives us certain acceptation to the rule so that we can evaluate things when we don't get the answers we want.

Some people have seized on the acceptations (or whatever you want to call them) to the extent that they effectively cancel out any attempt at praying with authority by faith and receiving what we ask for.

Others - the word of faith types, if you will - seize on the other statements to the extent that they make prayer a mere formula without involving self examination of any kind.

I have done neither. I have endeavored to balance the two without leaving one aspect out in favor of the other.

 

[Theadorus]

good, thank you...now, what about if we don't know what God wants, or at least are not sure...does the same apply? And btw, thank you for finally answering the question.

No, one still cannot change their overall will/calling on their lives, because that would be something that isn't according to God's will.

what about when we do not know God's will?

I'm most likely going to repeat myself again, so I apologize in advance.

So we cannot change our overall calling in our lives; we cannot faith our way into a new calling/purpose/will for our lives no matter how much we believe, or not matter how much faith we have. God picked that out for us, and anointed us since the beginning of time.

But what if we don't know what that is, or unsure of what it is? Can I still use my faith to change it? No. But you can use your faith to do other things in life that have nothing to do with your calling, but your overall calling still remains the same. What happens is that you just end up taking a different road, or different path towards that calling. Does that make sense? God would still find a way for us to fulfill that overall purpose.

I'll use this example again, but I'm called into the 5 fold ministry, but I was going to be a video game programmer. I could have stuck with the programming job instead of coming out to Colorado to go to Bible college and move towards my calling. Being a programmer would not have changed my overall purpose in life, all it would have done was change the path I took to reach my overall calling and also the time it took to get there. My path life would have been much different. But God would have still figured out a way for me to fulfill that overall calling. Could I still have been successful in what I did? Yes (I changed my answer from what I previous said and I agree more with what you say (God is showing me things )).

But in the area of our overall purpose, God's overall calling/will for our lives cannot be trumped. If we don't know it or understand it fully, we wouldn't be able to accidentally change it despite how genuine our prayers are. All we can do is change the road/path we take to get there. So again, if we ask for anything according to God's will we shall have it. Praying against our overall calling/God's will for our lives is not a prayer that is according to "God's will, so therefore, it cannot be answered.

Hopefully I answered that question without making things confusing.

It's a beautiful story but one that I don't think you would understand given your current beliefs on the matter. Which is okay with me. I don't mind disagreeing I do mind being attacked for trying to understand your pov. I could also tell you of a young man that I know who went through some serious stuff and would tell you the same things I am telling you. In fact, even our pastor said that I taught him a lot about suffering and Christ and His plan for our lives. But that is another discussion for another time.

I'm sorry If I came off as attacking you. It wasn't something I intentionally.

I would say you are one who misunderstands the promises of God and you would say it is I...maybe a good thorough bible study without the attacks would clarify if we both first ask God to wisdom and understanding in accord with His promise to give both when we ask?!?

Again, I apologize if I felt as though I was attacking you, that was not my intention. But I do agree about praying for wisdom regarding that matter.

now you confuse me again...you just said that God never wants us to suffer then talk about how God doesn't stop us from suffering persecution. Do you really think that persecution isn't suffering? maybe the above paragraph isn't worded exactly as you intended? I don't know it confuses me about what you believe.

Perhaps we'll save this for another time. I realize I do this a lot, where I don't make my points very clear.

Quick story...some years ago I was hit by a train. The train hit the car where the front fender and the door meet. The car was thrown from the tracks, the only thing that could be salvaged was one tire. There was no room in the drivers compartment for my legs and yet I literally walked away with minor injuries. In fact, the week before my accident and the week after saw two similar accidents and both were fatal. But you know what...I experienced God's protection but what was more is that I experienced God's promise to always bring good out of every situation...but again, that is another story how He used it...

Praise the Lord! Amazing story!

I'm a sister, but yes it did, thank you...I did have a couple other questions in relation but thanks none the less.

Wait.... You're a girl . Lol, I need to stop doing that. I've done that a few times now

 

[Wordkeeper]

No, one still cannot change their overall will/calling on their lives, because that would be something that isn't according to God's will.



I'm most likely going to repeat myself again, so I apologize in advance.

So we cannot change our overall calling in our lives; we cannot faith our way into a new calling/purpose/will for our lives no matter how much we believe, or not matter how much faith we have. God picked that out for us, and anointed us since the beginning of time.

But what if we don't know what that is, or unsure of what it is? Can I still use my faith to change it? No. But you can use your faith to do other things in life that have nothing to do with your calling, but your overall calling still remains the same. What happens is that you just end up taking a different road, or different path towards that calling. Does that make sense? God would still find a way for us to fulfill that overall purpose.

I'll use this example again, but I'm called into the 5 fold ministry, but I was going to be a video game programmer. I could have stuck with the programming job instead of coming out to Colorado to go to Bible college and move towards my calling. Being a programmer would not have changed my overall purpose in life, all it would have done was change the path I took to reach my overall calling and also the time it took to get there. My path life would have been much different. But God would have still figured out a way for me to fulfill that overall calling. Could I still have been successful in what I did? Yes (I changed my answer from what I previous said and I agree more with what you say (God is showing me things )).

But in the area of our overall purpose, God's overall calling/will for our lives cannot be trumped. If we don't know it or understand it fully, we wouldn't be able to accidentally change it despite how genuine our prayers are. All we can do is change the road/path we take to get there. So again, if we ask for anything according to God's will we shall have it. Praying against our overall calling/God's will for our lives is not a prayer that is according to "God's will, so therefore, it cannot be answered.

Hopefully I answered that question without making things confusing.



I'm sorry If I came off as attacking you. It wasn't something I intentionally.



Again, I apologize if I felt as though I was attacking you, that was not my intention. But I do agree about praying for wisdom regarding that matter.




Perhaps we'll save this for another time. I realize I do this a lot, where I don't make my points very clear.



Praise the Lord! Amazing story!



Wait.... You're a girl . Lol, I need to stop doing that. I've done that a few times now

Wrong. Paul said desire the better gifts. He did. And he prayed for them as well, because he knew he could get a better resurrection, an ex anastasis.

But God said His Grace, His favour, was sufficient even for the ex anastasis.

And to have God's favour all you had to do was to be faithful, do loyal acts. Like pray for the better gifts.

 

[Theadorus]

Wrong.

Wrong. Paul said desire the better gifts. He did. And he prayed for them as well, because he knew he could get a better resurrection, an ex anastasis.

But God said His Grace, His favour, was sufficient even for the ex anastasis.

And to have God's favour all you had to do was to be faithful, do loyal acts. Like pray for the better gifts.

Would you mind siting the verse in regards to the better gifts if it means something else to what I'm about to post? If I recall correctly, you are talking about 1 Corinthians 12:31, and these Chapters were in reference to the Gifts of the Spirit. He was telling them to desire and hunger for the gifts of the Spirit. That the Holy Spirit will give the gifts as he chooses, but we need to hunger and desire them. I can desire the gift of prophecy, but that doesn't mean I was called to be a prophet within the 5 fold ministry.

I'm sorry for my confusing, but I'm not sure what that has to do with our purpose, or God's will for our life.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Would you mind siting the verse in regards to the better gifts if it means something else to what I'm about to post? If I recall correctly, you are talking about 1 Corinthians 12:31, and these Chapters were in reference to the Gifts of the Spirit. He was telling them to desire and hunger for the gifts of the Spirit. That the Holy Spirit will give the gifts as he chooses, but we need to hunger and desire them. I can desire the gift of prophecy, but that doesn't mean I was called to be a prophet within the 5 fold ministry.

I'm sorry for my confusing, but I'm not sure what that has to do with our purpose, or God's will for our life.

Yu posted that a believer cannot over rule God's calling.

But Scripture commands EVERYONE to desire the better gifts, the gifts that build up.


1 Corinthians 14:1-5
1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.2For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

 

[razzelflabben]

That is correct. "Believing" being the key word. One cannot have faith to receive unless that faith is given to him by God as I see it. God is the author and perfecter of our faith. It is not of our selves and it certainly isn't something possessed by the world.

If one has faith to receive (given by God - it's author) the thing they were led to ask for in that faith would be in the will of God.

I'm actually a little unsure what you mean by the last part of that sentence - "start off with" etc.

Even a good Christian person can pray amiss - only to be corrected by God, which was apparently what happened with Paul. (Nowhere does it say that Paul ever had faith to receive. In fact he may even have been praying amiss after being told God's will in the matter beforehand - for instance when his "direct" training was finished and he was sent into ministry by God.)

Of course we haven't been filled in about those thing. We only know that Paul prayed for deliverance from persecution and that he was told (or reminded) why his prayers were not being answered.

hum...I can think of two times right off the top of my head, one in the OT and one in the NT where people who "received" or were told they had great faith questioned whether or not God would grant their request. So...if faith is believing it is done, then why did they accept that it might not happen as they desired...you were already given the example of Christ in the garden but we also have the firey furnace in the OT and the centurion in the NT and even Christ spoke about how great his faith was. How do these examples fit into your theology?

No where does it say that Paul's "thorn" was a physical infirmity. In fact there is every reason to believe that it was not. But that doesn't stop people from almost immediately trotting it out as an example that God doesn't always physically heal when we pray in faith - a pet peeve of mine.

now you are going down another rabbit trail with me that I have no interest in going down with you. The very fact that we are not told what the thorn Paul experienced was is evidence enough that you might or might not be right in your understanding. IOW's if what the thorn was was important to the understanding of what happened, scripture would have told us what the thorn was which is one of the very reasons you and I disagree on this matter. Because we do not know what the thorn was, all we can assume was that it was nothing that would hinder the work of God in Paul's life. Period end of statement. You want to read more into it which is your business but I personally am not here to argue what the thorn was...personal I am content to consider the story based on what we do know without reading into it what isn't there. I would hope that you could stop trying to take me down these rabbit holes of yours and just answer the questions I have of your ideas on the topic at hand. Thank you in advance. BTW, we are not talking about physical healing in this thread but rather calling as per the OP question which makes this paragraph two different rabbit trails you are trying to go down.

We, as teachers of the Word, should first teach what is available to us through faith based prayer and only after seeing it in scripture and agreeing on it should we refer to possible acceptations to the rule. IMO - anything other than that formula tends to undermine faith and cause people to not access what is available to them.

another rabbit trail? Why? First there is no formula for acquiring what we want from God. It is either given by God and through His grace or it is not. In fact, if we believe in faith that His promises are absolute there is no need for begging, coercing, having a specific formula, or anything else. A promise is a promise end of story and if you can't rest in those promises then you don't believe they are yours. Now...that being said, there are sometimes things we must do, for example, the promise of eternal life is conditional upon our belief of the heart. But once we believe it's done....end of story we are saved unto eternal life. IT's a promise...likewise with every promise we are given. I personally wish I knew more people who could simply believe that God's promises are just that, but that is a whole different discussion and so we should leave that lay for the time being.

And - although I now realize that it wasn't you -
A person addressing a discussion on answered prayer should be able to quote simple straight forward scriptures as I did.

I can and in some instances I do and in others I don't. I study scripture up to 30 hours a week. I used to study over 40 hours a week but am taking a break to pursue another matter God has led me to. In that study I can easily consider in prayer an easy 500 - 1000 passages. If I quoted all the passages that I study on any given topic it would be way overload for this format. In fact, when I put the studies together each individual study makes for a long book. You might want to appreciate that I don't subject you to that but rather trust that you too have studied in excess of just what you have been told to believe the word of God says by various teachers. You see, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on this matter. That should be encouraging to you rather than discouraging.

"Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him." Mark 11:23

"Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." Ps.37:4

"You do not have because you do not ask." James 4:2

do you really want to get into a Bible study on these passages? As in context of the passage, context with the totality of scripture, word study, etc.? If you do, I suggest starting a thread for that purpose. I happen to know that you are leaving out context by just quoting the portion that suits you which I personally find offensive but have ignored it for the sake of the OP question.

Without being subjected to talk of "personal Jedi powers" and "Jesus name spells" and the like for doing it.

not me...but moving on.

Paul didn't pray in God given faith because he did not pray according to God's will. In fact he was praying against the will of God. He was asking amiss. Under those circumstances he would obviously not receive faith from God to receive and he would not receive no matter how loud he yelled at the mountain in his own power.

now see, this is something that you and I disagree on. I am not looking for a debate just stating that you and I disagree on this. The very fact that Paul accepted God's answer tells me that he not only prayed in faith believing but prayed that prayer with the understanding that God's will trumped his own and he was fine with that. It's the same thing we see in Jesus prayer in the garden. His very prayer asked God to trump His (Jesus) own will with His (God's) will. That is a prayer of FAITH from my perspective and the study I have done on faith. In fact, it is also consistent with the two examples I give above. Which makes me curious why so many that claim as you do or seem to be claiming anyway can't understand how important accepting God's will is to the prayer of faith...ah well, this is a whole different discussion in that I am only trying to understand your position at this point in time. I cannot know if or where or why we disagree if I can't first understand what you intent to express of your ideas.

Some (like word of faith televangelists and the like) teach that faith is something inherent in human kind which we drum up out of our enthusiasm for a particular thing and by saying certain things loud enough in our claiming. They seem to teach exactly what you and I believe not to be true - namely that one can have anything they ask for and claim. He simply has to drum up enough of his inherent faith to get God to award him with it even if it isn't something God had planned to do.

not sure why you bring up this rabbit trail but okay...

That's not what I believe and I have never said so. That's why I have labeled those kinds of charges against me as "straw men".

that wasn't a claim I made of you so again not sure why you want to go down this rabbit trail but whatever....moving on.

Let's forget about whether it has been you or others who have battered me with these false charges. I don't have the inclination to review every one of our posts. If you say that that hasn't been you, then I'll take your word for it. I have apologized for linking you into those kinds of straw men if it hasn't been a valid charge against you.

it's easy enough to just address what my post that you quote says without reading into it what isn't there or what someone else said. Just like this post...look at all the things you are adding that aren't here...then you try to accuse me of bringing things up I didn't bring up. I honestly believe you and I can talk about the topic and come to some knowledge we don't already have but it won't happen as long as you try to falsely accuse me by going down all these rabbit trails that have no bearing at all on what I am asking, saying, believe, etc.

I have never said anything about a "sliding scale faith". I don't believe that my answer to you shows a sliding scale faith. What it does show is that faith is a gift from God which we are to nurture and train.

according to what you said in answer to my question, it would be possible and I would have seen and experienced something like this....prayer 1...answer to prayer because of great faith...prayer 2...answer to prayer because of great faith...prayer 3...no answer to prayer because of lack of faith...prayer 4...another answer because of faith...prayer 5-10....back to no answer because of lack of faith then prayer 11-18 answered because of faith...this is a sliding scale of faith that I am asking you to evidence from scripture. As I understand faith, God gives each man a measure of faith and that man is responsible for seeing that faith grow as he grows and matures in Christ through that faith. Nothing sliding about it. the pattern would be more like (as per my understanding of scripture) prayer 1...not answered because of lack of faith, prayers 2-18 answered because of faith....which brings us back to Paul. If Paul had already been given a measure of faith that had taken him through many trials and temptations and revelations of the Christ, why did he suddenly loss the faith that God had given him only to find it again later? Where did it go? Why did God remove the faith He had given Paul previously so that he wouldn't have this prayer answered after having other prayers answered because of faith? I'm not following your logic here...but maybe I missed something in scripture which is why I am asking what scripture you base this sliding scale of faith on.

We nurture it by listening to the Holy Spirit and studying the scriptures under His tutelage often and particularly before we pray for anything in particular. We train it by asking for small readily available and scripture mandated things like calling for the elders and the like. Then we will be able to access faith for more difficult things when the time comes by praying with authority without doubting.

another rabbit trail I have no current interest in discussing since it takes us off topic.

Faith should be ever increasing throughout our life. There are things I hope for which I do not have faith for and there are things I hope for which I do have faith for.

and so what of Paul? He previously had faith for all kinds of amazing things and miracles but then (questioning brow) lacked faith for "healing" of the thorn (again, don't know what the thorn was the word healing just fit what I was saying but is NOT an indication of physical healing) In fact, this brings up the whole teaching that we would see greater miracles than the once in Jesus day and that Paul did. What is the greater miracles? If all we can have faith for is physical healing and other such worldly possessions what is the greater that was promised? Why did Paul have enough faith to see all kinds of miracles happen but then lacked faith for a splinter? (the word thorn basically according to the Lexicon means splinter) IOWs if Paul's faith was great enough to all kinds of healing (again meaning all kinds not just physical) what happened to his growing faith that you are talking about? Wouldn't that mean that he lost faith rather than growing in it?

I may have the faith for a healing for me or someone else at one time - based on scripture promises (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God). Then some time later I may lack faith for a lottery win.

But what about the healing of another person? Forget the lottery ticket here that isn't even on the table as that would take us back to the notion that God's will trumps our will. Let's just of the sake of understanding the question being asked of you...why would I have the faith to be healed and to see others healed but then suddenly I lack the same faith to see someone else healed if my measure of faith is a gift from God that grows not diminishes?

Just because the faith and lack of faith are sequentially strong to weak (and then back to strong again for a financial need for instance) -- doesn't mean the faith is on a "sliding" scale, whatever that means. It's there sometimes and sometimes it isn't - if you insist on that term, then you may call it sliding.

But you are changing the question...we are talking about the same promises are sometimes given and sometimes not given if it is because of faith alone then where do you get the notion that God takes away faith that He previously gave?

Likely the ever increasing faith which God desires for us to have will be based on my studies as to what the Lord wills for us, Holy Spirit leading, practiced faith prayer, over against praying for selfish things that I will spend on myself, prayer while in sin and without confession and the like.

I am getting worn out by your long posts that go down all kinds of rabbit trails that I have no interest in and still avoid answering the question. I'll assume you didn't answer the question but I know I have now been very clear so we will try it again. We are not talking about changing the prayer from healing to personal gain and indulgences that would mean the discussion is still about God's will over ours....but you said that God's will is over ours and thus it is not a prayer of faith if it is not God's will. What I am asking you now is about asking for the same things. For example you like to focus on healing of the flesh...so why is it that someone can have faith enough for their own healing and the healing of others then suddenly their faith is gone for the prayer of healing for someone else? Why do you think that God gives and takes away faith when scripture seems to say that we should grow in the faith God has given?

It is quite possible, as I see it, to grieve the Holy Spirit and limit our access to faith even though the thing we would pray for was in God's will. Sin and doubt can limit faith as I read things.

okay sin goes back to the issue of laying hands on and praying for the sick. If you reread the passage in context you will see that the prayer of the sick of laying hands is one that begins with confession and repentance. If we don't include that part we are sinning and should not expect the prayer to be answered. No problem for my understanding of what you are saying. What I don't understand is that when sin is no longer the issue, when doubt isn't the issue, when it is the same faith that saw others healed, etc. what is the problem? Why do you seem to think that God gives faith but also takes it away? Again, this is what I understand you to be saying as I try to weed through all the rabbit trails you are throwing into this post. If I am wrong you need to explain what I have wrong and how I have it wrong since the question was about the prayer that does not lack doubt or is rooted in sin.

If your own access to God's faith is getting stronger every day of your life without the ups and downs present in my walk with the Lord - more power to you.

hum....confusion. My faith constantly grows because of the struggles or ups and downs if you will that I experience. It is the challenges to my trust of God no matter the situation that grow my faith. In fact, that is something I am talking to my pastor about today. The challenge of trusting God even when it costs us greatly.

I don't believe in a sliding scale faith as I think you mean the term, nor in faith based prayers answered because I demand them to be answered, nor a self induced ability to "speak things into existence" -- nor the weak theology based word of faith human induced faith as presented by certain preachers.

The only thing here I am confused about is what seems to be your belief that there is some sliding scale of faith. Now I can accept that you don't believe this but I dont' understand how you don't believe it based on the answers you have given. I would greatly appreciate you clearing that up for me.

I believe in a sovereign God given faith which is built up by yielding to the Holy Spirit - to be ready for the times when one of the good works God has prepared for me to walk in stands before me waiting for me to take the kingdom by force in a faith given by the grace of God.

amen, but that doesn't answer the question...see above.

If you or anyone else find fault with me for that theology then that's fine with me. It just seems to me to be crystal clear correct when a good systematic application of scripture vs. scripture is applied to the topic.

not a clue what you are going on about here. Personally I allow scripture to interpret and clarifies scripture....we cannot "reason" truth into scripture if we are trusting God with all our hearts and lean not on our own understanding.

God makes certain statements about prayer in general including certain promises concerning it''s positive answers if accompanied by faith.

I have no problem with that either.

He also gives us certain acceptation to the rule so that we can evaluate things when we don't get the answers we want.

No I refuse to accept that there are any exceptions to God's promises. His promises are guarantees without exception. But if you want to believe there are exceptions to God's promises that is up to you. Personally I believe that even the prayer of faith is a guarantee as long as we understand what the promise says and means without reading into it what is not there.

Some people have seized on the acceptations (or whatever you want to call them) to the extent that they effectively cancel out any attempt at praying with authority by faith and receiving what we ask for.

Others - the word of faith types, if you will - seize on the other statements to the extent that they make prayer a mere formula without involving self examination of any kind.

I have done neither. I have endeavored to balance the two without leaving one aspect out in favor of the other.

I'm not really interested in your personal reasoning I am interesting in where in scripture you get the idea that God gives faith and takes it as well? As per the above clarifications of the question that I am not getting about your assertions to the issue at hand.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, one still cannot change their overall will/calling on their lives, because that would be something that isn't according to God's will.

So it still comes down to God's will and that is an absolute!?! We can however violate God's will as per going our own way...think here our choice of whether to believe unto salvation or not.

I'm most likely going to repeat myself again, so I apologize in advance.

So we cannot change our overall calling in our lives; we cannot faith our way into a new calling/purpose/will for our lives no matter how much we believe, or not matter how much faith we have. God picked that out for us, and anointed us since the beginning of time.

But what if we don't know what that is, or unsure of what it is? Can I still use my faith to change it? No. But you can use your faith to do other things in life that have nothing to do with your calling, but your overall calling still remains the same. What happens is that you just end up taking a different road, or different path towards that calling. Does that make sense? God would still find a way for us to fulfill that overall purpose.

I'll use this example again, but I'm called into the 5 fold ministry, but I was going to be a video game programmer. I could have stuck with the programming job instead of coming out to Colorado to go to Bible college and move towards my calling. Being a programmer would not have changed my overall purpose in life, all it would have done was change the path I took to reach my overall calling and also the time it took to get there. My path life would have been much different. But God would have still figured out a way for me to fulfill that overall calling. Could I still have been successful in what I did? Yes (I changed my answer from what I previous said and I agree more with what you say (God is showing me things )).

But in the area of our overall purpose, God's overall calling/will for our lives cannot be trumped. If we don't know it or understand it fully, we wouldn't be able to accidentally change it despite how genuine our prayers are. All we can do is change the road/path we take to get there. So again, if we ask for anything according to God's will we shall have it. Praying against our overall calling/God's will for our lives is not a prayer that is according to "God's will, so therefore, it cannot be answered.

Let me tell you a story I think you will appreciate if I am following you...If I still get it wrong please let me know.

some years ago in two totally different situations and unknown to each other, God called my husband and I to go to Wash. State. I won't go into all the details but God further confirmed that calling and so after He equipped us to go, we packed up our then 3 young children and went cross country with nothing but what He gave for the journey and the trust we had in Him and His calling. Now we assumed because of what He was teaching us that what He wanted was for us to plant a church and so we went with that in mind. Long story made real short...we experienced a lot of things during that challenge to our faith. We were homeless for a season, talked to many people, shared Christ with the homeless, etc. what never happened was a church plant. In fact, we had to come back to Ohio before we even found a church to be part of (started or attending or pastoring) As we came back home what we discovered was that our calling was absolute what wasn't clear was the purpose for going. IOW's our going was NOT to plant a church that was just our assumption. Our purpose was for both our own growth in faith and a challenge to others to step out and go where God calls no matter the cost.

If I understand you correctly this is the type of thing you are saying. God orders our steps which is straight out of scripture but we can go the long way or short way of getting there based on our own will and understanding at the time? Of course there is a little more to the story than just the past but if I am understanding you that story illustrates the path part of what you are saying.

Hopefully I answered that question without making things confusing.



I'm sorry If I came off as attacking you. It wasn't something I intentionally.

all good at least now we are communicating some.

Again, I apologize if I felt as though I was attacking you, that was not my intention. But I do agree about praying for wisdom regarding that matter.




Perhaps we'll save this for another time. I realize I do this a lot, where I don't make my points very clear.



Praise the Lord! Amazing story!



Wait.... You're a girl . Lol, I need to stop doing that. I've done that a few times now

lol...personally I don't mind but I do know some people do...In Christ there is neither male or female so I guess I just look at it as kinship in general