razzelflabben said: ↑
this makes it sound like you believe that spiritual healing and obedience trumps physical healing and yet the teaching in question does not speak about this as truth.
I said, "I'm not sure what all you mean by this."
I have no idea how to make it clearer it's pretty clear what I mean.
Obviously it isn't true that you "have no idea how to make it clearer". Your post here is making it a little more clear to me what you meant.
I don't mind if you just say that you don't want to answer the question. It's certainly better than just rehashing all of this unrelated stuff....the question if you remember was about asking for something that is not spiritually good for us. Yet the teaching says if we ask for it it is ours so if we ask for something sinful and we receive it because the teaching says we do then spiritual healing has NOT happened...that is the point. The teaching as given removes from our understanding spiritual healing and God's will and purpose for our lives. Your words seemed to indicate that if we ask for something that would hurt us spiritually we wouldn't receive it yet here you are trying to argue that we would receive it....it's so confusing and instead of answering the questions every teacher of this doctrine I have so far been privileged to talk to does exactly as you are doing here and avoiding even trying to answer the question which makes me wonder why?
I not only addressed the question. I have commented on the subject at length to you and to others here in this thread alone.
God, the author and perfecter of our faith, sees to it that we do not have faith to receive what has been shown in His Word to be against His will. I believe in the total sovereignty of God in
all things as well as His predestining all thing which happen in His creation - including prayers and their positive answers and their refusals.
Read my posts on the subject. I just don't want to nor do I intend to repeat myself for each and every person who trots out a straw man to kick around.
what the thorn was has no bearing on the question at all. No matter what the thorn was, Paul asked for it to be removed...did he lack faith the reason that it was not removed as per his asking in faith believing? That is the question. Trying to argue what the thorn was is totally evading the question and not something I am willing to do.
It's evading nothing. It's part of addressing the questions you have.
I said I wouldn't repeat myself again and again. But I will this one time at least.
Paul was told the reason for the thorn (what ever it was). He was told that it was from God and he was told the reason for God's giving it to him.
It not that he lacked faith - although he may have. He asked amiss - asking for something which God had already said was not His will. We have been assured that such a prayer will not be answered in the affirmative.
Regarding my comments about predestination, you said the following.
not sure how that comes into the question I am asking of your ideas, but okay...
Read my posts as I have suggested and you will have no trouble knowing how it comes into the question.
exactly...it was God's will trumping Paul's prayer of faith...unless of course you want to try to argue that Paul didn't have enough faith for His prayer to be answered as he asked....but that is the question being asked now isn't it and you refuse to answer the question. why did Paul not receive what he asked for in prayer believing? Do you really believe he lacked faith?
Please read my posts and quit asking the same questions again and again. - which I have answered to you and elsewhere.
My entire perspective and I have been clear about it is that God's will trumps our prayers and when we pray in His name we are praying for His will to be done.
As has mine. So I must ask in all sincerity, what's your problem? Have you even read my posts?
I am sure that over the centuries Paul was not the only person who needed to learn something from suffering. REAL FAITH IS TRUSTING GOD NO MATTER WHAT HIS WILL FOR US IS.
Of course. And your point to me is what? Did I say something which made you think I would not agree?
our prayers should always be, "nevertheless not my will but thine be done."
That should always be our attitude. But if God has already spoken on a subject - we already know His will and should prayer accordingly.
There's nothing wrong with asking if there is any way that a prayer of faith can be granted which will not involve violating His will. Jesus did that.
But when it becomes clear that God's will is only one way - there is not need to say something different to the mountain and "claim it" expecting it to be done. That's what Jesus did and that's what we should do.
I hold the same position as you on this concept and I have no idea why you are telling me these things - unless, of course, you simply haven't read my posts.
Let me tell you a quick little story. We were living in a very difficult place. For years and years we prayed for God to deliver us and we absolutely had faith to believe that He would and everyday expected that deliverance but years went by and we were not delivered. One day I heard of a woman and her child that needed to move and was asking for prayer that they move. So I began to pray that they would move. As I prayed God asked me what I would give for them to move. I replied, why should I give anything since YOU are big enough to move them without my sacrifice. Again God said to me...what are you willing to give, would you be willing to stay where you are for this one to be able to move. Again I argued with God...we both can move, because YOU are that big. Again God spoke...I can but I am asking you what you are willing to give. Eventually I agreed that I would stay in our situation willingly if God would move them. Within the week the other family moved and we lived in our situation a while longer.
The point of the story is this. God had something to teach me and the lesson was that Love and the prayer of Love doesn't depend on me and what I desire but on Him and His grace and truth alone. The prayer of Love is one that is not based on pride but on humility. It is a prayer of Love that mirrors the Christ who said, yes I will die that they might Live.
Prayers of faith are prayers that transform our desires into His desires and in that discover that mountains do move, healing does happen, and grace abounds for all no matter what the immediate answer is.
Appropriate story.
You received God's will on the subject and it's good that you didn't keep praying against His will.
Paul did the same thing. He prayed and prayed and when he was reminded that it was not God's will but something else was he stopped praying.
Christ did not lack that trust/faith in fact, He was the epitome of that faith. He put complete and total trust in God and His promises and accepted that perfect will of the FAther as the Father promised.
He did not lack trust. But He did not have faith that He would be spared the cross. He couldn't have such faith because the Word of God said otherwise. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
If He had such faith (energized by what the Word expressed), He would have said to the mountain " ". But He said otherwise. He simply bowed His head and accepted exactly what the Word of God said on the matter.
His prayer was not one of "name it and claim it". It was simply a prayer which expressed the desires of His heart. Those desires were that He be somehow spared the thing to come and that God's will would be done in the matter. He never claimed anything wrongly. He did not ask amiss as did Paul and as do many others.
have you asked yourself if your laying hands on the person was done according to scripture? WE are told that if any are sick to call upon the elders which is all most of us think about but the rest of the teaching is to confess one to another. Have you prayed in faith for the sick after a time of confession both of the sick and of you/elders doing the praying? Just a thought for what it's worth. Obedience is important to God after all.
Of course I have. How could I be the "student of faith and answered prayer" that I am and not done those things?
my careful study leaves me with something different and I want to know if I am missing something...
If your study leaves you to attack a person for simply quoting what the Lord said on the subject of "name it and claim it" then you need to study a bit more IMO.
There is nothing wrong with examining why there seem to be exceptions to what the Lord clearly said. We should do that.
But if the automatic trotting out of those exceptions leads us to effectively reject the clear teaching of the Lord we have gone astray IMO.
That's what has happened here. I have simply repeated what the scriptures say.
Immediately out come the explanations as to why it is wrong to take it literally. Even detailed explanations by me as to how it fits together are ignored and I am lumped together with the bad evangelist of the month by some.
The Lord will not find faith on the earth so long as people refuse to step out in faith and claim what the scriptures provide for us and even make excuses as to why it is wrong to do so.
What you seem to be "missing" IMO is a positive affirmation of the promises of the scriptures regarding praying with authority. Positive affirmations have apparently been replaced by automatic concentration on statements as to why we can't pray with authority.
wow...what do you think faith is? Seriously...I'm not playing a game in trying to understand what you are trying to claim here...what exactly do you think faith is? Where do you get this understanding of what faith is?
Faith is the "assurance" of things hoped for and the certainty of things not seen.
If many here have their way in discussions like this - they will make sure that there is no assurance and certainty at all in prayer. The result will be that the "faith" the Lord so longs for us to have will be lacking.
I don't understand what you are talking about here...if it is in scripture it should be taught at least that is where I stand. If we want to discard all the positive or negative we aren't teaching all of Christ.
I was talking about what I just said. We need to affirm what the scriptures say about praying with authority before we undermine faith by trotting out supposed reasons why we shouldn't pray that way.
He also says to seek Him and His kingdom first and all these things will be given to us because He knows what we need before we even ask....seems to me we should be focused on seeking after God and His will over the things He already has given we just haven't received yet. Seems to me that trusting His promises is faith...
Seeking His kingdom involves laying hold of kingdom authority.
When God has spoken, we need to step out in faith and speak to the mountains.
We will never take the kingdom by force by trotting out reasons why it's wrong to speak to mountains.
P.S.
I simply can't do any more of these long drawn out discussions.
If you have a particular question for me as to what I believe and why - please ask one at a time and I will answer short and sweet.
But please read my posts first. I have addressed many of your concerns already and don't have the time to do it again and again.
). Yes, the Bible says, "whatsoever I desire," but your motives also play a part in it was well; but "whatsoever" doesn't include sin. Sin goes against God's will. But with that question, I hope you are not insinuating that asking for material possession, or finances is a sin, otherwise God would be breaking his own rules by blessing me and my family with the material possession we ask for, and finances we ask for. Yes, many people do pray for stuff with wrong motives, and with the wrong heart. They want financial increase so that they don't have to work ever again, and so they can sit on their butts all day and watch TV. Or they pray for finances with only themselves in mind (meet all their wants and needs). but there is nothing wrong with asking for stuff
