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Featured If Jesus took the punishment for all sinners, why doesn't he go to Hell?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by 7bjoern7, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Please continue reading because Christ goes on to say. I do not pray for them only but for those who will believe in me by their word.

    I agree there are only 24 elders but those who have a part in the first resurrection are all those who have believed in him and have already passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation
     
  2. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    If God's elect are his first fruits, then what of the rest of the harvest? Why would the be called the first fruits if they are the only fruits?
     
  3. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Satan is in the world. Those troubles and trials ARE BECAUSE Satan is in the world.

    God isn’t judging us. He isn’t sending the trials and tests of our faith.

    But he does, During these “sightings” expect us to remain steadfast in our faith in Christ. REGARDLESS of these trials.
     
  4. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    These are the Jews and all those who come in at the last hour who WILL suffer for the name during g the trials and tribulations which will come upon the earth in the last hours. This is like the parable of the workers. These will be the last to come in but will be the first fruits. Because they will attain to (as Paul also states somewhere) a better resurrection

    Those who have believed have past from death to life but as 1 Corinthian 15 further points out there are levels of “glory” for lack of another word.

    Also in revelation there are those referred to as “those who are blessed who died in the lord from now on...That their works will proceed them”.

    Their works, sir. Is they remained faithful even when tested to the trials which were to death because “they did not love their lives even to the death but held to”. their testimony.

    Of CHRIST
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    There are 2 deaths, the first and the 2nd. There are also 2 resurrections.
    Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    The resurrection of life is when Jesus comes for the saved. The 2nd is the resurrection of the wicked unto judgement.
     
  6. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    It reminds me of Old Testament scripture, where the Israelites are commanded to give God their first fruits. The first fruits are those that belong to God. God takes the first fruits and leaves the rest. I believe that's how the Christians of earliest Christianity would have understood it, during a time when the Old Testament was their only testament.
     
  7. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    It is a parable. Some take it literally. I do not.
     
  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    The word "Gehenna" is for the word "hell." Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem (refuse dump). Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. This provided vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies-a picture/symbolic of total destruction. Symbolic because it certainly does not continue to burn today.

    Gehenna - Wikipedia
     
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Given that the scripture we have was written in Greek while Jesus would have spoken to His audience in Aramaic, that Greek scripture puts both Hades and Gehenna into the mouth of Jesus, which means He used the two different concepts in different contexts to denote two different concepts: The grave as a temporary holding place is one concept, and eternal destruction is the other concept. And by "eternal destruction" I'm not personally concerned whether that means "eternally in the process of being destroyed" or "once and done forever destruction"--both seem like bad new to me, with neither being in the slightest way preferable.

    Most modern translations seem to use "hellfire" consistently where the Greek used the non-Greek "Gehenna."
     
  10. 7bjoern7

    7bjoern7 New Member

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    Thanks for all responses.
    There wasn't an answer explaining satisfyingly(to me) explained why Jesus will not suffer in hell for eternity if there is eternal torment for lost souls.

    But i got reminded, that Jesus just forgave sins when he was alive. "Your sins are forgiven". How is that possible without him crucified, yet? We even have authority to forgive sins ourselves.
    John 20,23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    So there is a whole new aspect of the law system for me that i will dig in. I will trust the spirit more than scripture or men; why not trust men is obvious, why i don't perfectly trust scripture? Because translations might be manipulated. E.g. "Jakob 1,13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God[...]" "Mt6,13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil[...]"
    But thats my own journey. The disciples didn't have a new testament, there for it must be optional for salvation.

    To sin against an eternal God means eternal punishment made sense to me. However, Jesus would have to suffer eternally then. How is it possible for anyone to become happy, when you know that somewhere billions suffer immeasurable pain?
     
  11. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    Hades is the word translated as hell in that passage. Jesus describes hades as tormenting fire in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I’m going to believe what Jesus taught, thanks.
     
  12. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    I agree, they are two different concepts. However, older translations will place "hell" where it should be properly the "grave," since they were terms used interchangeably in the past. That is annoying. "Jesus descended to hell" in the creeds should be rendered "grave," that's how I've understood it, because that was what was meant.
     
  13. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    Well, you have to remember that Jesus isn't your pal Joe down the street; he's God incarnate. This means that his blood has infinite value, exceeding what you could ever offer to God if you were pure. Since he was perfectly God and perfectly man, he was able to satisfy the legal demands of the law in full measure without having to suffer the same duration as us. Jesus is different than me and you.
     
  14. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    What you write is true, but only partially true. I was taught the same in seminary and as a result believed for a long time that only some believe and the vast majority of humankind will not believe and thus remain unsaved for eternity suffering torment in the lake of fire forever. With such devastating consequences, one must ask is that really true? Does Scripture itself really teach that? After all, since the gospel is the Good News how can the Good News be the good news when in fact the majority of humankind end up in the lake of fire? Wouldn't that in actuality then make the gospel the bad news?

    Those persons in this life who do not genuinely trust and obey Jesus as their Savior end up in the lake of fire but they do not stay there forever. Those who do not apply the preaching of the cross to take up their crosses to follow Him and thus die to themselves in this life (first death) will be forced to die to themselves in the lake of fire (second death) having to experience the chastening fires of hell before eventually becoming reconciled to God.

    God's stated purpose for his creation is found in Col 1:20 "and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross."
    The eternal punishment model of hell does not align itself with this scripture since those in the lake of fire are tormented forever and are never reconciled with God. Since scripture cannot contradict scripture it then appears that something is amiss here. For a more detailed explanation, see my post #105 if you wish and if you have more questions I will try to answer.
     
  15. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Well, it should remind you of that, because that's what it's talking about. Show me a farmer that keeps only the first fruits, and throws the rest away.
     
  16. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    The Jews are God's elect, not the physical Jews, but those who are true Jews, ie, those who are Jews in spirit.
     
  17. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    Brother, what about Revelation 20:14?

    Do you see Hades as a intermediate place between death and the resurrection, or do you have an alternative view of the lake of fire?
     
  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus didn't take your punishment. That's a doctrine that came out of the Reformation. Jesus died for sins as a Ransom. The Scriptures say that the wages of sin is death and that's what the man gets, death. The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, or burning in hell for eternity is NOT what the Scriptures teach. This is a doctrine that has morphed over time. The Scriptures teach that when a man dies, he is dead. He remains dead until the resurrection. At the judgment he will either receive eternal life or be cast into the Lake of Fire and burned up. He dies.
     
  19. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    of course they aren’t just physically Jewish

    Can I ask you where you place the believing church during the beginning or mid point of the period of tribulation

    Do you believe in the rapture?

    And as well, the rebuilding (by the physical Jews) of the temple.
     
  20. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    The reason I ask this is because the elect, those coming in at the last hour, are those who will believe during the time “when He who holds all things back is taken out of the way”.

    The church will be gone, many martyred, and what will be left to harvest will be many physical Jews who will either turn to Christ (at the last hour) and be saved or not and will be lost

    Those whom God will put a mark on just prior to judgement being poured out upon the earth are the elect

    That judgement will come because HE who holds all things back will no longer hold things back

    Then Satan and evil will have full reign

    Those whom GOD has marked will understand

    Those who aren’t marked, won’t

    The elect will be those who come in at the last hour and during the last half of the time of tribulation
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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