If Jesus took the punishment for all sinners, why doesn't he go to Hell?

mmksparbud

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You are being too literal. Jesus told the story and in it the rich man died and was not annihilated. This part we can take literally.

What is your interpretation of Mark 9:44?


So you take parts literally others not--depends on what you believe. I simply prefer to reconcile all verses to what the whole bible says and to the very character of God.
As for Mark 9:44--same thing. I do not believe that God grants eternal life to worms and fire. An "unquenchable fire" is simply one that you can't put out. Like a forest fire that is out of control, or a building--it will only go out when there is nothing left to burn. Where the worm doesn't die is a figure of speech. It is taken from Isa. 66:24.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
This is also talking about "carcasses," that is dead people.
 
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mmksparbud

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Matthew 25:41


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It is prepared for them---but the followers of Satan go up against the kingdom of God and are devoured by His fire.

You also might want to keep this interesting point in mind.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.


Exo_24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Isa_29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa_30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa_30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

To be in the presence of God is to be in His devouring fire---and not be consumed---that is the privilege of the saved---like the burning bush.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Consider the following:

1. The weight of sin.
Sin merits eternal damnation on account of being most severe in nature, in that all sin is a rebellion and rejection of God. Sin can be understood as man crowning himself "god", which is an incomprehensible evil.

2. The life of Christ.
Christ did not only suffer on the cross but throughout his whole life. He was perfectly obedient to the Law, which is impossible for man. He was tempted, rejected, mocked, tormented and finally horribly killed.

3. Eternal damnation.
Eternal damnation, in short, is being thrown out of God's presence. This is why it is supremely grim and painful. There will be no goodness, kindness, mercy or love, for all these things come only from God. It is a total separation from God's glory and all that is good, for only God is good and the source of all that is good. If we reject God, we reject what is good, and we instead love and embrace evil, which is why eternal damnation is just and perfectly in accordance with God's kindness and righteousness. It is because God is good that He punishes evil.

4. Sin is an impossible debt for man.
No man can ever hope to pay his way out of hell - it is too high a price, too high an offence, and even if man could pay and labour for an eternity, it would never be enough to pay the wages of sin. If we cannot even pay for one single life, consider (1) the burden of Christ who truly took upon himself all the sins of the whole world throughout all time. And (2) how mighty Christ is to overcome it, even to conquer Satan, hell and death, and to redeem all!

5. The suffering of Christ.
We should not understand the suffering of Christ as a reduced sentence by virtue of being God, or as purely suffering or dying in the flesh, nor as some abstract spiritual suffering, but that he truly did suffer the sins of all of mankind in full. When Christ cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", he is not just quoting Psalms, but truly suffered the full wrath of God due all mankind - and still lived. This is what makes the cross so great because it testifies to God's righteous judgment of sin, His mercy and lovingkindness for giving us Christ, His only Son, the burden of epic proportions that Christ had to bear, and the incomprehensible glory and might of Christ to overcome death.
 
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AvgJoe

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That explanation makes no sense. Can one not say that an infinite God is one that also has infinite mercy? A finite lifetime of sin that results in infinite torment in hell is not justice by any standard of measure.

Question: "How is an eternity in hell a just punishment for only a human lifetime of sin?"

Answer:
The Bible says that hell is eternal (Matthew 25:46). Many people struggle with the justice of that. They question how it is just for God to punish a person for eternity in response to only a human lifetime of 70, 80, 90, or even 100 years of sin. How does a sinner’s finite lifespan merit an infinitely long punishment?

There are two biblical principles that clearly declare eternity in hell to be the just punishment for sin, no matter how long one’s earthly life lasted.

First, the Bible declares that all sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4). The extent of the punishment depends, in part, on the target of the crime. In a human court of law, a physical assault against an individual will usually result in a fine and possibly some time in jail. In contrast, a physical assault against the president or prime minister of a country will likely result in a lifetime in prison. And this is the case despite the fact that the crime was a one-time offense, not a continual, ongoing action. God is infinitely higher and greater than any human being. How much more are our crimes worthy of a great punishment in light of the fact that our sins are against God (Romans 6:23)?

Second, the idea that we cease sinning after death is not taught in the Bible. Are those who go to hell suddenly sinless and perfect? No. Those who go into eternity without Christ will be confirmed in their wickedness. The hard-hearted will be eternally hard-hearted. There will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in hell (Matthew 25:30), but no repentance. Sinners in hell will be given over to their own nature; they will be sin-infected, evil, immoral, and depraved beings for all of eternity, forever unredeemed and unregenerate. The lake of fire will be a place of eternal rebellion against God—even as that rebellion is judged (Revelation 20:14–15; cf. Revelation 16:9, 11). Unsaved people do not only sin for 70, 80, 90, or 100 years. They sin for eternity.

What it comes down to is this—if a person wants to be separated from God for eternity, God will grant that desire. Believers are those who say to God, “Your will be done.” Unbelievers are those to whom God says, “Your will be done.” The will of the unsaved is to reject salvation through Jesus Christ and remain in sin; God will honor that decision, and its consequences, for eternity.

www.gotquestions.org/eternity-hell-just.html

God's stated purpose is found in Col 1:20 "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens."
Neither the eternal torment or the annihilation model of justice fits with Col 1:20 since those in eternal torment are never reconciled to God and those who are extinguished/annihilated are never reconciled to God either.

It sounds like you are referring to universal reconciliation/salvation. Universalism, in all of it's forms, is unbiblical. In Colossians 1:20, concerning people, the reconciliation is contingent on our response, it is contingent on receiving the gospel, as stated in verse 23 “if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel”.

Neither does universalism fit with what Jesus or Paul or John say elsewhere in Scripture.
  • Jesus says that there are some who “will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
  • Paul said there are some who “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
  • John says of these that “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever” (Revelation 14:11).
 
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So you take parts literally others not--depends on what you believe.

Jesus would not have told the story the way He told it if annihilationism were true, since annihilationism simply cannot be extrapolated from this story, only the exact opposite. Reading Luke 16:27-28 we see the rich man pleading with Abraham to warn his family so that they may not come to the place he now resides.
 
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mmksparbud

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Jesus would not have told the story the way He told it if annihilationism were true, since annihilationism simply cannot be extrapolated from this story, only the exact opposite. Reading Luke 16:27-28 we see the rich man pleading with Abraham to warn his family so that they may not come to the place he now resides.


Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Not that they do. This was not a dissertation on the state of the dead it was to the Pharisees for their covetousness and unbelief.

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him
 
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Not that they do. This was not a dissertation on the state of the dead it was to the Pharisees for their covetousness and unbelief.

Was Jesus not telling them what the end of all their covetousness and unbelief would be through this story?

Well, I tried.

Also a side note about the "worm" I dont believe it means an actual earthworm type worm. But "wyrm" or another word for the immaterial soul. Their soul dieth not. Something to consider.
 
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mmksparbud

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Was Jesus not telling them what the end of all their covetousness and unbelief would be through this story?

Well, I tried.

Also a side note about the "worm" I dont believe it means an actual earthworm type worm. But "wyrm" or another word for the immaterial soul. Their soul dieth not. Something to consider.

Yes, you tried!
Noun
Wyrm
  1. (mythology) A huge limbless and wingless serpent
  2. (fantasy) A vague term, but it usually refers to huge limbless and wingless serpents
  3. (synonym) A sea serpent
 
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Yes, you tried!
Noun
Wyrm

Here's the thing, if we read Mark 9:44 it states in many versions "their worm"

Meaning the "worm" is something that belongs to the person.

What is the one thing we can take with is when we die? Only the soul.

Therefore, the "worm" indicates "soul"
 
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mmksparbud

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Here's the thing, if we read Mark 9:44 it states in many versions "their worm"

Meaning the "worm" is something that belongs to the person.

What is the one thing we can take with is when we die? Only the soul.

Therefore, the "worm" indicates "soul"

We take our character--which has been transformed to that of Jesus. Why would you want anyone to burn forever? What if that is someone you love? I have a brother that died a drug addict, died shooting up. Highly unlikely he died saved. I loved him. I know he did evil in this life--he will face God and have to pay for all his sins---but the thought of him burning forever would kill me. He deserves to pay for what he did---but really---forever? He suffered in this life also. And what about the Jews? They burned already, now they have to burn forever again for not accepting Jesus? At least with Hitler, there was an end to their torment---with your God---there is no end. That is not the God of the bible. He is justice. That demands a payment for what we do--burning forever is not justice--it is not the character of God.

The worm does not indicate anything but a worm. It is their worm because it is devouring their carcass---however, worms eat dead flesh, not living flesh. And still---no one has given a verse that states the wicked are given eternal life.
 
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mmksparbud

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Here's the thing, if we read Mark 9:44 it states in many versions "their worm"

Meaning the "worm" is something that belongs to the person.

What is the one thing we can take with is when we die? Only the soul.

Therefore, the "worm" indicates "soul"


You know--it also says this:

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

So you really think that God and His angels have nothing better to do during all eternity but to sit and watch sinners writhing in torment? It says Jesus is going to be busy with us--He will be the light of the remade earth. Not the sitting there watching sinner burning----"Gabriel, pass the popcorn!"

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

He doesn't want anyone to die, He takes no pleasure in their death, yet He is to sit and watch them writhe in agony forever?? I don't think so. He couldn't do that even with Satan. This was His highest angel, beautiful in every way, He had taken pride in him and showered him with precious jewels, loved him. He will pay for what he has done. But in the end, all sin will be destroyed, and he is the originator of it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The punishment for sin is spiritual death. We will all suffer physical death, we already know this.

Jesus did suffer separation from his father on the cross, that's why he cried out, "Father,why have you forsaken me?".

The point wasn't for Jesus to stay dead, but to free us by his resurrection. You now have the opportunity for eternal life with Him, praise God!

That interpretation doesn't hold water. There is nothing in the text to suggest the Lord was ever separate from His Father. The Son was never, is never, separate from the Father because the Son is one with the Father in the unity of their Being.

First and foremost Christ was quoting a Psalm. Beyond that the most that could be said is that Christ, seeing as He was human, experienced the same fears and troubles we do; the same reason why He sweat blood and prayed that if it be possible that this cup of suffering be taken from Him. But what it never can mean is that Christ was separate from the Father. Because He is God, the very Son of the Father from before all ages.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Here's the thing, if we read Mark 9:44 it states in many versions "their worm"

Meaning the "worm" is something that belongs to the person.

What is the one thing we can take with is when we die? Only the soul.

Therefore, the "worm" indicates "soul"

The word here is most likely a literal worm. Not that there are literal worms in Gehenna, but that the language refers to literal worms; it is a death reference, worms are part of the decaying process. The language employed to describe Gehenna is full of death language: fire, darkness, and worms. The term "Gehenna" is taken from an actual geographic location, the Hinnom Valley (Ge-Hinnom in Hebrew means "Valley of Hinnom"). It was this valley where the cult of Molech worship took place, where children were sacrificed to the Molech by being literally cooked alive by a hot, stoked fire. It was also used later on as a dumping ground for refuse.

In the common Jewish perspective from Jesus' time the common pit of the dead, She'ol ("Hades" in Greek) was divided into two, a place for the righteous dead known as Gan-Eden ("Garden of Eden", also called "Paradeisos" in Greek, a word of Persian origin borrowed by the Greeks that means "garden" or "park", i.e. "Paradise"); and a place for the wicked dead called Ge-Hinnom, which has been described already. In other words in common Jewish thought language and referent from Eden and the Hinnom Valley are used to describe the state of the dead, either the righteous dead in Paradise or the wicked dead in Gehenna.

She'ol was a kind of holding-cell for the dead until the resurrection. The righteous would experience a foretaste of the World to Come, while the wicked would experience a foretaste of judgment--Jewish sources and opinions on Gehenna are mixed, namely on the length of time one spent there; ranging from as little as one year, or even forever. So Jesus uses this language of death--of fire, darkness, and worms--to describe the state of the wicked dead. It's not that they are literally being cooked, or that it's literally dark, or that there are literally worms; it's that theirs is a state of death and decay. This language of death is also used elsewhere when St. John the Revelator describes the "lake of fire and sulfur", he calls it "the second death" where even death and Hades are cast into it. All of this is death-beyond-death, it's not annihilation; but it is something massively far removed from life that "death" is the only word that could be used.

Full disclosure:

I don't believe in eternal conscious torment.
I don't believe in annihilation.
I don't believe in universalism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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friend of

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I don't believe in eternal conscious torment.
I don't believe in annihilation.
I don't believe in universalism.

Do you think that holding all three simultaneously is not a contradiction? :S
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do you think that holding all three simultaneously is not a contradiction? :S

Fundamentally all I mean is that I avoid being dogmatic about such a nebulous topic.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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martymonster

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The Father never created a hell or planned on anyone being separated from him forever. His plan is this "Let us make man in our image" That is why the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Now why would the lamb be slain from the foundation of the world, unless he had a plan?
 
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........................ If Jesus took my punishment - hell for eternity - why then got he resurrected to sit on the throne? Even tho he was without sin... if he takes my punishment it must be the same punishment or not?
We shouldn't go beyond what is in the scriptures and we are only told so much.

But I am of the opinion that, although it played out in a few hours of time in our physical world, what went on (and is going on) within God Himself between Father and Son was somehow eternal.

I believe that somehow the Son is exalted to His rightful place on the throne forever, based on what He did in His physical life. I also believe that at the same time He is bearing the eternal punishment for all of the sins ever committed. And - you are right, the due penalty for those sins is eternal.

In Revelation 5 we see Jesus as both exalted Lion and slain lamb at the same "time" "within the throne of God".

I believe that somehow in the ages to come and in eternity we and all of creation will see Him ruling at His rightful place on the throne of God and us ruling somehow with Him with crowns He has purchased for us. But we cast those crowns at the feet of the Savior because we can somehow see Him at the same time standing as a Lamb and bearing our sins and the punishment we deserved.

Seeing clearly the price He paid for our redemption and our new position in God - we will cast our crowns and whatever glory we have been given at the feet of the Lion and the Lamb.

I don't claim to understand just how it will be. But those elements and more have been shown to us already in the scriptures and we need to somehow incorporate all of what we are told into our "theology" concerning these things - even though we can only comprehend it in a hazy manner from this side of the curtain.
 
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miknik5

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Then when a verse says destruction it means destruction, when it means death it means death. Death---the absence of life. The absence of living breath. Forever isz forever in your mind so Hannah gave her son to work in the temple forever.
Gen_44:32 For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.
Exo_21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Lev_25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
1Sa_2:32 And thou shalt see an enemy in my habitation, in all the wealth which God shall give Israel: and there shall not be an old man in thine house for ever.
ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is only the beast, the false prophet and the devil that are tormented "forever."
Revelation 20:15 does not agree with your statement above
 
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