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Featured If Jesus took the punishment for all sinners, why doesn't he go to Hell?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by 7bjoern7, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    That statement in bold regards the TRUTH of Christ and the witnessing of Christ to men in this life
    at some point the dead flesh should cease given that a worm needs some sort of host to feed off of.
    Yet “their worm” never dies
     
  2. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
     
  3. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    All? Only those whose names are found in the Book of Life shall rise to Eternal Life

    Those whose names are not found will rise to condemnation and ultimately be cast into the lake of fire

    Some already have a part in the first resurrection and have already passed from death to life
    But as john 5 says, at the finsl end, all will hear the voice of the Son of God but not all will rise to live
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  4. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Christ is the resurrection and life
    But not all believe this

    It’s why the gospel is preached now, so that those who believe may have life
     
  5. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Don't drink the kool-aid. Have you studied the subject for yourself? Do you think aion means eternity? Do you think its adjectival forms such as aionios and aionion mean everlasting/eternal? Perhaps you should heed the advice of G. Campbell Morgan, known as the prince of expositors who wrote:
    In passing, and in connection with the great theme which we are only touching upon, let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is - "unto the ages of the ages," which does not literally mean eternally. (God's Methods With Man; p 185-86)

    As support for your belief you cited Matt 25:46 which is probably the most widely cited text to disprove universalism. The great thing about this text is that it conveys the exact opposite meaning of those who use it as a proof text to support eternal punishment. This verse refers to the sheep-goat judgment - not the GWT judgment. Those in the sheep nations enter into ainion life during the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on the earth. The goat nations enter into aionion punishment. Since aionion life in the Millennium is by definition 1,000 years, it is impossible for aionion to mean eternal but instead refers to the age of time/millennium. Likewise, aionion punishment must also refer to the age of time instead of eternity. Thus the correct rendering of Matt 25:46 is "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (YLT)

    Your belief that eternal torment constitutes God's justice is fallible and I think unscriptural. Since I presume that you would acknowledge that God is just, is punishment the same thing as justice? We would both agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this case? I would submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime has to willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with his victim. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.


    I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is Biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.

    Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive punishment of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day, God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20).

    You cited Col 1:23 as your basis for arguing against v.21. V.23 does not at all affect the meaning of v.21. Reconciliation is indeed contingent on our response. We must continue in the faith as the word IF in this verse signifies a conditional clause and the real possibility that not all persons will continue in the faith. Those that don't continue/persevere in the faith by dying to themselves in this life (first death), end up in the lake of fire where the required response is dying to themselves in the lake of fire which is referred to as the second death, in order to bring about reconciliation with God as I referred to earlier.

    Regarding 2 Thess 1:9. This verse states that the punishment is eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord. Your notion that this means eternal separation/punishment from God is not supported by scripture based on the very fact that Jesus and the angels ARE PRESENT in the lake of fire according to Rev 14:10. How can the punishment in the LOF be eternal separation from God when Jesus himself is present in the LOF? "...they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb" (Rev 14:10).

    Regarding Rev 14:11, the phrase forever and ever is a mistranslation of eis aionas aionon. It literally means unto ages of ages which is certainly a very long age period of time but does not mean eternity.
    "and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name" (YLT).
    If you still somehow insist that this word must mean "eternal" then you must reconcile Jude 1:7 with your view. "...just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." Obviously, the fires in Sodom and Gomorrah have long ago been extinguished so aioniou in this verse cannot mean eternal.
     
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  6. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    So, which part of ALL do you not understand?
     
  7. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    The part in John 5

    Paul wrote to a believing body.
    If Paul meant those outside the body then there would be no need to preach the Gospel
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    The Apostle Paul in this passage employs the literary device of parallelism. He compares Adam's transgression to Christ's sacrifice. Since in Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL shall be made alive. Since Adam's sin brought death to all, Jesus' sacrifice must also bring life to all. All means all as there are no conditions or qualifiers attached to "all." Since there are no qualifiers attached to the results of Adam's transgression, there cannot be any qualifiers attached to results of Christ's sacrifice. Since Adam's sin applies to all men, Christ's sacrifice likewise applies to all men.
     
  9. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    But not all men accept the preaching of the cross. Therefore not all have passed from death to life. That’s why Jesus says for judgement I have come. Because not all have heard and believed the voice of God

    Some have

    But not all
     
  10. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Paul put the qualifier for all, when he said as in Adam. Everyone died in Adam, every last man, woman and child. That is the all. The all being made alive is not a different all, it's the same all.
     
  11. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    BTW, how exactly would last enemy be destroyed (which is death) if everyone is not made alive? Makes no sense!
     
  12. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    How come you don’t keep in mind that not all will suffer the second death.

    That already clearly indicates that some will suffer the second death

    Also. Those who believe now already have a part in the first resurrection. Those who die outside of Christ, have to wait just as John 5 clearly states
     
  13. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Not all have been made alive by Christ’s life giving spirit. If all are in Christ and made alive by His Spirit, then there would be no need to test the spirits
     
  14. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    If you think so---but that isn't what it says.
     
  15. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    It's only called the second death, because those who go through it, go through it in that order. Those who go through it now, don't need to go through it then.


    1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
    1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
    1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
    1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
    1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
    1Pe 4:17
    For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
    1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I don't happen to believe in immortal worms who feed on immortal spirits.

    1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Adam and Eve were not created immortal--just with the capacity for immortality as long as they had access to the tree of life.

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    We get that tree back.
    Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
     
  17. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Please explain why Christ prays for only those whom the father has given him out of the world?
     
  18. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    This is in regards to trials and the testing of our faith so that our faith ( directed in Christ alone)more precious than gold will prove genuine

    Resulting in His glory
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  19. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Those are his elect, who he uses to usher in the rest of mankind.


    Oba 1:19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
    Oba 1:20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.
    Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
     
  20. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    That's what judgement is all about. Why would there be one judgment now, but a different one later? The achieve the same thing.
     
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