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Featured If Jesus took the punishment for all sinners, why doesn't he go to Hell?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by 7bjoern7, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    The temple will be built
    Many Christians who understand christ as THE FOUNDATION AND HEAD of The TRUE BODY/CHURCH will try to warn their older Jewish brothers that the building of an earthly temple is wrong


    And they will lose their lives because of it
     
  2. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    Hey brother,

    I believe that the Lake of Fire is the final destination for those in Hell. Currently the unsaved are in Hell, but once judged, they will be cast into the lake of fire.
     
  3. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    Wouldn't you think this will confuse people who want to know if we call Hell a separate place than the Lake of Fire?
     
  4. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    What will confuse people?
     
  5. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    Oh, saying that the final destination of the sinner is not Hell, but the Lake of Fire?

    I suppose it doesn't matter. I prefer to call the Lake of Fire (other than that name) the Valley of Hinnom (Gr. Gehenna). You can discard my reply.
     
  6. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    Well, brother, when I personally present the gospel, I show them Revelation 21:8 as the place where we all deserve to go. I call it hell because I don’t feel that it’s necessary to make the difference known when trying to get them to believe on Christ. That’s just me, though. Perhaps it confuses people who know there’s a difference, otherwise, I figure they will read the Bible for themselves and figure it out.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
     
  8. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
     
  9. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    The Bible says that death and hades will be cast into the lake of fire. So hades is a temporary holding place with the lake of fire the final destination for those whose names are not found in the book of life
     
  10. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Everlasting destruction---the destruction is permanent---not that the destructing never ends.
     
  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I thought he did
     
  12. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    I don't go in for church doctrine, I go purely by what scripture says. The tribulation is something that God's elect go through first, and it is inwardly, but all men must go through it either now or later, in the lake of fire.

    Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

    The story of Job, is all about what God's elect go through to enter into the kingdom of heaven, but it will also apply to every man, in his own order.

    Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


    1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
     
  13. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I was wondering if anyone actually answered your question? It seems to me like you are asking - Assuming God is fair to everyone; how does Jesus overcome an eternal punishment?

    (I think I may be able to answer your question.)

    Couple of things here:
    1 - You are correct. Eternal punishment is eternal punishment regardless of who is paying it!
    2 - If Jesus is not in hell; but reigning at the right hand of the Father; then..... how'd He get out?
    3 - How can Jesus tell someone their sin is forgiven before actually having atoned for it?

    All good valid questions and I also agree; it is inadequate to say "you need more faith" or "you're a finite human and you'll never understand so don't bother" yada, yada, yada, Yoda! (May "the Force" explain this to me!) LOL

    First off; this is how I consider how "time" and "eternity" gel together.

    Picture a sphere within endless space. With in that sphere is the created universe. The created universe consists of all the material world, carbon based life, non carbon based entities (angels, demons, Satan), what we call "hell" (or Sheol). The universe as it exists today has a distinct beginning and will have a distinct end. Time only exists in the created universe and time only goes in one direction.

    Outside of that sphere is God's application of eternity. Having no beginning and having no end. "From everlasting to everlasting." That is God's domain. He is omnipresent. He fills up the "space" of eternity as well as the space of the created universe. And yeah, that's a little hard for us to wrap our brains around because our experience is confined to the created universe. None the less; God is also all knowing, all powerful and immortal in HIS eternal existence. As soon as He entered the created order as a created entity He became "killable" and this is part of the reason as to how Jesus could die.

    Now looking at this sphere, where time only goes in one direction which resides within this all powerful eternal "space" of this entity (God) who has no beginning and no end. So being that entity that has no beginning and no end; He is able to interject Himself into this created universe at any point and in multiple points that He desires.

    Revelation 13:8 tells us Jesus is "the lamb slain from the foundations of the world". And how that is possible can be conceived upon if we understand the created universe exists within God's eternity. So not only does atonement take place inside of time; it also takes place outside of time in eternity. So this is how Jesus can say to a sinner: Your sins are forgiven; before that has actually happened within creation's time. See, we tend to look only at the box that we are in. We often don't see outside that box; because we are so confined to our own understanding of time as we exist in a created universe.

    So just like the atonement has establishment in both time and eternity; God's wrath only has "application" as it applies to the origin of creation. Prior to there being a created universe; the only entity that existed was God and God being without shadow of turning and wholly converged of the same purpose as a unified entity; there was no sin to be wrathful about; so obviously there was no wrath. (Are you following me? Does that make sense?)

    Now, let's define "the wrath of God". God is angry at sin. It offends Him because He knows it not. It's foreign to His existence. God can't disobey Himself. LOL. So because sin is evil and destructive is why He hates it. Yet God existed before His own wrath did; because God existed before sin did. So because there was an aspect of Jesus's personhood that is eternal (outside of time and outside of creation - He existed in that space outside the sphere). This is how He could overcome an "eternity" in hell. Because He is greater than an "eternity" that "begins" and only moves in one direction.

    And this is why not only is there a "hell" (or Sheol) in this life; there is a "lake of fire" in the next. There will be a recreated heavens and earth that over comes the corruption inherent in this current universe. And a lot of aspects that are present in this universe will not be in the next. There will be no time. There will be no death. There will be no sin. There will be no potential for corruption.

    Yet keep in mind that the new heavens and earth; though will be an incorruptible reflection of this endless sphere of eternity; never the less it is still a "created" thing. And why (ultimately) does that exist? Remember the verse "by him and for him were all things created...". Once the second person of the Trinity because part of the created world (and doing so was the only way HE could redeem it). That gave "creation" a certain type of permanence; because now God starting from incarnation moving all the way through the remainder of "eternity" now "required" a "space" to exist in. And this was the reason for redemption.

    Now the Scripture declares that "God is love". And the very witness of that is the fact that He would not have created a universe He knew to be fundamentally unredeemable. God is not only a loving entity; He's a practical one. LOL. There is no point; no glory in creating something you know you will only destroy in the end. That is not a display of love. That's tyranny.

    Now why are some redeemed when others are not? If you know the Scripture well enough to know that's ultimately the sovereign decree of God's will. But why doesn't He redeem everyone? He could have; but He doesn't. The Scripture tells us that all of what God does; springs forth from the base of what His character is (which is love); for the sake of His greater glory. Now this is a little hard to wrap our heads around as fallen creatures because we're inclined to scream "That's not fair." Yet if we truly acknowledge what we ALREADY know to be true (that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven....) we'd all be condemned. If we got what was "fair"; that would be the end result of all of us. We'd all be condemned.

    So to those who are redeemed; what is to God's greater glory? "Oh God, how nice of You to save all of us." or "The knowledge of what I know I deserve; is so overwhelming, that I don't have anything to say!" (God who am I to complain about what You decide when I deserve condemnation myself. And I know (and You know that I know) You did not have to come into this world to redeem any of us!) Do you recognize the difference between that reality and he who complains against God in his own constant rebellion?

    So what of those in the lake of fire on the other side of the recreated world? Some say they "remain there because they continue to sin"; yet if that was true; that would mean that fundamentally speaking - the new heavens and new earth would be corruptible and the evidence there of regarding that corruptibility would be the presence of sin. And this is why I don't see those in the lake of fire as "containing to sin for eternity" as a concept that would be Scripturally sound.

    Now the reality of someone being forsaken by God for all of "time" going "forward" is frankly something more horrendous that what I can wrap my brain around in this life. In the next life things will be different; including our perspective. Will the redeemed be aware of the condemned in the new heavens and new earth? I don't know if we actually have enough information to deduce that? We are given "pictures" of "heaven". Yet keep in mind that the place where deceased saints go now (called "heaven") is different than the new heavens and new earth will be. We actually have very little "descriptor" of the other side of eternity; other than we know no sin, no death, no corruption.

    So to answer your question; (if you have not already figured the answer out for yourself) Jesus over came eternal punishment and "got out of hell" because He as eternal God in human form, was greater than the sum of His parts. Wrath is not all of what God exists as. It's just a reaction to sin based off the attribute of being without sin.
     
  14. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Those belonging to Jesus will not be going through the lake of fire

    Job had to do with Satan, sir. Job, in error, initially attributed the “fire” he was going through as from God. It wasn’t. It was from
    Satan.

    Many will, in error blame/curse God for what should not be attributed tinGod

    In revelation, Jesus forewarns His church that satan will cast some of them in prison, and to be faithful even to the point of death

    Yes, We, the church, will go through tribulations but they are not from God


    Remember In job? God removed the “hedge”

    No different than what is said, not only in Thessalonians, but also in Daniel.

    During that time, when the “hedge” is removed, when “He who holds all things back is taken out of the way”, much tribulation will occur

    I don’t follow church doctrine either
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  15. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    What an interesting post!
     
  16. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    I also dont believe it was the lake of fire because Jesus did not go to the second death.
     
  17. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
    Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

     
  18. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    You know the whole of Job and so do I.

    Job also knew enough that He needed a mediator (Job9)

    You can’t quote a portion of job and disregard the whole of Job

    Remember, after God spoke to him, Job realized that he didn’t know God as well as he thought he did

    I don’t agree with your insinuation that God was to blame for the evil that befell Job

    The “hedge”of God’s protection was removed


    That is the reason behind WHY Job experienced what he experienced
     
  19. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Jobs wife also exhorted job to “curse God and die”

    Many will

    Just as Isaiah and revelation say
    because those who do not understand, will not repent, but will attribute to God what shouldn’t be attributed to THE FATHER OF LIGHT
     
  20. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Shadrach, meshach, and abednego were not cast into the fire by GOD

    But they remained faithful despite the fire

    The fiery trials in this world are not the same as the lake of fire.

    And fiery trials are not by the hand of God

    Yes He can allow certain trials in our life but they aren’t His doing. They are allowed for the purpose to strengthen us so that we will grow up into our faith and understand that in all things it is our faith directed correctly on Jesus Christ that is TRUE and HOLY FAITH.


    Just as Peter explains


    Also. Remember that Jesus told Peter that Satan desired to sift him as wheat.

    It was allowed so that his faith would be established in andvon Christ and so that Peter would be able to strengthen the brethren who, in trials, would become confused wondering what was going on
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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