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Featured God curses Christians

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by GirdYourLoins, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. Doulosiesou

    Doulosiesou Member

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    Yah we live in the midst of a cursed world, that hates us. But we are blessed by knowing Christ.
     
  2. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF

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    God does not curse Christians.
     
  3. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    That's great that you have a good relationship with God.
    I'm sure that nothing you said was a lie. I don't know why some people - even Christians - go through a lot of bad stuff and others seem to sail through life with almost no problems, but personally, I do not believe that God curses people.

    If someone hates God, continually hates God and refuses any attempt to read, or understand, what God is like; if bad stuff happens to them, I suppose it might seem like God is cursing them. (Although if they hate him, they may not care one way or the other.) But I believe that God created everyone in his image, and because of that, and other evidence in Scripture, I believe he loves everyone and wants them to turn to him and be saved. I think that even if someone gives up on God, he won't give up on them - though it will become harder and harder for the person concerned to hear his voice.
    Also, Jesus once said, "if you only love those who love you, what good is that?", Matthew 5:46. He told us to love our enemies and to be perfect as God is perfect, Matthew 5:48. This, and other verses, tell me that God is not selective in his love, saying "well if you don't love me, I won't love you."

    I don't know if any of this is any help, but I hope you find the answers you are looking for.
     
  4. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Response to post number 78 :
    Q1: Are you a true born again believer? If so, discuss your salvation experiences.
    Q2: What spiritual good works have you done after salvation?. We are judged by our fruit!
     
  5. discipler7

    discipler7 Well-Known Member

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    ACTS.5: = 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

    7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

    She said, “Yes, for so much.”

    9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    No doubt, Christians are not saved from hell by keeping God's Law or Moses Law, ie are saved by faith in Christ or by grace. But the willful breaking of the Law will rain God's curses upon such ignorant, misguided and unrepentant Christians and may cause them to be unsaved, eg Parable of the Sower, ie seeds that fell on the wayside and stony places.(MATTHEW.13)
    ... Some of them may curse God/Jesus and die = blasphemy against the Holy Spirit/God = unsaved.(eg JOB.2:9)
     
  6. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    The problem I've got with many talking about obedience is they mean compliance with the covenant given to Israel. Others mix morality in with it. Enoch, Noah and Abraham didn't have the law and found favor in God's sight. Apparently they weren't wicked and immoral in general behavior.
     
  7. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    The Christian isn't graft into Israel. The Christian is graft into the Root. This includes both Jew and Gentile, there being no distinction when it comes to redemption. Romans 11 will support my view.
     
  8. iwbswiaihl

    iwbswiaihl Newbie

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    But you are not a wicked one, run run run all u want :tutu:
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I see that to be the exception to the rule, at least judging from what I've seen here. The rule is most OSAS/faith only people will drop that bomb on anyone who says we have to be obedient in order to get to heaven. To them they are in, regardless of what they do or don't do and they use that as defense/to shift blame, when it very rarely applies.

    I've seen very few here argue we have to keep the old covenant to a tee, while legalism is often thrown around as a defense for "sin freely" salvation. It's just not the truth the way they use it, but then again, what would be the point of being truthful if it's not necessary?

    I'm glad you did not intend it that way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  10. iwbswiaihl

    iwbswiaihl Newbie

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    There is another point that we all have to keep in mind and that is suffering in conflict or whatever the situation is not to be though of as something unusual, Paul had a lot of that, Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me. Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Look at how Jesus suffered for our sake physically, not to mention that when taking on our sin debt He was separated from the Father for a span of time which is what I believe was the mental anguish that He suffered and somehow He was for the time paying the penalty for our sin debts. Here is a wonderful sermon by Sinclair Ferguson on the Holy Spirit if you would care to listen to it sometimes, it is very good on the work of the Holy Spirit interceding for us, when we cry Abba Father, the verb cry he says is like when some child is in great distress and cries out to their father, daddy, daddy, help me! About 40 minutes into this sermon which is on youtube if you care to listen, you will be blessed,
     
  11. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Where did Paul get that phrase "fulness of the gentiles"? Did he make it up? Not quite.

    We see that phrase in Genesis.

    Genesis 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

    Here we see God talking to Israel (Jacob), but if you look at the original hebrew, everywhere in that verse it says "nation(s)", the hebraic word, is goy. Which, is hebrew for gentile.

    Then, in Genesis 48:5 we see that Israel (Jacob) takes Ephraim and Manasseh as his own, so that they can be called by Israel. This is how Joseph got his double portion, and also why Ephraim and Manasseh are tribes in Israel, even though they aren't sons of Jacob. Because he took them to be considered his own.

    5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

    Why's this important? And what does it have to do with Paul saying fulness of the gentiles? Because, when Israel (Jacob) goes to bless Ephraim and Manasseh,

    Genesis 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed (Ephraim's seed) shall become a multitude of nations.

    That phrase "multitude of nations" in the original hebrew, is melo hagoyim. Which translates into english, as fulness of the gentiles. This is where Paul got that phrase from. Ephraim was brought in to Israel to be considered as part of Israel, and here we have two examples, the first by God Himself, and now, Israel (Jacob) simply repeating what he heard God say to him, that the the fulness of the gentiles, belongs to Ephraim, and Ephraim to Israel. Gentiles are grafted in by faith, into Ephraim, and Ephraim, is part of Israel, therefore, gentiles are grafted into Israel. We - as Paul said - do not replace Israel, we are grafted into Israel. Judah, are our older brothers, we do not in anyway shape or form replace Judah, but are grafted in with them. The root, is Jesus. No one is the root, no one is grafted into the root. The root is Jesus. We are the branches. This is why Jesus brought up us being branches, and that we had to bare fruit, if we don't, we'll be cut out just as those before us were that allowed us to be grafted in.
     
  12. iwbswiaihl

    iwbswiaihl Newbie

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    We are not grafted into Israel(Jacob) but into the true vine who is Jesus. Joseph's sons became 1/2 tribe each and took Joseph's place. Now by the same faith like Abraham we are children of promise like Israel. A good vine produces good fruit, we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. He produces the fruit of the Spirit in us. For(because) the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy Spirit who is given to us.
     
  13. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    I don't quite know how I want to approach your response. I think you've got two groups mixed together. I also wonder what forum you're reading. If it's only a few here telling others to keep the law for salvation, they sure make lots of noise. The issue seems to be a major driving force of the volume of posts unless you're playing in the recreation room. For the Christian much of what I see here is useless and destructive. I do see lots of religion being promoted.
    Think I pretty much addressed this above.
     
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  14. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    No because the singular form of the word goy is what is from him. This nation is Israel consisting of 12 tribes (groups). Israel isn't referred to as goy by anyone I know of. Yes Jews call all non Jews goy or goyim. We know or accept as fact Israel is a single nation descended from Jacob called Israel.

    The word "company" in your verse is qahal meaning assembly/congregation. I take this to mean the 12 tribes making the assembly of goy in this case is Israel only.

    I don't think you can show more than Israel descending from Jacob. This disallows other nations outside of Israel as we know them descending from Jacob (Israel).
    Ephraim and Manasseh is the split tribe of Joseph.
    No idea why melo is translated as multitude. It means fullness. As such it has nothing to do with groups. So I think what you're trying to do is say non Jews are descendants of Jacob. Just can't buy into that. Now if a Jew (Israeli) isn't circumcised they no longer are (Israeli) Jews. They lose both their nation and God. Ex 12
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  15. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    Goy - means gentile. And it's talking about what is from him, you're right. Goy were to be blessed, and were to come from his loins, but the blessing they were to receive, was to no longer be considered goy, but Israelites - God's children. No goy, is a child of God. Goy can become a child of God, but they have to become Israel. All throughout the bible, sheep, the elect, chosen, His children, wheat, etc, etc, these are terms that only ever talked about Israel. So, in order to be children of God, as Romans 11 points out, we as goy - the wild olive tree branches - must be grafted on to the good olive tree, and this by faith - faith in Jesus.

    Only Israel comes from Israel. This is why Israel claimed Ephraim and Manasseh for his own - so that what God said to him could be fulfilled. He understood that Ephraim's blessing, was to be a multitude of nations, which in english, means fullness of the gentiles. Why it was translated into multitude, I have no idea. Each translation has an agenda, which is why I'm learning to speak the original languages.

    Well, I mean biblically, goy refer to those who are not Israel. Goy, can become Israel, but only by repenting, and placing their faith in Jesus, as Paul in Romans 11 points out. The good olive tree is Israel, and we are grafted in by faith in the root, which is Jesus.

    You don't think I can show more than Israel descending from Jacob? What about all of the egyptians (who were goyim - gentiles) that were made Israel by coming out of Egypt with them?

    What about all of the times in the instructions God gave Moses, where He said that if a stranger (a gentile) wishes to become Israel, he is to be considered as one born in the land, an Israelite?

    Exodus 12:48 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

    Leviticus 19:34 -
    'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 24:22 -
    'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"

    All throughout the Torah (the first five books of the bible / Moses) God shows us that His chosen, are Israel. God also shows us, that anyone wishing to serve Him, Israelite and goy alike, are to become one. That, all a goy has to do, is to become circumcised. First of heart, then of flesh (if they wish to partake of the passover anyway). He shows us that all they had to do, was to desire to serve Him, and they'd be taken in. This is why Rahab was considered part of Israel as well. She's actually in the bloodline of the savior, and she wasn't even natural born Israel. Why? Because, by faith she was grafted in. By faith she was saved and left untouched while her native land was destroyed. By faith, she who was born a goyim, was made an Israelite. Such an Israelite, that she was made to be part of the lineage of our Savior - Jesus.

    In fact, the only reason we today don't believe that goy can be Israel, is because of the Jews shutting up this truth to us. They were punished for doing this, and still continue to do this. They have man-made laws that made it so goy cannot become Israel, even though, obviously, just with the story of Rahab, we see otherwise. Not even mentioning the many verses in Torah (the first five books of the bible) that have God saying exactly the opposite.

    In fact, you said that Israel, was only Jew. This isn't so. A Jew, comes from one of the 12 tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah. But, because as it was prophesied in Genesis 48, they have been the only ones to keep the law all this time. Making it seem, to us who live such short lives, as if this belief, and way of life is a Jewish thing. When it's not. All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. This is why two branches were joined (Judah, and Ephraim) The natural, and the unnatural. Being joined together. Judah, and Us, by faith. The fulness of the gentiles is coming, and this means that we are realizing that by faith, we are Israel, and we are starting to seek His ways, and to follow Him the ways He asks us to, apart from the traditions and lies we've inherited.

    This is why jews were said to be our enemies for the gospel's sake, because they don't want us coming back. This is what the parable of the prodigal son is about. We spent our inheritance in the pig pen, only to come to realize how foolish and lost we are, and we go to return to our Father, and He kills the fattened calf, which angers the older brother - Judah. I do believe that Jews today are just living out their part of God's story, and it's not that they're horrible people at all. Don't take it as me meaning that. They are just as much fallen to their traditions as we have been. God will be merciful to them, as well as to us, equally.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  16. Doulosiesou

    Doulosiesou Member

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    Yes rebirth from the Holy Spirit. Christ is first fruits, King of Kings and Lord of Lords and we of the Holy Spirit are Citizens in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Abraham's seed, the promise fulfilled in Christ.

    Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

    We the Body of Christ live in that Temple, it is our very life for eternity
     
  17. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Others and evidently yourself choose just to read that into the fact...like we think obedience is all that's required, which equates to legalism, when no one ever claimed that. They pretend we say, we can all just work our way into heaven when we all know perfectly well that isn't true. It's a lie, a trick, designed to deceive and make their opposition look bad to themselves because they need to constantly confirm false beliefs for themselves. It's blown way out of proportion by dwelling on the "works only" when it comes to understanding those who are only saying obedience is just part of it. Faith and works is what we teach...because it's biblical. Faith without works is dead.

    They take something a few Pharisees did and go bananas with it...use it falsely as a tool to justify not doing jack to be saved. They just "say" they believe and they are in...no walk the walk is necessary. Some feel they can continue to live in sin, in spite of the bible being more than clear on that, and they justify it with junk just like I mention.

    You see "lots of religion being promoted" because that's what you choose to see. Why? Because to see it as you do helps out with the "saved no matter what" theology/helps to substantiate it. And people need help believing such things because deep in side they know better. That need causes them to see justifications for it when they simply are not there.

    To make my point better...you say you see "lots" of religion being promoted, will you give me lots of examples of that please?
     
  18. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    Sorry but your reference to "goy" in Gen 35 isn't calling Israel gentiles represented by nation.
    True a "goy" can become a Jew. Christians do not. Not even Jews. They retain their ethnic heritage. Their covenant relationship changed with the institution of the new covenant. They like everyone else can only enter that covenant through Jesus. The Gospel of John make s this very clear.
    Egyptians aren't descendants of Jacob (Israel).
    These goyim were no longer goyim. Christians don't enter that covenant without subscribing to the requirements of your verse. There's nothing in the NT indicating the Christian becomes Israel. Eph 2 says the Christian becomes fellow citizens with the saints, not Israel. It further says salvation isn't achieved by works through the law. Romans says righteousness is without the law. In-other-words the law has nothing to do with salvation.
    Please note the requirements of this verse - "who resides with you." I don't reside with any Israeli nor do I live in Israel. That fact alone excludes me from obligation to the law.
    Again for the who? The verse implies living in the same general area. If one is a citizen of Israel living outside of Israel they are the stranger.
    The new covenant changes this. The Bible says: And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Hos 2:23.
    Look if you want to become technical, yes. Everyone who is a descendant of Jacob is referred to as a Jew in our day. We don't strictly reference the tribe of Judah which even in Jesus day included the tribe of Benjamin and some of Levi.
    No the Jews, specifically the Judaizer is out enemy for the sake of our salvation as Galataians points out.
     
  19. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation (גּי / גּוי - goy) and a company (קהל - company/assembly) of nations (גּי / גּוי - goy) shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

    Here He is referring to Israel, as we find out in the next verse:

    Genesis 35:12 - And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

    To whom did He promise to give the land? Israel. So we see, that the verse prior, referring to gentiles being from his seed, was in fact talking about them being Israel, and inheriting the land. That's literally the entire story of the gospel and what Jesus promised to us.

    True, this is technically true, yes. But, it's what I'm talking about. A goy can't only become a Jew. A goy can become an Israelite. There isn't just one tribe (made up of two tribes, and one partial - Levi - as you pointed out). There are 12 tribes, of which goy can become. Not only Judah.
    This is why those that were grafted out, were grafted out. Because they lost sight of the fact that God alone would justify them. All throughout the bible, we see a picture of salvation through faith alone, and when people lost this knowledge for their own vain traditions, God would cast them aside - e.g. graft them out.

    Egyptians aren't by blood no, you're right. But, by faith, God tells us in the bible that Egyptians were brought out of Egypt along with Israel, and became Israelites.

    In Exodus 12:37-38 we see that it wasn't just Israel that went up out of Egypt, but Egyptians as well -

    Exodus 12:37-38 - 37And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. 38And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

    This mixed multitude were Egyptians, and I'm assuming (this is an assumption) more than just Egyptians. Most likely ones of other ethnicities than just Egyptians. What's my point, well, this verse tells us that more than Israelites came up out of Egypt. That at the very least, Egyptians came with them. My point is, that from there on out, God only ever refers to them all as Israel. The only times He ever makes any distinction between Israel and Egyptians or Strangers, at all, is to command Israel to treat any stranger, or foreigner, or Egyptian as one who is born in Israel. In other words, as one who is Israel.

    2 Peter 3:15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.


    In verse 17, where it says the error of the wicked, it's the greek word ἄθεσμος, which means: lawless, that is, (by implication) criminal: - wicked.

    Peter is saying here that Paul is hard to understand, and that those who are unlearned in the scriptures (the OT was all they had for scriptures at this time) twist his words to their own destruction.

    What's my point? Because, Peter is warning that it seems as if Paul is teaching lawlessness, but he's not. Don't be led away with the "error of the wicked (aka, the lawless) into thinking that what Paul is teaching, is lawlessness. Because there's several examples of Paul doing and saying exactly the opposite.

    What do you do for when Paul was being targeted for Jews thinking he was teaching lawlessness, and Paul himself denies this. He even takes a Nazarite vow to prove that he wasn't teaching men to do away with the law. That, and he obeys sabbath (the 7th day sabbath) and teaches gentiles how to do feasts, he even kept the feasts. So either Paul is doing one thing and saying another, Paul is lying, Paul is contradicting himself, or you're misunderstanding him. 2 Peter chapter 3, says that a misunderstanding is probably at play here.

    If you aren't Israel, then this verse isn't talking about you. The entire book of Hosea, is only written to the house of Israel. So, either you're the house of Israel (which by faith in Jesus, you are), or you cannot use this verse to state your case, because the entire book of Hosea is only written in prophesy about the rejoining of the house of Israel.

    Even Jesus Himself said - Matthew 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    In context, this was referring to someone asking for Jesus to heal them. He said no, because He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. What then happened? The person demonstrated great faith in their words, and Jesus acknowledged them for this faith, and healed them - why? Because, by their faith they were accounted as a lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    The gospel, is the story of salvation. That's the point of the gospel, to preach salvation. They're synonymous.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  20. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    You're not paying attention and most likely need your version of truth to support your doctrine. It's simply undefendable. It doesn't really matter what is said you disagree with. You want to say Christians become Israel by accepting what Jesus provides. Even Jesus says no in Jn 10:16. I could respond to everything in your post. Hose a 2:23 is clearly not talking about Israel not being God's psople.
     
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