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Featured God curses Christians

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by GirdYourLoins, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    You mean you can't carry on a conversation. I didn't see a single thing about Hosea 2:23 in your posts you claim to discuss.

    bugkiller
     
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  2. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]
    Thank you.

    Well, the "within thy gates:" portion, referred to the fact that they were at that time, and were going to be living in the promised land. So, for as long as they were in that land, everything in the promised land was to be resting. Nothing was to be working, which means that they couldn't hire a slave or a servant to do a task they really want to get done, but wouldn't do themselves. So basically, it's saying, all, even your cattle are to rest. This rest is for everyone and everything. To reject it, is to first be at enmity against God - therefore not loving Him, and whoever you make work, you're not loving them, because that rest was for them as well.

    Above I did my best to give an answer for what I thought you were getting at, as well as giving a bit of insight into why He commanded it that way. There were people who early on after the Exodus would try to push the limits and bounds of what God found acceptable, because it wasn't yet written on their hearts. He was their Elohim, but He wasn't in their hearts as much as what He rescued them from was. This is why all throughout scripture, the men of great faith Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Abraham Isaac and Jacob, etc, are men that all loved God before even themselves in some cases. This is what it looks like and means, to have Him and His laws and statues written on your heart. To love Him, and to desire to serve Him above anything else. Not because you have to, no far from it. No one has to if they don't want to. I obey Him as best as I can not because I have to, because I want to. Will I be perfect in this obedience? No, I mean I'll slip up in some ways, but that's what Jesus gave Himself for. To cover where I am imperfect, and to give me the chance to rejoin His chosen.
     
  3. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    I know! And then he acts like we're the bad guys because we are genuinely confused by what he's even talking about. He did the same thing to me and I wasn't even talking to him, as if I'm going to remember and know instantly that he's referring to something I said 12 posts ago to an entirely different person, with next to no context about what he's talking about.
     
  4. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I just kept it yesterday.
     
  5. He Calls Me Friend

    He Calls Me Friend New Member

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    I think you misunderstand "curse" in the way it is often used in Scripture. I don't believe Scripture teaches that God deliberately "curses" those who "hate" him. In fact, the psalmists often complained that God prospered the wicked! And somewhere it says God sends the rain and sun on "good" and "bad" alike.

    When someone chooses to live their lives apart from God, they are choosing, by default, to align with the devil, with evil. And evil brings it's own curse. We reap what we sow. Or as the old saying goes, "When you play with fire, you get burned."

    The "curse" you feel you are subject to because of your dad's attitude towards God, is limited to how you let his attitude, or the fear of it, affect your thinking. Scripture is clear that God does not punish the son for the sins of the father, or vice versa.

    Eze 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Here is a promise for you whenever the devil tempts you to worry about your dad's "curse":

    Isa 263 - Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
     
  6. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    I for some reason quoted Hosea 14, don't know why. It is what it is though. The entire book of Hosea is only talking to the house of Israel though was my point, as sheep said Hosea 2 was talking about people who aren't Israel being saved.

    Out of context Hosea 2:23 looks like it's talking about people that aren't Israel, for sure, but my point was that Hosea is only talking to and about Israel. I'll prove my point now:

    Some context. This is God speaking with Hosea. Hosea is having children with Gomer his wife, and God is telling Hosea what to name his children, and the names are according to what He plans to do with Israel.

    Hosea 1:6-10 -
    6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

    7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

    8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

    9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

    10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

    So with the birth of the daughter of Hosea and his son, God said that He will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel, and that they are no longer His people, and He is no longer their God. Then, in Hosea 2 God actually tells Hosea to go to His children (Israel) and tell them of this.

    Hosea 2:1-2 -
    1 Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah.

    2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

    The mother being spoken of, is His bride. His bride, are the people of Israel. But, because of them worshipping other things, He cast them aside finally and ultimately this is why Jesus gave Himself for us. Because He was the Husband of Israel (both the northern and southern kingdoms, but at the time of this book - Hosea - it was only referring to Israel, since as He said in chapter 1, Judah remained in covenant with Him).

    According to God's own law, a Husband cannot put His wife away for any other reason other than the wife being unfaithful. In doing this, the husband can only put them away. No divorce was permitted. Jesus shows us that Moses did in fact allow divorces for this, to where the wife was free to re-marry, but this isn't how it was to be. God designed it so the woman would be put away, and cursed, for ever - or until the husband died. In this situation, God is the Husband though, and since the wife (Israel) was doomed to be cursed until God died, He came down to die to free Israel from that curse.

    My point, is that the verse in Hosea 2:23 it's talking about Israel being rejoined again to God. Sheep tried to say it was referring to people that weren't Israel, but in fact when you read it, the entire book of Hosea is talking about Israel.

    Just one chapter earlier, God tells us that Israel was to no longer be called His people. In fact, it uses the exact same wording that is used in Hosea 2:23. He divorced them, and said that He was to show them no more mercy or compassion, they were no longer His people. In the exact same order actually and even the same exact wording. All the verses from 2:1-2:23, talk about why He decided to divorce them. Israel constantly was doing this, and Judah did pretty much the same thing, but they were much better about remaining faithful. Where they slipped up, was more so obeying God a bit TOO much. Making man-made laws to keep from falling away, and even going as far as keeping people (gentiles) out of Israel that God on several occasions says displays that He wants to come in to become part of Israel. Which is why there's so many commands displaying this assimilation that He expected there to be between the natural blood Israelites and the strangers who decide to join and unite themselves to be Israel as well.
     
  7. He Calls Me Friend

    He Calls Me Friend New Member

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    Sheep Dog wrote:
    Could you explain then, please, what Paul means i Rom 11:24 - For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    I don't see any mention of "root" here, just a "wild olive tree" (gentiles) and a "good olive tree" that the gentiles are grafted into, and then "their own olive tree" that formerly unbelieving Israelites will be grafted BACK into. So do we have three olive trees ... a "wild olive tree", a "good olive tree" and "their own olive tree". We know that when Jesus returns, there will only be two groups of people ... wheat/tares, sheep/goats, wise virgins/foolish virgins, those who have a wedding garment/those who do, etc. So if Israel has "their own olive tree" that believing Israelites are going to be grafted back into, and gentiles are removed from the "wild olive tree" and grafted into in "a good olive tree", and unbelievers remain in the "wild olive tree", we are going to have three groups of people when Jesus returns.

    How do you view this?
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ?, not all verses promote the law/or permit sin, I mean seriously. the fact that a certain scripture doesn't say something far from means that something isn't true. That doesn't even amount to a weak argument.

    Genesis 1:1 doesn't say I'm not allowed to commit murder either, but that doesn't make it a fact.
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I remember now, you're the person who constantly makes claims but when asked to back them up, you cop out every time, hence I can't take much of anything you say seriously.

    Thanks for your input, whatever it was?
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks, I guess I did recall correctly in my last post. :)

    Some people still haven't caught on the the obvious fact they need to actually have and argument before they start one or make unfounded accusations, and backing out everytime just makes them look like something I cannot say here on the boards.
     
  11. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First, what exactly do the laws you mention entail? Secondly define legalistic and show me in the bible where that is mentioned as a problem. If you refuse to, I'll assume yet another cop out like here:

    That's a clear excuse. I've been trying to get that from you from the word go and you refuse.

    Cop out.
     
  12. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    Thanks. Why do so many not comment on what a poster says?
     
  13. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    I agree with Devin here. Your post seems rather odd.
     
  14. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    Yeah the last post is ancient history here.
     
  15. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    Guessing you mean only on the sabbaths or feast days.

    You did say everything was to rest.

    What did a beast of burden do? This refers to more than one kind of animal and conveyance (cart/wagon).

    You did say a servant does things you want done. I assume that includes things you can't do. Is that a reasonable assumption?
    I'm positive you did. This is of interest to me.

    Also wondering why obedience to a defunct covenant is so important. You say it's because you love God. That's great. Assume you mean to include Jesus.

    What does new covenant mean to you? Do we need to discuss the word "new?" I have a thread asking about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  16. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    Maybe you don't know what the little back button is in a quoted post. You guys seem to have to many conversation going on on to recall anything. I don't find it necessary to repeat what you said to respond. If you can't figure out what I'm saying ask. That doesn't include you can't remember.
     
  17. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    I was murdered by discouragement about everything from my dad. At my age it still effects me.
     
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  18. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    Thanks for your explanation. My take is that what you say is there's no salvation for anyone outside of Israel. That position doesn't coincide with the Gospel of John, the command at the end of Matthew, or the historical facts found in Acts.
     
  19. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    Probably kept your truncated version.
     
  20. Sheep dog

    Sheep dog Active Member

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    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

    Is Israel holy? Not by the Scripture I read. Jesus even said they where of their father the devil. Yes Israel is spoken of as an olive tree. An olive tree consisted of several stems and not branches. Those stems are also spoken of as branches. We're not talking about the olive tree relatives of today.

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    This says graft in among them. It doesn't say graft into them. Big difference. Now what do we partake of? Israel ? No. Jesus discusses this in Jn 15. Paul discusses it in Eph 2. Neither mention anything about being in Israel.

    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    What bearest thee? Israel? No again. Jn 15 applies here.

    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    What was or is their unbelief? Isn't it refusal to accept Jesus as their Messiah? Jn 10 applies here. One can only enter through the Door. The Door is Jesus.

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    In-other-words non acceptance of Jesus and the redemption He provides will lock one out.

    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    What is the condition of this verse? What is His goodness? Is it following the law? Not according to Jn 15:10 or I Jn 3:23.

    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    What? They're natural Jews being descendants of Jacob. How can it be they're no longer of that blood line? They believe they're descendants of Abraham their father as they confessed to Jesus. What is their unbelief? Isn't refusal to accept Jesus as their Messiah/Redeemer - the Root?

    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    This verse should make it clear they weren't being graft into Israel of which they're already a part of. Was Jesus sent to an olive tree? No, because of Gen 3:15.

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Ouch! and my only further comment is:

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
     
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