Day of the Lord all happens together

[JulieB67]

and if you can't get the context of Matthew 24 right that we simply will not know when he's going to return

Says the person that completely glosses over the fact that we are told to "watch". Watching means we are to watch for the signs that Christ laid out that precedes his return. That's what Matthew 24 is all about. No one knows the day or the hour but we are to know the signs so that day doesn't overtake one as a thief. It's written. You refuse to watch. Again, there's nothing wrong with being a watchman, there's no frenzy, panic about it. As Christians we are told to watch. And again, Paul didn't give his warnings to watch in Jerusalem, they were given in Greece. And his warnings mimic Christ's warnings. It will go down in someone's lifetime. But most Christians that are on watch lead full lives on this earth not in some panic mode as you claim most are. It's quite the opposite. It's peaceful knowing we lack nothing. Christ has foretold us all we need to know to be prepared if it should happen in one's lifetime.

 

[DavidPT]

I believe we are on God's timetable. This will happen to start the tribulation. That's the ultimate thing that will make this come to pass.

I think this ties into it,

Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Once he stands up this will start the tribulation. A period in time like no other or will ever be. Christ states the same thing. So how can anything in the past trump that time period? To me personally I can't think of anything worse than Satan and his angels being cast down to deceive the entire world. And he knows he has a short time.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

How can this not be the tribulation period?


I don't believe that Revelation 12 as being one event happening right after one another. There's alot to cover in that chapter. And I don't see Christ's crucifiction as pointed out as being what started the war.

So you believe his being cast down is symbolic in nature I assume as well? Since it's obviously you believe this happened 2000 years ago?

Again, these verses mirror one another-

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

We are reading Christ's revelation to John who is writing this. We see what was sent to the churches. We know the devil (Satan) is going to be here casting people in prison to be tried. Do you honestly believe this has already happened?

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Let's look at it from this angle then, since nothing I have submitted thusfar makes you want to maybe rethink some of this. Maybe this will? Or maybe not. The text says---Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. Obviously, that is meaning after satan has been cast out into the earth. Why would salvation not be coming 2000 years ago but is instead put on hold until the final days of this age? If the great trib is 3.5 years, for example, why is what I submitted from that verse reserved for that period of time in particular? During great trib, my view of it, the great trib is parallel with the great falling away mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Doesn't sound like a whole lot of salvation going on at the time if it is instead leading to a great falling away.

I don't see it making sense, nor can I understand why you might or why anyone might, if what I submitted from that verse is not even applicable until the final days of this age. Undebiably, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ---is meaning when satan is cast out into the earth. And if satan hasn't even been cast out yet, obviously that means the following is not even true yet since that is meaning once he is cast out---Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ.

 

[eclipsenow]

Says the person that completely glosses over the fact that we are told to "watch". Watching means we are to watch for the signs that Christ laid out that precedes his return. That's what Matthew 24 is all about. No one knows the day or the hour but we are to know the signs so that day doesn't overtake one as a thief. It's written. You refuse to watch. Again, there's nothing wrong with being a watchman, there's no frenzy, panic about it. As Christians we are told to watch. And again, Paul didn't give his warnings to watch in Jerusalem, they were given in Greece. And his warnings mimic Christ's warnings. It will go down in someone's lifetime. But most Christians that are on watch lead full lives on this earth not in some panic mode as you claim most are. It's quite the opposite. It's peaceful knowing we lack nothing. Christ has foretold us all we need to know to be prepared if it should happen in one's lifetime.

I don't think I said panic - I said manic. As in "Manic street preacher", or the guy I read about here whose 'witnessing' was telling the gas station owner about his predictions for the AntiChrist rather than just telling the guy about Jesus!

As for waiting, hmmm.
Some claim 1 Thess 5:2-5 says we should KNOW when the Lord will return. But it says nothing of the sort! It actually says that Day is unknowable - but it's possible to be prepared for it anyway. Knowing the DATE isn't important, knowing the personal salvation of Jesus Christ is.

1 Thess 5:

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

It's more like a command to remain in God's family, and remain children of the light and day. This is more about being prepared, like having an insurance policy to use if the house burns down. We don't know when it will burn down. But we have all our family photos backed up on the cloud and all our belongings insured. We are prepared for the eventuality - even if the timing is still like a thief in the night. IF Paul had been implying they were prepared because they knew A DATE - wouldn't he contrast the unprepared as NOT knowing A DATE? Instead it's not about knowing any date - but who you belong to. Light and darkness are not metaphors for knowledge, but which kingdom you are in. Who owns you? Who do you belong to?


1 Thessalonians 5:4-5

NIV: 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

ESV: 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.From the ESV Commentary:-

5:1–11 The Thessalonians are told to prepare for the same thing that will come unexpectedly upon the ungodly—the day of the Lord (vv. 2, 4). Paul assumes that Christians and non-Christians alike will be alive and present when the Day arrives, Christians watchful and ready, non-Christians surprised as by a thief who comes at night. In other words, the rapture of Christians spoken of in 4:17 will not occur before the arrival of the Day that will also bring sudden and inescapable destruction to the wicked (2 Thess. 2:1, 2 notes). See “The Return of Jesus Christ” at 4:16.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/reformation-study-bible/1Thess.5.1-1Thess.5.11

 

[keras]

I mean, you're sure you've got it right?

The plainly stated Words of the Bible has got it right.
I merely point them out and you reject them.

Here is a small sample of what the Lord intends to do in the future;
Isaiah 34:6 The Lord has a sword covered in blood.... He has a great slaughter in Bozrah and Edom. Bozrah, the sheepfold- where the 10 Northern tribes live. Edom- Non Israelite peoples, eg- Arabs, Hamitic peoples, etc

Jeremiah 11:16 Once you were My people, now with a great noise, you will be burnt and consumed.

Isaiah 5:25 The Lord’s anger is roused against His people and as He strikes them down, the mountains shake. Their bodies lie like dung in the streets.

Ezekiel 21:3 & 8-11 My sword will kill both righteous and wicked alike from the Negev northward. A sword is ready to kill and kill again, polished to flash like lightning, terrible will be the slaughter. Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

As for what Paul is telling the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 4:1-3, he isn't referring to the glorious Return of Jesus at all. The event Paul is referring to is the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Until people get that right, they remain in the dark.

 

[JulieB67]

Let's look at it from this angle then, since nothing I have submitted thusfar makes you want to maybe rethink some of this. Maybe this will? Or maybe not. The text says---Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ.

I don't think we're going to agree on this which is fine. I know we have common ground elsewhere. But I see "now is come salvation and strengh and the kingdom of our God as it being close to the end when Christ takes the reign for his kingdom on earth after Satan's short time.

But for the most part I just don't see Satan and his angels being cast out as symoblic in nature. I think that's a very real event them arriving on the scene. These are real beings, not some spirits people can't see.

 

[JulieB67]

he Thessalonians are told to prepare for the same thing that will come unexpectedly upon the ungodly—the day of the Lord (vv. 2, 4). Paul assumes that Christians and non-Christians alike will be alive and present when the Day arrives, Christians watchful and ready, non-Christians surprised as by a thief who comes at night. In other words, the rapture of Christians spoken of in 4:17 will not occur before the arrival of the Day that will also bring sudden and inescapable destruction to the wicked (2 Thess. 2:1, 2 notes). See “The Return of Jesus Christ” at 4:16.O

When you move on into 2nd Thes and the subject in chapter two goes back to the Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. (Same subject as 1st 4 and 5) He tells the same Thessalonians to not be shaken, confused, even as by a letter from them (first letter) that the day was at hand. It wasn't. He warns them very specifically that certain events had to unfold before that day could happen. And he wasn't talking about an event in the past. He wasn't talking about Jersalem.

He nails down the timing for once and all. And so until those events happen, Christ will not return.

 

[eclipsenow]

The plainly stated Words of the Bible has got it right.
I merely point them out and you reject them.

So said every futurist just before his timetable died on the reality of history.

Here is a small sample of what the Lord intends to do in the future;

Here we go again - but you're just not getting it

Isaiah 34:6 The Lord has a sword covered in blood.... He has a great slaughter in Bozrah and Edom. Bozrah, the sheepfold- where the 10 Northern tribes live. Edom- Non Israelite peoples, eg- Arabs, Hamitic peoples, etc

Yes - did you read that bit? Bozrah. Edom. Not modern day people, but kingdoms Isaiah actually knew that actually existed back then.

Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College - in America he would be called a Professor of OT. He says:-

"While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment." The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition

That is, the local Day of the Lord translates into the universal Day of the Lord in the New Testament. But you just keep ignoring what the scholars say in favour of your fever dream. When it doesn't pan out that way, do you know what the bible instructs us to do with you and your failed "dream prophecies?" Ignore them forever.

 

[eclipsenow]

My Amil mates Dr Greg Clarke and Dr John Dickson were on this ABC religion show Compass years ago, and their calm approach was juxtaposed against a futurist.

Are we facing the end of the world? American Pentecostal Pastor Ron Weinland believes he has been sent by God to announce the end of the world in 3 years time! In a provocative episode of Compass we meet this self-proclaimed prophet. He believes the end times are imminent, and he's not alone. Climate change, acts of terrorism and natural disasters have fuelled the current epidemic of apocalyptic thinking. In this Compass program leading Australian commentators; sociologist Richard Eckersley, Biblical scholar Dr John Dickson, literary academic Greg Clarke and psychologist Susan Tanner, tackle the ultimate question.

Apocalypse Now? (Rpt) - ABC Religion & Ethics

Are we facing the end of the world? American Pentecostal Pastor Ron Weinland believes he has been sent by God to announce the end of the world in 3 years time! In a provocative episode of Compass we meet this self-proclaimed prophet. He believes the end times are imminent, and he's not alone...

www.abc.net.au

Sadly you can't watch this great episode - it got archived. Why? Because it was from 2010 - 13 years ago!
See, the Lord could return and judge the world in 5 seconds, or in 50,000 years. We just don't know! He told us his kingdom would be more than the stars in the sky. We shall see.

But it won't be because some futurist plays "Drop the pin in the bible and see what comes out" and mixes it with a dream or 2.

 

[keras]

do you know what the bible instructs us to do with you and your failed "dream prophecies?" Ignore them forever.

The Bible never says we should ignore what the Prophets have told us.
Your belief that their Prophesies have been fulfilled, is just a bad joke and your fav Anglican know it all's and other assorted nutters, agree with you.

 

[eclipsenow]

The Bible never says we should ignore what the Prophets have told us.

Neither do I.
I just say we should ignore what your Middle-Eastern fever dream is trying to tell us the Prophets told us!

Your belief that their Prophesies have been fulfilled,

Too simplistic - they're 'fulfilled' but in eschatological tension.
The fact that you do not know what that means says more about you than it does me.

is just a bad joke and your fav Anglican know it all's and other assorted nutters, agree with you.

Now now - no tantrums. Forum rules please.

 

[JulieB67]

See, the Lord could return and judge the world in 5 seconds

Sadly you and many others are primed and ready for the first Christ to arrive on the scene. You don't even realize you yourself could be part of prophecey (falling away) because you are primed and ready for the fake Christ if it should happen in your lifetime. Anyone just waiting on on the real Christ at this point is in that boat. Paul specifically states that "day shall not happen...."

 

[tonychanyt]

When Amil's read the whole New Testament we see that the Day of the Lord - when Jesus returns - is it. There is no more, no in-between ages, no end-times-table. The Lord suddenly and unpredictably returns and EVERYTHING changes in an instant.

There are two ages in the New Testament - THIS AGE - and the AGE TO COME - and the transition between the two is the Day of the Lord aka Judgement Day aka the Coming of the Son of Man. There's just no separating any of this out! The dead are raised and judged, the heavens and earth melt, the New Heavens and New Earth are installed and believers are saved into their eternal new home. All together - as far as I can tell - in a flash! So read the clearer statements in Scripture first, then try and understand the less clear after that. Let's look at the clear first.

THIS AGE looks like this:-
“homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

THE AGE TO COME looks like this:-
it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

THE DAY OF THE LORD / LAST DAY looks like this

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24)

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

(Much of the material here adapted from the following source.)
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

Amen and we are to live as if our generation is the last

 

[DavidPT]

See, the Lord could return and judge the world in 5 seconds, or in 50,000 years. We just don't know!

Maybe we can apply that same logic to 2 Thessalonians 2 as well, that the Lord could have returned to judge the world within 5 seconds of Paul having written that letter. And assuming he wrote that letter before John received the visions pertaining to the book of Revelation, well there goes that book out the window then. Couldn't possibly receive those visions after Christ has already returned to judge the world 5 seconds later or anytime soon after that, once Paul wrote that 2nd letter. Not to mention, if Christ could have returned within 5 seconds of Paul writing that letter, that obviously wouldn't give time for the letter to be circulated, let alone being included in our Bibles.

What about 70 AD? I almost forgot about that. Obviously, Paul lived and died before 70 AD ever happened. And if Christ could have returned to judge the world within Paul's lifetime, for example, well there goes 70 AD out the window as well. 70 AD couldn't possibly still get fulfilled if there was a chance Christ could return at any time during the lifetime of any of the Apostles if most of them lived and died before 70 AD even happened.

It's funny though, unless you are totally unreasonable altogether, you will likely allow for it be nonsensical that there was even this possibility that Christ could have returned during the lifetime of Apostles that didn't even live to see 70 AD, yet, you don't think it is nonsensical that Christ can literally return within 5 seconds from now, even if it makes prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled, false prophecies. It certainly would have made what was prophesied about 70 AD, a false prophecy, if there was always this possibility that Christ could have returned to judge the world before 70 AD.

Granted, He never returned prior to 70 AD. Yet, that is beside the point. The point is, there was zero possibility to begin with, that He could return to judge the world prior to 70 AD, period. Anyone today that insists there was still that possibility, though it never happened, is not anyone I care to listen to. Nor is anyone who insists Christ could even return within the next 5 seconds, is anyone I care to listen to either, since it is plainly obvious to a lot of us, there are still some prophecies needing fulfilled before He can return, the same way there were still some prophecies needing to be fulfilled in the first century post Paul writing any of his letters, that had to be fulfilled before He can return.

BTW, look at all of the 5 second periods of time that have elapsed since me posting this. He obviously hasn't returned during any of them as of yet.

 

[eclipsenow]

Sadly you and many others are primed and ready for the first Christ to arrive on the scene. You don't even realize you yourself could be part of prophecey (falling away) because you are primed and ready for the fake Christ if it should happen in your lifetime. Anyone just waiting on on the real Christ at this point is in that boat. Paul specifically states that "day shall not happen...."

Yeah, you're dangerously close to breaking the forum rule about telling someone they're not a Christian.
You don't know me.
You don't understand what thief in the night means.
So don't Bulverise me! From the wiki:-
___

Bulverism is a type of ad hominem rhetorical fallacy that combines circular reasoning and the genetic fallacy with presumption or condescension. The Bulverist assumes a speaker's argument is invalid or false and then explains why the speaker came to make that mistake or to be so silly (even if the opponent's claim is actually right) by attacking the speaker or the speaker's motive.

The term Bulverism was coined by C. S. Lewis after an imaginary character[1] to poke fun at a serious error in thinking that, he alleged, frequently occurred in a variety of religious, political, and philosophical debates.

Similar to Antony Flew's "subject/motive shift", Bulverism is a fallacy of irrelevance. One accuses an argument of being wrong on the basis of the arguer's identity or motive, but these are irrelevant to the argument's validity or truth.

Source of the concept[edit]​

Lewis wrote about this in a 1941 essay,[2][3] which was later expanded and published in 1944 in The Socratic Digest under the title "Bulverism".[4][3] This was reprinted both in Undeceptions and the more recent anthology God in the Dock in 1970. He explains the origin of this term:[5]

Suppose I think, after doing my accounts, that I have a large balance at the bank. And suppose you want to find out whether this belief of mine is "wishful thinking." You can never come to any conclusion by examining my psychological condition. Your only chance of finding out is to sit down and work through the sum yourself. When you have checked my figures, then, and then only, will you know whether I have that balance or not. If you find my arithmetic correct, then no amount of vapouring about my psychological condition can be anything but a waste of time. If you find my arithmetic wrong, then it may be relevant to explain psychologically how I came to be so bad at my arithmetic, and the doctrine of the concealed wish will become relevant—but only after you have yourself done the sum and discovered me to be wrong on purely arithmetical grounds. It is the same with all thinking and all systems of thought. If you try to find out which are tainted by speculating about the wishes of the thinkers, you are merely making a fool of yourself. You must first find out on purely logical grounds which of them do, in fact, break down as arguments. Afterwards, if you like, go on and discover the psychological causes of the error.
You must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he is wrong. The modern method is to assume without discussion that he is wrong and then distract his attention from this (the only real issue) by busily explaining how he became so silly. In the course of the last fifteen years I have found this vice so common that I have had to invent a name for it. I call it "Bulverism". Some day I am going to write the biography of its imaginary inventor, Ezekiel Bulver, whose destiny was determined at the age of five when he heard his mother say to his father—who had been maintaining that two sides of a triangle were together greater than a third—"Oh you say that because you are a man." "At that moment", E. Bulver assures us, "there flashed across my opening mind the great truth that refutation is no necessary part of argument. Assume that your opponent is wrong, and explain his error, and the world will be at your feet. Attempt to prove that he is wrong or (worse still) try to find out whether he is wrong or right, and the national dynamism of our age will thrust you to the wall." That is how Bulver became one of the makers of the Twentieth Century.
— C. S. Lewis, Bulverism

 

[eclipsenow]

Maybe we can apply that same logic to 2 Thessalonians 2 as well, that the Lord could have returned to judge the world within 5 seconds of Paul having written that letter. And assuming he wrote that letter before John received the visions pertaining to the book of Revelation, well there goes that book out the window then. Couldn't possibly receive those visions after Christ has already returned to judge the world 5 seconds later or anytime soon after that, once Paul wrote that 2nd letter. Not to mention, if Christ could have returned within 5 seconds of Paul writing that letter, that obviously wouldn't give time for the letter to be circulated, let alone being included in our Bibles.

What about 70 AD? I almost forgot about that. Obviously, Paul lived and died before 70 AD ever happened. And if Christ could have returned to judge the world within Paul's lifetime, for example, well there goes 70 AD out the window as well. 70 AD couldn't possibly still get fulfilled if there was a chance Christ could return at any time during the lifetime of any of the Apostles if most of them lived and died before 70 AD even happened.

I said from now.
Not from when.
You're inserting the when waaay before Amils do - and creating your own straw-man to attack.

even if it makes prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled,

Other than the return of Christ on Judgement Day when it all happens together, there IS no prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled! And I addressed 2 Thessalonians previously in the thread.

 

[JulieB67]

Yeah, you're dangerously close to breaking the forum rule about telling someone they're not a Christian.

I would never tell someone they're not a Christian but falling away is departing from the truth. That applies to people of the faith, not the unsaved. That will happen, it's written. That's why knowing the signs that Christ and Paul lay out are so important and why their warnings are so important. They don't want us to be harvested out of season they want us to wait on the true Christ.

And I'm stating that someone that is just waiting on Christ to return at this point is in danger of falling away to the fake one that arrives first. When Christ states " If someone says Christ is here or there, believe it not" it sounds like you might possibly believe it because you don't believe anything has to happen (just like the pretribbers) before his return. So if the fake one arrives performing miracles, etc you might possible set yourself up to believe because you think that's all that's left to happen, the return of Christ.
You don't seem to care that Christ and Paul gave out specific warnings about this very subject. And no, the warnings were not about 70AD, as I've stated Paul gave his warnings to the church set up in Greece.
Some will go to Christ and he will state he never knew them. We don't want to be in that bunch.

 

[eclipsenow]

I would never tell someone they're not a Christian but falling away is departing from the truth. That applies to people of the faith, not the unsaved. That will happen, it's written.

So you're definitely not a TULIP Calvinist then?

That's why knowing the signs that Christ and Paul lay out are so important and why their warnings are so important. They don't want us to be harvested out of season they want us to wait on the true Christ.

Yeah - when one's end times table is more important than understanding the basic gospel.
And getting other Christians to confirm to YOUR particular end times table is more important than sharing the gospel with the unsaved.
It seems like there's a temptation to take on other priorities going on here

And I'm stating that someone that is just waiting on Christ to return at this point is in danger of falling away to the fake one that arrives first.

Yeah, nah.
Go back and read the OP.
The only Christ I'm waiting for does all that in an instant - not some long drawn out hypothetical thing in a hypothetical, still to be built third temple that so many futurists salivate over more than sharing the gospel itself

 

[iamlamad]

When Amil's read the whole New Testament we see that the Day of the Lord - when Jesus returns - is it. There is no more, no in-between ages, no end-times-table. The Lord suddenly and unpredictably returns and EVERYTHING changes in an instant.

There are two ages in the New Testament - THIS AGE - and the AGE TO COME - and the transition between the two is the Day of the Lord aka Judgement Day aka the Coming of the Son of Man. There's just no separating any of this out! The dead are raised and judged, the heavens and earth melt, the New Heavens and New Earth are installed and believers are saved into their eternal new home. All together - as far as I can tell - in a flash! So read the clearer statements in Scripture first, then try and understand the less clear after that. Let's look at the clear first.

THIS AGE looks like this:-
“homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

THE AGE TO COME looks like this:-
it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

THE DAY OF THE LORD / LAST DAY looks like this

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24)

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

(Much of the material here adapted from the following source.)
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

JOhn begins the Day of the Lord (the day of His wrath) at the 6th seal. The fifth seal is for church age martyrs.
At the 7th seal and with the first trumpet, Daniel's 70th week begins.

This effectively puts the 70th week of Daniel INSIDE the Day of the Lord, so every judgment in the 70th week will come with Day of the Lord wrath.

While the Antichrist is venting his wrath in the murdering of the saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. The truth then is, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are contemporaneous, happening parallel to each other and at the same time.

 

[eclipsenow]

JOhn begins the Day of the Lord (the day of His wrath) at the 6th seal. The fifth seal is for church age martyrs.
At the 7th seal and with the first trumpet, Daniel's 70th week begins.

This effectively puts the 70th week of Daniel INSIDE the Day of the Lord, so every judgment in the 70th week will come with Day of the Lord wrath.

While the Antichrist is venting his wrath in the murdering of the saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. The truth then is, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are contemporaneous, happening parallel to each other and at the same time.

Nope - these sequences of 7 are not linear like a future timeline, but happening together along side each other. They describe life from the moment Jesus died till now, they don't prescribe it. It's a sermon, not a timetable, an encouragement to godly living in a variety of contexts, not a secret timetable for the future.

 

[eclipsenow]

The fact that Jesus Return & "The Rapture" & Judgement Day & The "Great White Throne" all happen together is an essential feature of Amillennialism. Amil theology is the majority eschatology across Christian history and even the Christian church today. (Estimated to be about 2/3rds of the church today - even after the terrible influence of the Scofield Bible that changed American Christianity for generations!) Basically Amils see the whole of this church period as 2 ages - the "Millennium" that we're in now, basically the "Last Days" which started at Pentecost (see Peter's sermon!) - and then Eternity. This is basically the way the New Testament describes time. Now, and THEN!

Leaving only ONE calamitous, wonderful, terrible event (depending on whether you know the Lord or not!) - BANG! The RETURN!

The following definition of Amillennialism is from the 5 sola’s website (link below). —-


DISTINCTIVE FEATURES AND EMPHASIS


a. The "a" millennial (literally meaning "no" millennium) position is the eschatological view of historic Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed Christianity. It would be my educated guess that about two-thirds of the Christian family espouse an amillennial eschatology. The amillennial position is as well the position of the vast majority of Reformed and Lutheran theologians. The position portrayed in these lectures is the Reformed understanding of amillennialism, which is better understood as "present" millennialism [or "realized" millennialism], since Reformed eschatology argues for a real, present, though "invisible" non-spatial millennium.


b. Amillennialists insist that the promises made to national Israel, David and Abraham, in the OT are fulfilled by Christ and the Church during this age, which is the millennium, that is the entire period of time between the two advents of our Lord. The "thousand years" are therefore symbolic of the entire inter-advental age. Satan is bound by Christ's victory over him and the establishment of the kingdom of God via the preaching of the gospel, and Satan is no longer free to deceive the nations, through the presence of Christ is reigning in heaven during this period with the martyrs who come out of the great tribulation. At the end of the millennial age, Christ returns in judgement of all men. The general resurrection occurs, final judgement takes place for all men and women, and a new Heaven and Earth are established.


C. In most forms of amillennialism, immediately before the return of Christ, Satan is unbound, there is a great apostasy, and a time of unprecedented satanically inspired evil. This last Satanic gasp and subsequent rebellious activity is destroyed by our Lord at his return.

PROPONENTS:

a. Amillennialism has always been the majority position of the Christian family. It was first articulated by St. Augustine, and has been given a distinctive Reformed emphasis through the work of Geerhardus Vos (the "Biblical-Theological" approach). As the "dispensational" movement captured the hearts and minds of conservative American Evangelicals, amillennialism was equated with "liberalism" or Roman Catholicism. The supposed interpreting prophecy "spiritually" or "not-literally" has lead to the rejection of amillennialism by many. In addition, amillennialism suffered greatly from the failure of Reformed and Luthern writers to defend the position against the likes of Dave Hunt, Chuck Missler and Hal Lindsey, who has labeled the position as "demonic and heretical," and the root of modern anti-semitism. b. Leading contemporary "amill" theologians would include popular writers such as J. I. Packer, Mike Horton, [the late] Calvin seminary professor, Anthony Hoekema, and RC Sproul. In addition, all of the Reformers, as well as the Reformed and Lutheran confessional traditions, as a whole, have been amillennial.

BIBLIOGRAPHY: The most important and useful amillennial work is the excellent book by Anthony A. Hoekema, The Bible and the Future (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans, 1982). Also helpful are: Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church (Phillipsburg: The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1947); Arthur Lewis, The Dark Side of the Millennium (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1980); William E. Cox, Amillennialism Today (PhilIipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1966); William E. Cox, Biblical Studies in Final Things (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1966).

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