Day of the Lord all happens together

[eclipsenow]

MOST of the Bible prophesies point to the end times.

Correct. Some prophecies even use cosmic sounding language to describe the end of an empire.
MATTHEW 24: “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”

This sounds like the end of the world. But in the Old Testament this is the image used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground. There are many ways to look at Matthew 24 - and some say that the passage jumps between the Roman destruction of the temple and THAT DAY (the final Day of the Lord), but that this bit here is the same sorts of cosmic language we get to describe nation against nation.

Isaiah writes against Babylon. God is bringing the Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. Yet - in a fashion typical for Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!
Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”

Then again in Isaiah 34, there is more universal judgment against all God's enemies as symbolised by the one awful figure of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.
Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shrivelled figs from the fig tree.”

Joel 2 describes a vast army of the Lord that brings justice - and uses similar language.
Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.”

These verses are about local judgements against those nations or groups of nations - but they were not literally fulfilled as described. It's more theological language that probably alludes to their gods being dethroned as the kings of their nations are.

But all of your prophecies about CME's etc ignore one fundamental description of the Last Day that Jesus gives that is often missed. While the "Last Days" or "end times" (2000 years and counting) are at times and places characterised by earthquakes, famines, wars, and awful tyrants that persecute God's people - there are also times that Revelation 13 describes as times of wealth and seduction. (It describes it, it doesn't PRESCRIBE it in some sort of timetable. That's how this book works.)

The Return of Jesus on Judgement Day aka the Last Day is a mystery. Indeed, it will be SUCH a shock that I doubt there will be great calamities just before he returns as that would be a bit of a tell, and give away that he was about to Judge the world! Instead of calamities, we read:

Matthew 24: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

= it will probably be a time of peace and prosperity when he returns. Partying even! Eating and drinking and marrying!

1 Thess 5:3 | "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day."

= DON'T let your guard down when times are easy.
= But also, DON'T worry about times and dates! You CANNOT know them.
= DO remain Christian, because being 'ready' is NOT about understanding a timetable or date, but being in a relationship. Remain children of the light. Remain in Christ - it's the only way to be ready when he SUDDENLY and unpredictably returns.

 

[keras]

These verses are about local judgements against those nations or groups of nations - but they were not literally fulfilled as described. It's more theological language that probably alludes to their gods being dethroned as the kings of their nations are.

The verses you posted all describe cosmic and earthly things which can be literally fulfilled.
"probably alludes", is simply not good enough, you have no reason or proof that they all won't be literally fulfilled.

In actual fulfilled Prophecy, we know Jesus did ride on a donkey, we know the Jews did return after 70 years of Babylonian captivity. etc.
Thinking that the end times prophesies are allegorical and virtually meaningless, is a mistake and has no viable reasoning

when he SUDDENLY and unpredictably returns.

The glorious Return will not be sudden or unpredictable. It will be preceded by the trump of God and the shout of the Archangel, 1 Thess 4:16.
It will also happen exactly 1260 days after the Anti-Christ, Satan sits in the new Temple and declares himself to be God. Revelation 11 & 12. 2 Thess 2:4
.

 

[eclipsenow]

"probably alludes", is simply not good enough, you have no reason or proof that they all won't be literally fulfilled.

No - running roughshod over the hermeneutics in a manic effort to prove some daydream you had while on holidays is simply not good enough. We need to investigate the context of the chapter in the section of the book, how the sections of the book relate to each other and history, what the original audience would have made of the text, what was happening at the times, what was in the surrounding literature at the times, how they understood certain images and ideas in the culture, how it then fits into that section of God's unfolding plan, how it fits into the whole bible, and only THEN how it might speak to us today!
Just going "That sounds to me like..." is utterly unacceptable.
I'm going off biblical scholarship that does all the above. You're going off a desert fever dream.

In actual fulfilled Prophecy, we know Jesus did ride on a donkey, we know the Jews did return after 70 years of Babylonian captivity. etc.
Thinking that the end times prophesies are allegorical and virtually meaningless, is a mistake and has no viable reasoning

Certain things were fulfilled literally - certain things were not.

Is Jesus the living water?
Does Jesus death and resurrection provide living water that runs all over the earth, bringing life where-ever it goes? Is that a fulfillment of OT prophecy or not? Be very careful how you answer.

The glorious Return will not be sudden or unpredictable.

Yes it will. Jesus himself told you it will in plain language.
The fact that you cannot understand Revelation is not his fault.

 

[eclipsenow]

The glorious Return will not be sudden or unpredictable. It will be preceded by the trump of God and the shout of the Archangel, 1 Thess 4:16.
It will also happen exactly 1260 days after the Anti-Christ, Satan sits in the new Temple and declares himself to be God. Revelation 11 & 12. 2 Thess 2:4
.

Yeah, in 2026. You've said. Remember you once said "I remain perfectly confident and I know the Appointed Day on which the Lord will arise and send fire to destroy the attackers of Israel and change the world".

The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Here is some Bible study for the deniers: Isaiah 13:9 The Day of the Lord is coming, a cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to desolation and to destroy all the wicked there. 1 Samuel 2:10 Those who oppose the Lord will be terrified, when He strikes from the heavens. 2...

tinyurl.com

"January 2020 AD - 29.5 AD = 1990.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.
1990.5 + 4000 = 5990.5 years, is where we are now. 5990.5 + 9.5 = 6000 years
2020 AD + 9.5 = 2029.5 AD
Exactly 2000 years for the present Church age, until Jesus Returns.
4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam. Next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind."

The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Obadiah 1:15-21 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations, they will be treated as they have treated others and their wrong actions will recoil upon themselves. My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath, then all the nations in turn will drink of it and be devastated by it. But in...

www.christianforums.com

"I know this, because in 2010, when I was in the Holy Land; I received a vision from the Lord and inspiration to do this."

The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

This is your error; Paul does not say that when he dies he will be present with the Lord. He says that is his desire, but we know it isn't the reality at all. However, as I have said; the next conscious moment after death, is to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:1-15 Your grammar is...

tinyurl.com

Earlier in the same post:- "The Return will not be unexpected, as that will occur exactly 1260 days after the leader of the One World Govt sits in the Temple. 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 13:5"

So all we have to do to evaluate whether your 'particular' CME version of end-times-tables is true is wait till 2026, a mere 3 years away, to see if the AOD happens. IF there's even a temple in the Middle East for it to happen in!

Good luck with that. Oh yeah, you don't need luck.

"I am just a humble servant of the Most High God. He gave me a task: to promote what His prophets wrote so long ago, because what they wrote then, is about to happen soon. I know this, because in 2010, when I was in the Holy Land; I received a vision from the Lord and inspiration to do this." The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Humble indeed!

But just in case you're wrong - you start writing stuff like this? "The maths is right, But as I posted in another thread, the glorious Return may be delayed 3 1/2 years. Or put on hold at the Seventh Trumpet."

 

[JulieB67]

I wasn't even making a comment one way or another on whether that relates to his binding.

Yes, but that would have to factor in some way to what you believe I would assume. Since you believe he was kicked out when Christ was crucified but yet you also believe he was binded when Christ was crucified. That was my point. If you believe that, than where does him being cast down to earth come to play and why the warning if he is binded? And it's specifically Christians that overcome him because it's the blood of the lamb and their testimony that helps them overcome.

And anyone can see these two verses mirror one another,

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

. We should interpret Revelation 12 accordingly.

So where do you place this event is what I'm asking, your beliefs about Satan not being able to accuse aside? Unless you believe it's all symbolic in nature as well. I'll move on if that's the case.

 

[JulieB67]

Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

You didn't highlight the most important part.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

This tells us that without a doubt we are to know in what "watch" the thief would come. Meaning he only comes like a thief in the night to those "not watching". What are we to watch for? The signs he just laid out. We don't know the day or hour but we are to know the signs to watch for.

He only comes suddenly and like a thief to those not watching.

You CANNOT know them.

Wrong, Christ states we are to "know them" Not the day or the hour but the signs he laid out. The goodman of the house has to know them so that day does not overtake them as a thief.

DO remain Christian, because being 'ready' is NOT about understanding a timetable or date, but being in a relationship.

You're basically telling everyone you don't have to watch for the signs Christ and Paul have laid out. Both say "watch". You are stating the opposite. That's why it's hard to take your posts seriously. It will happen in someone's lifetime and as Christians the only way to be ready is to "know" the signs. There's no panic about being a watchman as you seem to believe. The only thing to fear is the unknown.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes, but that would have to factor in some way to what you believe I would assume. Since you believe he was kicked out when Christ was crucified but yet you also believe he was binded when Christ was crucified. That was my point. If you believe that, than where does him being cast down to earth come to play and why the warning if he is binded? And it's specifically Christians that overcome him because it's the blood of the lamb and their testimony that helps them overcome.

And anyone can see these two verses mirror one another,

I'm an example of someone that can agree with Amils concerning some things without having to be an Amil in order to do so.

And when does the text indicate they need to mainly do what is recorded in verse 11? Before he is cast to the earth, or after he is cast to the earth?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


It seems to me that verse 11 is meaning once he is cast out into the earth following this war in heaven. Which then means that if his being cast out into the earth is still future, what about the past 2000 years in regards to verse 11? How can one apply any of that to those Christians when verse 11 would still be future according to your interpretation as to when satan is cast to the earth?

Before we even get to verse 11, verse 9 already undeniably tells us that satan has been cast out into the earth, therefore, verse 11 is obviously meaning after he has been cast out into the earth. Yet, you insist his being cast out into the earth is still future. And if true, that means we can't apply anything recorded in verse 11 to past Christians over the past 2000 years because verse 11 is still future according to your interpretation as to when he is cast out into the earth.

Keep in mind, whatever we conclude about something, it at least needs to be logical if it is worthy of considering. And I don't see it being logical, the fact verse 11 is equally applicable to Christians in the past as it is applicable to Christians in the present and the future. And since verse 9 already makes it clear that verse 11 is meaning after satan is cast out into the earth, it renders verse 11 nonsensical if his casting out into the earth is still future, which then means, not only can we not apply verse 11 to past Christians over the past 2000 years, we can't even apply it to present Christians either, since you insist satan being cast out into the earth, this is still future.

On a side note, though. One thing that is perfectly clear to some of us, and I'm assuming including you, nothing recorded in Revelation 12, where it involves the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years many Amils insist is meaning when satan is in the pit, even remotely supports that. Clearly, what satan does once he is cast to the earth, he does that while not in the pit, and not, while he is in the pit.

 

[eclipsenow]

You didn't highlight the most important part.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

Seriously Julie - if you're going to cherry-pick verses as atrociously as you have just done then I'll just plonk you straight on my Ignore list. What does the very next verse say?

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

The whole point of the thief in the night is we do NOT know when the Lord is going to return. It's about constant vigilance - just like the maidens and their ceremonial oil lamps waiting for the wedding party.

I mean - seriously - what are you thinking as you rip a verse completely out of context like this? Language is all about context. If you can't even read this verse correctly, then I'm not going anywhere near Revelation with you

 

[keras]

Yeah, in 2026. You've said. Remember you once said "I remain perfectly confident and I know the Appointed Day on which the Lord will arise and send fire to destroy the attackers of Israel and change the world".

The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Here is some Bible study for the deniers: Isaiah 13:9 The Day of the Lord is coming, a cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to desolation and to destroy all the wicked there. 1 Samuel 2:10 Those who oppose the Lord will be terrified, when He strikes from the heavens. 2...

tinyurl.com

"January 2020 AD - 29.5 AD = 1990.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.
1990.5 + 4000 = 5990.5 years, is where we are now. 5990.5 + 9.5 = 6000 years
2020 AD + 9.5 = 2029.5 AD
Exactly 2000 years for the present Church age, until Jesus Returns.
4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam. Next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.
7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind."

The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Obadiah 1:15-21 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations, they will be treated as they have treated others and their wrong actions will recoil upon themselves. My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath, then all the nations in turn will drink of it and be devastated by it. But in...

www.christianforums.com

"I know this, because in 2010, when I was in the Holy Land; I received a vision from the Lord and inspiration to do this."

The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

This is your error; Paul does not say that when he dies he will be present with the Lord. He says that is his desire, but we know it isn't the reality at all. However, as I have said; the next conscious moment after death, is to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:1-15 Your grammar is...

tinyurl.com

Earlier in the same post:- "The Return will not be unexpected, as that will occur exactly 1260 days after the leader of the One World Govt sits in the Temple. 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 13:5"

So all we have to do to evaluate whether your 'particular' CME version of end-times-tables is true is wait till 2026, a mere 3 years away, to see if the AOD happens. IF there's even a temple in the Middle East for it to happen in!

Good luck with that. Oh yeah, you don't need luck.

"I am just a humble servant of the Most High God. He gave me a task: to promote what His prophets wrote so long ago, because what they wrote then, is about to happen soon. I know this, because in 2010, when I was in the Holy Land; I received a vision from the Lord and inspiration to do this." The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Humble indeed!

But just in case you're wrong - you start writing stuff like this? "The maths is right, But as I posted in another thread, the glorious Return may be delayed 3 1/2 years. Or put on hold at the Seventh Trumpet."

Well; you have at least successfully proved me to be a fallible human!
However, I can rightfully claim to have a better that most knowledge of all the Bible Prophesies. Having written 800+ articles on that subject, I can see how God has planned the redemption of His Creation and how He will achieve His goal of having a people who have chosen to believe in Him and to keep His Commandments.

You, on the other hand; avoid Prophesies like Amos 5:18-20, as they so obviously do not refer to the glorious Return.
Those Prophesies which describe worldwide deaths and disasters, describe an event before the Return, when the Lord will make His enemies His footstool. Hebrews 10:13 plainly says Jesus waits in heaven for that to happen.
Revelation sets it out: We experience now the first five Seals, wars, famines, plagues and the persecution of Christians. The next to happen is the Sixth Seal, the world changer that will commence the rest of Revelation, finishing with Eternity.

"I remain perfectly confident and I know the Appointed Day on which the Lord will arise and send fire to destroy the attackers of Israel and change the world".

Haggai 2:10, Haggai 2:18 and Haggai 2:20, all mention the 24th day of the ninth month. Which is Kislev 24, an important date in history and again in our future. Why else would the Bible repeat that date 3 times? It is the year that we do not know, but the signs of its imminence are quite apparent.
For these are the Words of the Lord: In a little while from now, I shall shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. I shall shake all the nations and the treasure of all nations will come here and I will fill this latter House with splendour, surpassing that of the former. [Temples]
In this place, [all of the holy Land] I shall grant prosperity and peace. I speak it and I will do it. Haggai 2:6-9

 

[eclipsenow]

I'm an example of someone that can agree with Amils concerning some things without having to be an Amil in order to do so.

And when does the text indicate they need to mainly do what is recorded in verse 11? Before he is cast to the earth, or after he is cast to the earth?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


On a side note, though. One thing that is perfectly clear to some of us, and I'm assuming including you, nothing recorded in Revelation 12, where it involves the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years many Amils insist is meaning when satan is in the pit, even remotely supports that. Clearly, what satan does once he is cast to the earth, he does that while not in the pit, and not, while he is in the pit.

The pit is symbolic of something. Him roaming the earth is symbolic of something. Futurists make the mistake of approaching Revelation as a future-timetable when it's a series of theological images preaching the gospel to suffering Christians. It describes, roughly, what life will be like between Jesus Resurrection and his Return. There will be the temptations of both persecution and prosperity. Watch out!

The "Millennium" isn't a literal amount of time. Instead John is using the common Hebrew number symbolism of a very long time. The use of 1000 in the Hebrew is often like the use of 'a gazillion' in English. It just means a lot, or the complete number of. EG: Psalm 50 the “Cattle on 1000 hills” - what about the other million hills on earth?

EG: Deuteronomy 1:11 - is God only going to increase Israel 1000 fold? Only? What about the “New Israel” - us - the church? Limited to a thousandfold increase from their numbers back then?

EG: Psalm 91:7 - is it 1000 or 10,000 - the verse uses these interchangeably?

EG: Deuteronomy 7:9 - is God only faithful for 1000 generations and then becomes unfaithful on the 1001st generation?

EG: Psalm 105:8 - is it 1000 generations or forever?

EG: Psalms 84:10 - Is one day with God’s people better than 1000 literal days or 2.7 years, or is this a qualitative assessment of where it is better to DWELL for a long time?

The number 1000 is either a picture of forever - or a great many number. I’m an Amil in that I believe that Revelation 20 teaches us there will be a great number of years between the Lord’s resurrection and his return. We’ve been in these '1000 years' for 2000 years and counting.

But what are we to make of Satan and this pit?
Surely he’s alive and active now? That’s a good question - but it helps us understand Revelation better. Rev 13 is a picture of Satan inspiring the Roman government persecution against God’s people. It's a warning that this will not only happen under the Romans, but creeps up throughout history. But the picture of the safety of God’s people in the next chapter should also comfort Christians who went through Hitler’s Holocaust, or Soviet oppression, or even Chinese or North Korean oppression today. So Satan is very much alive and active today.

But he is ALSO bound - at exactly the same time. How does this work? We’ve got to understand the imagery is not a geographic reality - Satan being bound in a literal pit - but a theological statement. Satan is bound with regard to 'deceiving the nations' as the gospel goes forward. That shows how ineffectual he is to prevent the growth of God's kingdom. There are now roughly a million Christians in IRAN - where there is intense persecution of Christians. As God's gospel charges into new lands, Satan's ability to 'deceive the nations' is in retreat. The article below summarises this for us:-

“When the seventy returned from their preaching mission, they said to Jesus, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name." Jesus replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:17-18). These words, needless to say, must not be interpreted as suggesting Satan's literal descent from heaven at that moment. They must rather be understood to mean that Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow—that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place. In this instance Satan's fall or binding is associated directly with the missionary activity of Jesus' disciples.

Another passage which relates the restriction of Satan's activities to Christ's missionary outreach is John 12:31-32: "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." It is interesting to note that the verb translated "cast out" (ekball) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3, "and threw (ball) him [Satan] into the pit." Even more important, however, is the observation that Satan's being "cast out" is here associated with the fact that not only Jews but men of all nationalities shall be drawn to Christ as he hangs on the cross.

The binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3, therefore, means that throughout the gospel age in which we now live the influence of Satan, though certainly not annihilated, is so curtailed that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to the nations of the world. Because of the binding of Satan during this present age, the nations cannot conquer the church, but the church is conquering the nations.”

The Millennium of Revelation 20 | Monergism

 

[keras]

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

The whole point of the thief in the night is we do NOT know when the Lord is going to return. It's about constant vigilance - just like the maidens and their ceremonial oil lamps waiting for the wedding party.

Can you and other people not understand that this verse relates to Matthew 24:37-41, which precede it?
It does not refer to the glorious Return, but to an event of similar magnitude to Noah's Flood. The event that Luke 21:25-26 describes.

 

[eclipsenow]

However, I can rightfully claim to have a better that most knowledge of all the Bible Prophesies. Having written 800+ articles on that subject,

Humble much? I could say the same about writing 800 posts on it - but hey - it's the quality and truthfulness of those posts that matters. What are you going to do when there's not even a temple in Israel in 2027? 1 Jan 2027 your house of cards comes tumbling down my friend.

Revelation sets it out: We experience now the first five Seals, wars, famines, plagues and the persecution of Christians.

Um, no. I am the one saying we experience now the seals and bowls etc NOW - and have done so for the last 2000 years. Actually - I'm nothing - the scholars I read and respect and have godly consistent lifestyles say it. You're the one making the majority of Revelation irrelevant for 2000 years except for some last 7 years of church history. From my perspective, I'm asking...

If Revelation has just been the bogeyman of the bible, only relevant to the last 7 years of church history, why did John even bother writing it?

What GOOD has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?

Futurism is a perspective warped by our own narcissistic desires to have something written all about us and our times, that we can cast our geopolitical issues into. From Revelation 1 we see John wanting HIS generation to hear and obey it. But what futurists have done is basically warped Revelation into something that would have sounded like this to the original generation...

"The Borg most dire will attack the Daleks on Mount Olympus on Mars in 4000 AD."

Now obey this message!

 

[eclipsenow]

Can you and other people not understand that this verse relates to Matthew 24:37-41, which precede it?
It does not refer to the glorious Return, but to an event of similar magnitude to Noah's Flood. The event that Luke 21:25-26 describes.

Matthew 24 is one of the hardest passages in the bible to put aside futurist presuppositions for a few reasons: futurists want the whole thing to be about the End Times because that gives them modern Israel and 1948 to start drawing up timetables around. It’s also complicated because Jesus is answering 2 questions - the end of that temple then the end of the world in the future.


Many futurists just project the whole chapter into the Last Days - and take Jesus descriptions of the Romans sacking Jerusalem and the temple in AD70 to be about some future, still hypothetical third temple. This will not do! Jesus was not lying to the disciples! For chapters and chapters he had been warning the disciples against the current system. He has wept over Jerusalem, his Jerusalem! He has ranted about the corrupt Pharisees, the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit, the overturning of the money changer’s tables, against the way they accepted the last few coins from the widow - “all she had to live on!”, and even said for those who had faith “this mountain falling into the sea” would not be the end of their forgiveness from God - even if the temple mountain fell into the sea!


If they were listening, they should have understood the temple’s time was up. But the disciples were gawking at the ‘large stones’ of the temple like country bumpkins in the big city. They’re still trusting in the might of the temple system. So Jesus warns them it’s all coming down! Within ‘this generation’. He’s still trying to get them thinking about relationship with God in gospel terms. They’re just not getting it yet!


But then Jesus switches from talking about ‘these things’ in front of them - the temple and the Romans destroying it within that generation - to the more distant end of the world on “That day” in verse 36. It’s going to be a while. “But about that day or hour no one knows,” and the parable of the thief, the foolish servant, and the ten maidens and their lamps all illustrate how vigilant and patient the church will have to be as we wait for “That day”.


OK then! The first half is all about the temple, and the second half from verse 36 is all about “That day”. This is confirmed in other ways as well. The destruction of the temple is predictable, local, and escapable. You can do something about it! When you see the Romans coming - run away! Flee! But “That day” will be universal, unpredictable, and totally inescapable. These are very different things.


It all seems neat and tidy - yeah right! Because the great wrinkle in dividing Matthew 24 around verse 36 is 27 to 30 - the “Lightning from east to west”, sun and moon darkened and heavens shaken stuff! That sounds pretty end-of-the-world!


So what are we to do with this? Let’s look at the GOSPEL OPTION which makes sense of the Old Testament use of this language. We need to put aside our preconceived ideas and systematically go through this apocalyptic symbolism and try and find what is being quoted from the Old Testament. This is a view Sydney Anglicans prefer.


MATTHEW 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”


= This sounds like the end of the world. But in the Old Testament this is the image used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground.


Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”


= Isaiah writes a prophecy against Babylon where God brings Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!


Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”


= is a more universal judgment against all God's enemies - the picture of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.


Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” = describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.


Then what do we make of the next bit of Matt 24?


30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.


People are geographically challenged with the direction the Son of Man is travelling. He's not travelling TO the Earth here, but back TO the father!


Check Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


People always think this is the Lord coming back to earth. What if this is the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man, going back into heaven and being welcomed by the Ancient of Days, God the Father, after dying for us all? Isn't that just the appropriate image for God the Son returning as the "Son of Man" who was killed and now lives? That’s when he was given an eternal dominion - the church. It’s the message of Revelation, that although bad things happen, Jesus reigns. Indeed according to Ephesians we are reigning in heaven with him now - even as our bodies remain here on earth.


Back to Matthew 24:31 “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”


The word in the Greek is angelos, and can be translated as Angels, but can also mean messengers. This is why it’s the GOSPEL view - it's all about Jesus death and resurrection, and then the apostles gathering in the elect with the gospel message! Check these uses of "angelos" which is not angels but messengers or even spies!


James 2:25: "In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the SPIES and sent them off in a different direction?" (NIV, ESV says "messengers".)


Luke 9:52: "And he sent MESSENGERS ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make preparations for him."


So it all fits. Jesus is talking about his triumphant resurrection and welcome into heaven to sit by the right-hand of God where HE will reign from during this gospel era as the disciples go out to the ends of the earth with the new message of salvation that replaces the temple.


If I haven't explained it enough, here are Reformed Sydney Anglican Ministers doing a better job.


The first half of Matthew 24 - the readings start at 22:00 minutes in and then the talk.

The second half of Matthew 24 - readings start at 21 minutes in.

(Also, please do not text that mobile number questions as it is only for during the service.)


The Sydney Anglican view is controversial - but this paper compares this and DA Carson and other theologians on this passage. https://thematthewphile.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/matthew-24-25-nt4-2008-lecture-notes.pdf

 

[keras]

I am the one saying we experience now the seals and bowls etc NOW - and have done so for the last 2000 years.

I have always said that the first Five Seals were opened at the time of Jesus' Ascension. There could hardly be worse wars, famines, plagues and persecution of Christians. It is the forthcoming Sixth Seal which will change the world and lead up to the glorious Return of Jesus.

From Revelation 1 we see John wanting HIS generation to hear and obey it.

This is a wild assertion; John knew very well that the Revelation of Jesus was to show His servants what must soon take place. Rev 1:1
His servants throughout the age and we Christians today. "Soon", is obviously in Gods timing.

MATTHEW 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”


= This sounds like the end of the world. But in the Old Testament this is the image used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground.

Speculative guesswork!
The sun and moon have been darkened before, They will be again -at least twice; at the Sixth Seal and at the Return.
Anyway, conflating the SS with the Return, is plainly wrong, as we are told the moon will shine blood red at the SS and have no light at the Return.
2 events, prophesied to take place years apart.

 

[eclipsenow]

This is a wild assertion; John knew very well that the Revelation of Jesus was to show His servants what must soon take place. Rev 1:1
His servants throughout the age and we Christians today. "Soon", is obviously in Gods timing.

Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way western people, especially Americans, read Revelation. Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know. (Matthew 24.)

Instead of a future timetable to take utterly subjective and random guesses at, John indicates that Revelation is about the Roman persecution of the church that is about to start. 4 times in Chapter One he indicates it is to his generation:-

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (verse 1)
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3). How could the early church obey something about 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near." (verse 3)
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Verse 9 - ESV) John ALREADY shares in their TRIBULATION! John was already in jail for his gospel work. He himself models what we are to do when we encounter trials and tribulations - overcome with "patient endurance".

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to stay faithful in the time between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day. John uses powerful biblical symbols to describe (not prescribe) what this time will be like. And it could be a long time before Jesus Returns. The number 1000 is commonly used to mean "a gazillion" - like when the Psalm says God owns all the sheep on "a thousand hills." What about the other million hills - does God not own all those two? There are many places where 1000 is used like “a gazillion - a great huge number.”

The Roman persecution of the church “must soon take place”, John wanted his generation to “take to heart what is written” and obey his message, “because the time is near” and because he already is a “partner in the tribulation” and is setting the example with “patient endurance”.

It’s so clear I can only conclude futurists cut Chapter One out of their bibles.

 

[keras]

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline.

Revelation gives us the correct sequence of things to happen from when Jesus ascended, to the final Eternal state.
It is Biblical, we can trust this information and to mess around with it carries a heavy penalty.
Your call.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24 is one of the hardest passages in the bible to put aside futurist presuppositions for a few reasons: futurists want the whole thing to be about the End Times because that gives them modern Israel and 1948 to start drawing up timetables around. It’s also complicated because Jesus is answering 2 questions - the end of that temple then the end of the world in the future.


Many futurists just project the whole chapter into the Last Days - and take Jesus descriptions of the Romans sacking Jerusalem and the temple in AD70 to be about some future, still hypothetical third temple. This will not do! Jesus was not lying to the disciples! For chapters and chapters he had been warning the disciples against the current system. He has wept over Jerusalem, his Jerusalem! He has ranted about the corrupt Pharisees, the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit, the overturning of the money changer’s tables, against the way they accepted the last few coins from the widow - “all she had to live on!”, and even said for those who had faith “this mountain falling into the sea” would not be the end of their forgiveness from God - even if the temple mountain fell into the sea!


If they were listening, they should have understood the temple’s time was up. But the disciples were gawking at the ‘large stones’ of the temple like country bumpkins in the big city. They’re still trusting in the might of the temple system. So Jesus warns them it’s all coming down! Within ‘this generation’. He’s still trying to get them thinking about relationship with God in gospel terms. They’re just not getting it yet!


But then Jesus switches from talking about ‘these things’ in front of them - the temple and the Romans destroying it within that generation - to the more distant end of the world on “That day” in verse 36. It’s going to be a while. “But about that day or hour no one knows,” and the parable of the thief, the foolish servant, and the ten maidens and their lamps all illustrate how vigilant and patient the church will have to be as we wait for “That day”.


OK then! The first half is all about the temple, and the second half from verse 36 is all about “That day”. This is confirmed in other ways as well. The destruction of the temple is predictable, local, and escapable. You can do something about it! When you see the Romans coming - run away! Flee! But “That day” will be universal, unpredictable, and totally inescapable. These are very different things.


It all seems neat and tidy - yeah right! Because the great wrinkle in dividing Matthew 24 around verse 36 is 27 to 30 - the “Lightning from east to west”, sun and moon darkened and heavens shaken stuff! That sounds pretty end-of-the-world!


So what are we to do with this? Let’s look at the GOSPEL OPTION which makes sense of the Old Testament use of this language. We need to put aside our preconceived ideas and systematically go through this apocalyptic symbolism and try and find what is being quoted from the Old Testament. This is a view Sydney Anglicans prefer.


MATTHEW 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”


= This sounds like the end of the world. But in the Old Testament this is the image used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground.


Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”


= Isaiah writes a prophecy against Babylon where God brings Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!


Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”


= is a more universal judgment against all God's enemies - the picture of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.


Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” = describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.


Then what do we make of the next bit of Matt 24?


30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.


People are geographically challenged with the direction the Son of Man is travelling. He's not travelling TO the Earth here, but back TO the father!


Check Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


People always think this is the Lord coming back to earth. What if this is the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man, going back into heaven and being welcomed by the Ancient of Days, God the Father, after dying for us all? Isn't that just the appropriate image for God the Son returning as the "Son of Man" who was killed and now lives? That’s when he was given an eternal dominion - the church. It’s the message of Revelation, that although bad things happen, Jesus reigns. Indeed according to Ephesians we are reigning in heaven with him now - even as our bodies remain here on earth.


Back to Matthew 24:31 “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”


The word in the Greek is angelos, and can be translated as Angels, but can also mean messengers. This is why it’s the GOSPEL view - it's all about Jesus death and resurrection, and then the apostles gathering in the elect with the gospel message! Check these uses of "angelos" which is not angels but messengers or even spies!


James 2:25: "In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the SPIES and sent them off in a different direction?" (NIV, ESV says "messengers".)


Luke 9:52: "And he sent MESSENGERS ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make preparations for him."


So it all fits. Jesus is talking about his triumphant resurrection and welcome into heaven to sit by the right-hand of God where HE will reign from during this gospel era as the disciples go out to the ends of the earth with the new message of salvation that replaces the temple.


If I haven't explained it enough, here are Reformed Sydney Anglican Ministers doing a better job.


The first half of Matthew 24 - the readings start at 22:00 minutes in and then the talk.

The second half of Matthew 24 - readings start at 21 minutes in.

(Also, please do not text that mobile number questions as it is only for during the service.)


The Sydney Anglican view is controversial - but this paper compares this and DA Carson and other theologians on this passage. https://thematthewphile.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/matthew-24-25-nt4-2008-lecture-notes.pdf

Luke 21:24 didn't take place in 70AD as many claim, it's a future event unfulfilled as scripture clearly teaches below

The verses below are speaking to those who will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the "Future" Fulfilling of the Gentiles, The Great Tribulation, and Second Coming of Jesus in the Heavens

Luke 21:22-28KJV
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[eclipsenow]

Luke 21:24 didn't take place in 70AD as many claim, it's a future event unfulfilled as scripture clearly teaches below

So when the disciples asked about that temple they were staring at with their own eyes, the very one Jesus had already turned tables over and declared cursed (via the dead fig tree and mountain falling into the sea) Jesus turned around and lied to them and secretly spoke about a still hypothetical third temple? I don't think so.

 

[eclipsenow]

Revelation gives us the correct sequence of things to happen from when Jesus ascended, to the final Eternal state.
It is Biblical, we can trust this information and to mess around with it carries a heavy penalty.
Your call.

Too bad the number sequences are thoroughly symbolic in nature with the 7's inside other 7's like a Matryoshka doll.

 

[eclipsenow]

You're basically telling everyone you don't have to watch for the signs Christ and Paul have laid out.

Exactly! Because there was only one "sign" to look out for! The Romans coming! Now you're getting it. See, you look out for the Romans because there is something you can DO about it - run away! You look out for the Romans coming because it's a local, avoidable thing.

But THAT DAY will be universal, inescapable, and unavoidable. That Day you will only be safe by being the good tenant, the wise maiden who kept her lamps burning, the good sheep instead of the bad goat. (Next chapter.) It's about the quality of the person's relationship to Jesus, NOT knowing a timetable or set of signs, that saves them.

Both say "watch". You are stating the opposite. That's why it's hard to take your posts seriously. It will happen in someone's lifetime

Futurists have been saying this President of the USA or that President General of the Soviet Union are the AOD blah blah blah since before you were born. They WILL be wasting time playing this game until the Lord returns, so with tens of millions of futurists guessing, SOMEONE's got to guess the right date by sheer mathematical statistical laws! But it won't be anything to do with the accuracy of their 'signs' - because Jesus wants us to stay trusting in him and living holy lives - rather than running around with puffed up notions that "We know the future, nyah nyah nyah nya nyah, nyeer!" Seriously? That's just alien to everything I read about Jesus and the apostles warning us to stay true to Jesus in these Last Days - 2000 years and counting. (They started in Acts 2 - Peter's Pentecost sermon. Check it out!)

The only thing to fear is the unknown.

No - it's that my own sin or the devil might deceive me into not trusting the Lord the way I should. See? Futurists so value their silly timetables that they forget what the very gospel is all about! Their signs and 'crazy wall' are more important!