Day of the Lord all happens together

[JulieB67]

What did you mean by this exactly?

Satan and his angels. We can know by these verses that this is definitely future.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Now I realize that some Amils believe this is his "little season" but others like myself believe this happens during the tribulation. I believe he deceives most of the world at this point.

I agree. It really couldn't be more clear. I see some pre-tribs trying to say that the "apostasia" Paul referenced is not a falling away from the faith but a reference to the departure of the church from the earth. I can't take that view seriously. That would mean in 2 Thess 2:1-3 he was saying that the rapture had to occur first before...the rapture. Huh?

Yes, we are definitely on the same page with this. It's very clear to me, it's a departure from the truth/faith.

 

[JulieB67]

or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person. The fact that some parts of Scripture bring ultimate evil to a head by using an individual character to identify it probably says more about how dramatic literature operates than it does about predicting history.

It's apparent you have trusted and will take man's word over God's word and Christ's revelation. Satan who is yes the dragon and the devil will be cast down. This is not symbolic or fiction. I'm not trying to offend by why would you post someone elses opinion? Why not post scripture and why you believe or don't believe something?

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

So we are not to believe Christ - this is his Revelation (unveiling) that Satan and his angels are not cast down? Christ tells us who the stars and candlesticks are, they are symbolic for angels and the churches. Do you see any such thing in these verses that state Satan and his angels are "symbolic for anything? No.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

They overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death. This is real, not symbolism. This verse totally mirrors an earlier verse -

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

We have been told who the devil is, it's Satan, it's not symbolic language or an attitude.


If you believe this is symbolic language would you care to explain each verse without someone elses opinion?

Probably not. There are passages in the Bible which talk about a particular being who is Christ’s foe (e.g., “the man of lawlessness” in 2 Thessalonians 2 or the dragon of Revelation 12-13 who is identified as the Devil). But this kind of symbolic language is used to describe an attitude or spirit of evil rather than a single evil person.

How is it possible that attitude or spirit of evil can sit on the thrown proclaiming to be God? Again, you are trusting man's word too much imo. If you are proclaiming to be God someone will have to lay eyes on you. And this has never happened yet. No one has ever sat on the temple mount proclaiming to be God.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

He is showing himself that he is God -that's the deception. As Paul states he is disguised as an angel of light. Anyone waiting on Christ right now could fall for this very deception because it's God that will send the strong delusion because people would rather believe a lie than accept the love of the truth. Any many will fall away. That's what apostasy is. Departing from the truth.

And according to your opinion than, Paul didn't even have to give out any strict warnings because Christ could return at "anytime". Which doesn't make sense according to what he is telling them. He tells them to not be deceived by any means that the day "shall not happen"....

You are in the same boat as pretribbers on this issue it would seem.

This isn’t a scene from a horror movie

No, this isn't. It's the exact opposite of what horror movies portray. People will be thinking "peace and safety" when the true Christ returns and then bam destruction. They will be so shocked when the true Christ returns.

 

[DavidPT]

Of course it gives the interpreter the right to claim eternity begins in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump, at this time death is swallowed up in victory, eternity begins (Then Cometh The End)

When Jesus returns, (Then Cometh The End) there isn't a 1,000 year Millennium seen between verses 23-24 below as many falsely claim

1 Corinthians 15:23-24KJV
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(No 1,000 Year Kingdom Is Seen Here)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

In The Twinkling Of An Eye, Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory, Eternity Begins

1 Corinthians 15:52-54KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is one of these deals where I can somewhat meet you in the middle, so to speak, but I'm guessing, in return you can't meet me in the middle as well, though. IOW, it's all your way or no way.

While I do agree eternity obviously begins at the last trump, it only begins for those that are changed in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump. Not everyone is changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. That only applies to the saved not the lost as well. Anyone that wants to apply 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 to both the saved and the lost, that one obviously has zero clue how context is supposed to work, because in context, no way can any of those verses also be applicable to the lost.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

To apply verses 51-56 to the lost as well means one has to apply verse 57 to the lost. As if it makes sense, that anyone that is going to be cast into the LOF, verse 57 is applicable to them as well.

In the meantime, once the last trump has sounded though, there are still the lost on the planet who are still physically alive, not even dead yet. The following in Revelation 11 alone makes that crystal clear. Which also proves that it is ludicrous to apply in the twinkling of an eye to these other events as well. But let's just ignore any of this, right?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


After the 7th trumpet has already sounded, some of the following then begins happening to the lost.


And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come---and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Seriously, lol, does--an earthquake, and great hail--sound like something that affects people after they are are already dead? Or something that affects people that are not even dead yet?

Notice how this chapter ends. Does it sound like, as of verse 19, we are in the time of the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15? Or does it sound like we are in the time of the vials of wrath, Revelation 16? Keeping in mind, verse 19 is undeniably meaning after the 7th trumpet has already sounded. And that Revelation 11:19 is continued elsewhere in the book of Revelation.

Obviously, verse 19 doesn't flow into chapter 12 nor chapter 13, for example. Yet, it has to flow into some later chapter since that is a bizarre way for that chapter to end unless it flows into some later chapter. How about Revelation 16? Obviously, an earthquake and great hail makes more sense per Revelation 16 than it does Revelation 20:11-15. Unless we should just ignore common sense or something.


-----
EDITED yet again in order to make something a bit clearer in regards to my points involving 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and the last trump.

 

[Truth7t7]

In the meantime, once the last trump has sounded though, there are still the lost on the planet who are still physically alive, not even dead yet. The following in Revelation 11 alone makes that crystal clear. But let's just ignore any of this, right?

Your claim is "False"

Jesus Christ Returns At The "Last Trump" In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

(Destroyed Them "All")

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[DavidPT]

Your claim is "False"

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Exactly like I guessed. Even though I was willing to meet you in the middle, so to speak, in return you couldn't do the same. IOW, it's only your way or no way. Instead of what you just posted, why don't you go through what I posted then show where and how I was wrong about those things. What you submitted here does nothing to prove I was wrong about 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, that I was wrong about Revelation 11 and the last trump, that after the last trump sounds, not all of the lost are even dead yet.

But it doesn't really matter I guess, since I can't take an interpreter like you serious to begin with, the fact I already know the bizarre way you interpret the 70 weeks, that you insist they are literal weeks, not weeks of years, and that all 70 of them all applicable to the final days of this age. As if I, or anyone for that matter, should be listening to anyone that can't even figure out that it is weeks of years, not literal weeks. Yet, you somehow have all these other things figured out when you can't even figure out these 70 weeks properly.

 

[Truth7t7]

Exactly like I guessed. Even though I was willing to meet you in the middle, so to speak, in return you couldn't do the same. IOW, it's only your way or no way. Instead of what you just posted, why don't you go through what I posted then show where and how I was wrong about those things.

I did show you how you're wrong, and you apparently don't like it

You falsely claim "After" the 7th Trump unsaved humans are left living on this earth "Wrong"

Jesus returns at the 7th/Last Trump and all the unsaved are destroyed (The End)

Just one verse below shows this biblical truth, when Jesus returns its fire time (Destroyed Them All) not some but (All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Satan and his angels. We can know by these verses that this is definitely future.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Now I realize that some Amils believe this is his "little season" but others like myself believe this happens during the tribulation. I believe he deceives most of the world at this point.

I'm Amil, but I'm not one of the Amils who believe that is describing Satan's little season. Notice there that Satan being cast out of heaven implies that he is no longer able to accuse believers "before our God day and night" at that point. Do you agree with that? If so, are you not aware that no one has been able to make any charges/accusations against believers for a long time?

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Who can bring any charge/accusation against those whom God has chosen? No one, including Satan. Who can condemn us? No one, including Satan. Who can separate us from the love of Christ? No one, including Satan. With all this in mind, why would we think that Revelation 12:9-10 is talking about a future event? He hasn't been able to accuse believers before God in heaven for a long time already, so he had to have been cast out of heaven long ago already. Once Jesus defeated Him with His death and resurrection, it was time for him to go. There was no place for Satan and his angels in heaven anymore once Jesus ascended there.

Yes, we are definitely on the same page with this. It's very clear to me, it's a departure from the truth/faith.

It's very clear to me and many others as well. As I indicated, it's something that Jesus talked about (Matt 24:10-12) and something that Paul wrote about elsewhere as well (1 Timothy 4:1-2). There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the "apostasia" in 2 Thess 2:3 was talking about the departure of the church from the earth. I can't take that view seriously at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Exactly like I guessed. Even though I was willing to meet you in the middle, so to speak, in return you couldn't do the same. IOW, it's only your way or no way. Instead of what you just posted, why don't you go through what I posted then show where and how I was wrong about those things.

He never does that. Trust me. Don't even bother trying to get him to do that because it's just a waste of time. All he does is tell people they're wrong but never explains why. He just repeats his own beliefs, but is never willing to take on challenges to his view and explain why exactly someone else's view can't be true. You and I disagree on some things, obviously, but at least we each take the time to look at each other's points and explain why we disagree with them.

What you submitted here does nothing to prove I was wrong about 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, that I was wrong about Revelation 11 and the last trump, that after the last trump sounds, not all of the lost are even dead yet.

But it doesn't really matter I guess, since I can't take an interpreter like you serious to begin with, the fact I already know the bizarre way you interpret the 70 weeks, that you insist they are literal weeks, not weeks of years, and that all 70 of them all applicable to the final days of this age. As if I, or anyone for that matter, should be listening to anyone that can't even figure out that it is weeks of years, not literal weeks. Yet, you somehow have all these other things figured out when you can't even figure out these 70 weeks properly.

Exactly right. His beliefs are all over the place and he has some that are all his own, such as his belief that the 70 weeks are literal 7 day weeks (490 literal days).

 

[DavidPT]

Your claim is "False"

Jesus Christ Returns At The "Last Trump" In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

(Destroyed Them "All")

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

What I am basically arguing against is this. The moment the last trumpet sounds, then a split second later, we are then in the time of 1 Corinthians 15:28, that this is ludicrous. As if God is going to be in such hurry about things that He puts these events into hyper warp speed, where , within one split second, the events I already brought up per Revelation 11, these are fulfilled, and not only those events, the great white throne judgment is also fulfilled, all in this same twinkling of an eye. Totally preposterous. Not that God couldn't do that if He wanted to. But why would He want to?

He didn't seem to be in any hurry about things in the beginning of creation. Everything He did in those 6 days, He could have done in a twinkling of an eye, except He obviously chose not to do that. Even per Noah's flood He could have done all of that in a split second, then a split second later Noah has once again found dry land, thus the flood waters were gone. Yet, God didn't choose to do it that way.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What I am basically arguing against is this. The moment the last trumpet sounds, then a split second later, we are then in the time of 1 Corinthians 15:28, that this is ludicrous. As if God is going to be in such hurry about things that He puts these events into hyper warp speed, where , within one split second, the events I already brought up per Revelation 11, these are fulfilled, and not only those events, the great white throne judgment is also fulfilled, all in this same twinkling of an eye. Totally preposterous. Not that God couldn't do that if He wanted to. But why would He want to?

Why will millions of bodies be changed all at once in an instant at the last trumpet when Christ returns? We know that will happen, right? Why? Not because God is in a hurry, right? Yet, for some reason, you have concluded that if other things that happen on that day happen quickly it would somehow mean that God was in a hurry. Please explain that logic.

But, really, why does it matter how long each of the things that will happen that day take? I don't see any reason why that matters.

In terms of the great white throne judgment, it's pretty clear to me that it occurs within the realm of eternity since it indicates that heaven and earth will have passed away before that occurs (Revelation 20:11). Speaking of preposterous, I think it's preposterous to think that the judgment would occur within the realm of time. Just think how long it would take for Him to judge billions of people one by one within the realm of time. That is as preposterous as it gets.

He didn't seem to be in any hurry about things in the beginning of creation. Everything He did in those 6 days, He could have done in a twinkling of an eye, except He obviously chose not to do that. Even per Noah's flood He could have done all of that in a split second, then a split second later Noah has once again found dry land, thus the flood waters were gone. Yet, God didn't choose to do it that way.

Again, what difference does this make? Why are you making a big deal out of how long the events that are said to occur at the seventh/last trumpet will take?

 

[JulieB67]

With all this in mind, why would we think that Revelation 12:9-10 is talking about a future event? He hasn't been able to accuse believers before God in heaven for a long time already, so he had to have been cast out of heaven long ago already.

It states he's been cast down to earth, not locked up in the pit at this point.


Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

When was Satan cast down to the earth along with his angels? Because you notice that it's the blood of the lamb and their testimony is what helps them overcome him. So we are talking about Christians.

And if he's in the pit right now for the very purpose of not being able to deceive anyone, what sense does that verse 12 make? It specifically states the devil is come down unto "you". It states woe to the inhabiters of "earth". Why this warning if Satan is locked in a pit right now so he can't deceive the nations anymore? And again, this warning is given after Christ has already been crucified because it's the blood of the lamb that comes to play.

I still think Satan can accuse but that has no bearing on condemnation or being charged.

 

[keras]

People will be thinking "peace and safety" when the true Christ returns and then bam destruction. They will be so shocked when the true Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 does not refer to the Return of Jesus.
That glorious Day, heralded by the shout of the Archangel and the trump of God, 1 Thess 4:16, cannot be the same as when the Lord sends His fiery wrath, described in over 100 Prophesies as a sudden and shocking disaster, caused by a blast of superheated matter from the sun. Psalms 50:1-4, Revelation 6:12-17

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It states he's been cast down to earth, not locked up in the pit at this point.


Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

When was Satan cast down to the earth along with his angels? Because you notice that it's the blood of the lamb and their testimony is what helps them overcome him. So we are talking about Christians.

And if he's in the pit right now for the very purpose of not being able to deceive anyone, what sense does that verse 12 make? It specifically states the devil is come down unto "you". It states woe to the inhabiters of "earth". Why this warning if Satan is locked in a pit right now so he can't deceive the nations anymore? And again, this warning is given after Christ has already been crucified because it's the blood of the lamb that comes to play.

I still think Satan can accuse but that has no bearing on condemnation or being charged.

I wasn't even making a comment one way or another on whether that relates to his binding. I'm simply using scripture to interpret scripture to show that no one, including Satan, can make any accusations against believers anymore. That is what Paul taught. We should interpret Revelation 12 accordingly.

 

[DavidPT]

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 does not refer to the Return of Jesus.
That glorious Day, heralded by the shout of the Archangel and the trump of God, 1 Thess 4:16, cannot be the same as when the Lord sends His fiery wrath, described in over 100 Prophesies as a sudden and shocking disaster, caused by a blast of superheated matter from the sun. Psalms 50:1-4, Revelation 6:12-17

My thinking on some of this, right or wrong, is such.

The way I view the DOTL(day of the Lord), the fact I see it meaning during the 6th seal, and that I then see the 6th seal being when the vials of wrath are being poured out, thus the DOTL obviously involving more than just a single 24 hour day, that the beginning of it might not be when He initially bodily returns, yet, He returns during it, meaning at the end of the vials of wrath. One reason I think that, look at the first 6 vials, for example. No way can that be involving a single 24 hour day.

And according to what is written concerning some of those vials, the text indicates they repented not. Which then tells me that repentance is obviously still an option, except they refuse to do it. I do not see it being reasonable that repenting can still be an option after Christ has literally bodily returned. Nor do I see it being reasonable that any of the vials of wrath are taking place outside of the DOTL. Therefore, it's entirely possible that the DOTL involves a portion where Christ has not yet bodily returned, but that He eventually bodily returns at the end of it, meaning during the 7th vial, yet, the previous 6 vials are also part of the DOTL, except He hasn't bodily returned yet when those vials are being poured out.

 

[keras]

No way can that be involving a single 24 hour day.

But the DOTL is a single day event:
Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:6, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8, Isaiah 47:9 Yet suddenly; in a single day, disaster will come upon you.....

There will be two Days of the Lord; one when He sends His fiery wrath and the Day of His glorious Return. They are separated by at least 10 years.
Trying to conflate the Sixth Seal with the Trumpets or Vials, leads to confusion and error.

 

[DavidPT]

But the DOTL is a single day event:
Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:6, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8, Isaiah 47:9 Yet suddenly; in a single day, disaster will come upon you.....

There will be two Days of the Lord; one when He sends His fiery wrath and the Day of His glorious Return. They are separated by at least 10 years.
Trying to conflate the Sixth Seal with the Trumpets or Vials, leads to confusion and error.

Let's start here then. The first 6 vials, do you agree or disagree that those are being poured out during the DOTL?

Let's compare 2 of these vials for now.

Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


If this is taking place during a single 24 hour day, which is it then? Are they being scorched with fire from the sun, obviously indicating it can't be night time nor dark outside if the sun is doing that to them, or are they being enveloped in total darkness? Yet, look at the next vial---how can there be total darkness during the time the sun is scorching men with fire? Therefore, it is not logical that both vials are involving the same day.

Of course though, some might argue, maybe not you though, none of the vials of wrath are meaning in a literal sense to begin with, therefore, none of the points I am raising even matters. Except how can they prove none of this is literal if it hasn't even happened yet? Similar things happened to Pharaoh and the Egyptians according to the OT, though. Should we not take those things literally, either?

Exodus 10:21 ¶And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.


Compare that with this.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


The OT account indicates darkness that can literally be felt. Is anyone then going to propose that what is recorded in Revelation 16:10-11, that that is not also describing darkness that can be felt? If it is not describing darkness that can be felt, what is it describing?

 

[eclipsenow]

Try actually reading what the Bible says before making your foolish and ignorant comments,
Death and destruction Caused by a Coronal Mass Ejection:

Deuteronomy 32:41 When I set my hand to judgement, My sword will devour flesh.

Isaiah 66:16 The Lord will judge with fire and many will be slain by Him.

Psalms 37:9-10 & 20 For evildoers will be no more, their place will be empty. Evil people will die, they will be incinerated and will go up in smoke.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace...on the Day the Lord takes action, all wicked peoples will be as ashes under your feet.

Zephaniah 1:3 & 11 I shall destroy humans and animals. Dire distress will come upon all the godless peoples, their blood and guts will spill over the ground.

Psalms 97:3-5 For My sword is ready and it descends upon those doomed for death. Fire goes ahead of the Lord and consumes His enemies on every side.

Isaiah 63:6 The Lord stamped on peoples in His anger, their blood poured out on the ground.

Isaiah 54:6 ...though the sky be dispersed, the earth be wasted and its inhabitants die like flies.

Jeremiah 25:33 Those whom the Lord has slain in that Day will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other.

Jeremiah 9:22 Corpses will lie like dung in the fields, like swaths behind the reaper.

Isaiah 34:3 The dead will be flung out and will cover the ground, their bodies will stink.

Isaiah 13:12 Humans will become scarce, more rare than fine gold.

Yes - as I said - most OT prophecies of the Day of the Lord about judgement are local OT civilisations that the Lord punished in their time. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and all the smaller ...ites. But there are a few that point forward to the eschatological end. Then there are the Day of the Lord verses that point forward to Salvation for God's people. So what happens in Biblical Theology is that this Day of the Lord becomes not one, but two events! The gospel events where Jesus announces the Day of the Lord has arrived - etc.

 

[DavidPT]

There will be two Days of the Lord; one when He sends His fiery wrath and the Day of His glorious Return. They are separated by at least 10 years.
Trying to conflate the Sixth Seal with the Trumpets or Vials, leads to confusion and error.

I don't know how I missed that the first time around, that there will be two days of the Lord? I find that nonsensical. Maybe you don't, but I do.

 

[eclipsenow]

Of course though, some might argue, maybe not you though, none of the vials of wrath are meaning in a literal sense to begin with, therefore, none of the points I am raising even matters. Except how can they prove none of this is literal if it hasn't even happened yet? Similar things happened to Pharaoh and the Egyptians according to the OT, though. Should we not take those things literally, either?

Great point! But the whole nature of apocalyptic writing is that it DOES quote OT ideas and events and images, whether from real events OR symbolic like Leviathan / dragons and beasts. We know this from Revelation and from a number of other Jewish apocalyptic scrolls of the times. So John is saying the Last Day will be LIKE those judgements - but so much larger and more universal and world encompassing. Which is why I'm a little astonished at some readings that try to minimise it to one region of the earth - no matter how devastating it would be for the 400 million people that live there - because it's only about 5% of the human population and WE COULD DO WORSE OURSELVES IF WE LET THOSE NUKES FLY!

But if the "Day of the Lord is one event", then what are all these details in Revelation? Let's look at the structure.

The repeating seven’s in Revelation trace 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not sequentially like some sort of future timeline but as 4 different descriptions of the history of the last 2000 years (and counting) until the Lord returns, all from 4 different themes or perspectives.

7 SEALs depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning of church period to describe)…

7 TRUMPETS depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning of the church period to describe)...

7 SIGNS depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...

7 PLAGUES depicting DESTRUCTION.

These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive. They are happening along-side each other now, and always have been since the gospel events. Note these 7's are inside each other like Matryoshka dolls rather than in sequence. That's John's technique for showing that his book is thematic, not linear. It describes this phase of history after Jesus ascension and before his return, these “Last days” (Acts 2, Hebrews 1). It does not prescribe a future timetable, thereby making the book irrelevant to John’s generation and every generation until the last. That would just be weird. More evidence here:-

 

[keras]

Let's start here then. The first 6 vials, do you agree or disagree that those are being poured out during the DOTL?

Let's compare 2 of these vials for now.

The Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is before the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials. You are shuffling Revelation to say otherwise.
The Fourth Vial, is plainly another, smaller; Coronal Mass Ejection that the massive one at the Sixth Seal. They happen frequently, but direct hits are uncommon.

If it is not describing darkness that can be felt, what is it describing?

Sure, what happened in ancient Egypt, will happen again at the Fifth Vial. I do not know how the Lord will do it.

I don't know how I missed that the first time around, that there will be two days of the Lord? I find that nonsensical. Maybe you don't, but I do.

There have been many Days when the Lord has taken action in His Creation. There are at least 2 more to come.
You cannot combine what is prophesied on His Day of wrath, with the glorious Day He Returns. At the next DOTL, the sudden and shocking worldwide disaster; the Sixth Seal and graphically described in over 100 Prophesies, with the not unexpected Return, 1 Thess 4:16, Matthew 16:27, when He will dispose of the armies attacking Jerusalem and chain up Satan.

most OT prophecies of the Day of the Lord about judgement are local OT civilisations that the Lord punished in their time. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and all the smaller ...ites. But there are a few that point forward to the eschatological end.

MOST of the Bible prophesies point to the end times. Proved by how the historical and Biblical record of what has happened, does not match with what the Prophets plainly state will happen.
Be specific; for example tell us when Zephaniah 1:14-18 occurred. Who does it, who is destroyed and when did it happen.

An interesting verse is in Zephaniah 3:10 My worshippers, dispersed beyond the River of AEthopia, will bring offerings to Me.
These people are mentioned in Isaiah 18:1-7 and refer to America, as the River of AEthopia is an ancient name for the Atlantic Ocean.