Day of the Lord all happens together

[Truth7t7]

So when the disciples asked about that temple they were staring at with their own eyes, the very one Jesus had already turned tables over and declared cursed (via the dead fig tree and mountain falling into the sea) Jesus turned around and lied to them and secretly spoke about a still hypothetical third temple? I don't think so.

Jesus Christ spoke of a symbolic destruction of the Temple seen, and the Temple destroyed was his literal body as scripture clearly teaches below

"Destroy This Temple" as Jesus and the Pharisees viewed the temple that took 46 years to build

Interpretation: But he spake of the temple of his body

"Yes" Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment, would be found in the court of the Pharisees literal interpretation

Once Again, 66-70AD Jerusalems destruction had absolutely "Nothing" to do with fulfillment of Matthew Chapter 24, Mark Chapter 13, or Luke Chapter 21

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[DavidPT]

The pit is symbolic of something. Him roaming the earth is symbolic of something. Futurists make the mistake of approaching Revelation as a future-timetable when it's a series of theological images preaching the gospel to suffering Christians. It describes, roughly, what life will be like between Jesus Resurrection and his Return. There will be the temptations of both persecution and prosperity. Watch out!

The "Millennium" isn't a literal amount of time. Instead John is using the common Hebrew number symbolism of a very long time. The use of 1000 in the Hebrew is often like the use of 'a gazillion' in English. It just means a lot, or the complete number of. EG: Psalm 50 the “Cattle on 1000 hills” - what about the other million hills on earth?

EG: Deuteronomy 1:11 - is God only going to increase Israel 1000 fold? Only? What about the “New Israel” - us - the church? Limited to a thousandfold increase from their numbers back then?

EG: Psalm 91:7 - is it 1000 or 10,000 - the verse uses these interchangeably?

EG: Deuteronomy 7:9 - is God only faithful for 1000 generations and then becomes unfaithful on the 1001st generation?

EG: Psalm 105:8 - is it 1000 generations or forever?

EG: Psalms 84:10 - Is one day with God’s people better than 1000 literal days or 2.7 years, or is this a qualitative assessment of where it is better to DWELL for a long time?

The number 1000 is either a picture of forever - or a great many number. I’m an Amil in that I believe that Revelation 20 teaches us there will be a great number of years between the Lord’s resurrection and his return. We’ve been in these '1000 years' for 2000 years and counting.

But what are we to make of Satan and this pit?
Surely he’s alive and active now? That’s a good question - but it helps us understand Revelation better. Rev 13 is a picture of Satan inspiring the Roman government persecution against God’s people. It's a warning that this will not only happen under the Romans, but creeps up throughout history. But the picture of the safety of God’s people in the next chapter should also comfort Christians who went through Hitler’s Holocaust, or Soviet oppression, or even Chinese or North Korean oppression today. So Satan is very much alive and active today.

But he is ALSO bound - at exactly the same time. How does this work? We’ve got to understand the imagery is not a geographic reality - Satan being bound in a literal pit - but a theological statement. Satan is bound with regard to 'deceiving the nations' as the gospel goes forward. That shows how ineffectual he is to prevent the growth of God's kingdom. There are now roughly a million Christians in IRAN - where there is intense persecution of Christians. As God's gospel charges into new lands, Satan's ability to 'deceive the nations' is in retreat. The article below summarises this for us:-

In my mind, though I tend to believe the pit might be literal, I'm not insisting that that is the only option, the point being as follows, assuming the pit might not be literal. Revelation 20 depicts satan chained, then cast into, then locked up, in a pit. Therefore, it is not reasonable if when he is depicted like that that he is also depicted persecuting the woman that brought forth Jesus, for example. That he is depicted walking about freely, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he might devour. That is not compatible with imagery involving someone that is depicted bound in a pit.

If the Bible is using real world imagery, the imagery has to make logical sense. In the real world if a lion was trapped in a pit, this same lion would not also be walking about freely outside of the pit at the same time. The lion would have to be omnipresent in order to do something like that. Clearly, only God has omnipresent abilities, lions certainly don't, nor does satan.

Even if one argues that when satan is in the pit it is only to prevent him from deceiving the nations, that this has zero to do with him walking about freely, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he might devour---so what? The imagery simply isn't compatible because only someone with omnipresent abilities could be physically in more than one place at a time. Clearly, being chained up, cast into a pit, then locked up in does not remotely fit imagery depicting this same one walking about freely outside of the pit at the same time. That paints an illogical picture, that satan, who is not God, that he is also omnipresent like God is because he can be in the pit locked away and at the same time, this same satan can also be walking about freely outside of the pit.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Take this account, for example. Imagine while satan is standing there talking to God like that, that this same satan is also still going to and fro in the earth, and walking up and down in it, at the same time. Totally preposterous of course, since satan would have to have omnipresent abilities in order to do that. In the same way then, imagine when satan is depicted locked up in the pit, he is also walking about freely outside of the pit at the same time. There is no logic to it.

 

[JulieB67]

Before we even get to verse 11, verse 9 already undeniably tells us that satan has been cast out into the earth, therefore, verse 11 is obviously meaning after he has been cast out into the earth. Yet, you insist his being cast out into the earth is still future. And if true, that means we can't apply anything recorded in verse 11 to past Christians over the past 2000 years because verse 11 is still future according to your interpretation as to when he is cast out into the earth.

I'm not exactly sure about your point. I think verse 7 on down is future. I believe Michael and his angels are with Satan and his at this point in time. Once that battle happens they will be cast down to earth.

There will be specific Christians during the tribulation period that will be tried and give testimony and love not their loves to the death. I'm not implying anything about the past 2000 years. I'm talking the tribulation period. He and his angels will be cast down and that will start the tribulation period. Revelation 12 covers past and future events.

Verse 12 even states he has a short time. I believe this is the time of the tribulation.


Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


That's my belief.

I'm an example of someone that can agree with Amils concerning some things without having to be an Amil in order to do so.

I can share beliefs as well, especially concerning a pretrib rapture which I certainly don't believe.

I was just curious as when do they believe Satan and his angels were cast down. Because I believe in the reality of that- not that it's symbolic in nature. And since I believe that, I believe it's future because it's the blood of the lamb and the word of the testimony that comes into play. I certainly don't believe Satan and his angels have arrived yet to deceive the entire world -playing savior, disguised as an angel of light, etc. Many it would seem believe this is symbolic in nature. I don't. The word certainly doesn't state it is. I believe angels, including Satan look like us, they certainly have mass, can eat, etc. They will be here sometime in the future and as Paul states, one has to have the complete gospel armour on to fight the wiles of the devil, that means his trickery which plays into the deception that will ensnare the entire world. And to be able to stand in that "evil day" How else can he deceive the entire world? Which is what the word states happens. When he's finally bound it's to insure he will not be able to deceive the nations anymore for that time period.

 

[JulieB67]

44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

That's because most of the world will believe he's already returned. But you wouldn't understand that so I'm done trying to explain it to you. I'll leave you to your videos and man's word.

Exactly! Because there was only one "sign" to look out for! The Romans coming! Now you're getting it. See, you look out for the Romans because there is something you can DO about it - run away! You look out for the Romans coming because it's a local, avoidable thing.

The warnings were not about a past event. Paul didn't even give his warnings in Jerusalem. He was in Greece.

But feel free ignore if you please.

 

[keras]

Too bad the number sequences are thoroughly symbolic in nature with the 7's inside other 7's like a Matryoshka doll.

It is quite illogical and a violation of scripture to make given numbers symbolic.
Seven is a number often used by God, as denoting completion.

Symbols are representative, or descriptive of, something real and actual.
You say the thousand years, mentioned six times in Revelation 20, are symbolic of an indefinite time. Explain to us what the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls, which obviously have not yet happened; represent.

 

[eclipsenow]

Jesus Christ spoke of a symbolic destruction of the Temple seen, and the Temple destroyed was his literal body as scripture clearly teaches below

No - he spoke of not one stone being left on another. The disciples were looking at the stones, awestruck by them. Context is all important here. See, the problem you have is both things can be true - Jesus body can be the TRUE temple where God and man meet, where the ultimate sacrifice is paid, that is destroyed and built again in 3 days. But he can ALSO be judging the literal historical temple. The context of Matthew 24 tends to that. The cursed fig tree because Israel is not producing good fruit, the house of prayer being turned into a den of robbers, the teachers of the law robbing widows and then taking that widow's last few coins - all she had to live on, the fact that THIS MOUNTAIN could fall into the sea and they would still have faith and a relationship with God - all points to the judgement on Israel and the temple system. There's no reason to read it metaphorically or symbolically - especially as all the things surrounding AD70 are also in the passage: kingdom against kingdom, earthquakes, famines, wars, and false messiahs. They all happened! History shows us.

Also, Acts shows us that the gospel reached the ends of the earth by the time AD70 clocked around. Basically the gospel saturating Rome itself was the 'ends of the earth' as the empire started to be permeated by the gospel. The kingdom of God was spreading across the whole known world. Then the end would come - the end of the temple that is.

Futurists want to FORCE this chunk of Matthew 24 to be symbolic when it's literal and was literally fulfilled within THAT generation. The more theological implications of Jesus discussing his body as the temple were also fulfilled within that week - but as I said - both can be true at the same time. Your job is to prove that Jesus isn't talking about the literal temple literally being destroyed within a generation - within 40 years.

"Destroy This Temple" as Jesus and the Pharisees viewed the temple that took 46 years to build

Interpretation: But he spake of the temple of his body

So you've been reading the KJV so much that you use the word 'spake'? Really? Please consider the NIV - I know people on the translation board and it has access to much earlier and better manuscripts than the KJV did when it was formed. We owe the KJV our gratitude for it's place in history - but there's no need to use this archaic tomb any more. Please!

"Yes" Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment, would be found in the court of the Pharisees literal interpretation

Once Again, 66-70AD Jerusalems destruction had absolutely "Nothing" to do with fulfillment of Matthew Chapter 24, Mark Chapter 13, or Luke Chapter 21

No - it had everything to do with answering what the disciples actually asked - the end of that temple. John 2 is way earlier in the story and just after the wedding at Cana. It's a theological statement without actually physically standing in front of the temple with his disciples. It's another true thing - but again - not at the expense of other true things Jesus said. You're the one with the burden of proof. Just plucking John 2 out of context and slamming it down on Matthew 24 doesn't work.

 

[eclipsenow]

It is quite illogical and a violation of scripture to make given numbers symbolic.

It's quite illogical and a violation of hermeneutics to NOT investigate how Jews used their language, and their number symbolism is part of that. It's about as bad as trying to develop your own bible interpretation without knowing ancient Hebrew or Greek.

Reading Revelation literally is like trying to read Ancient Hieroglyphs without a translator. What's the code?


In this case the code is Jewish number symbolism - the theological importance of various numbers - and various OT symbols and how John applied them to his day.


There are many places one can learn more about these numbers, but Dr Paul Barnett is a great start and here is his blog page on numbers. http://paulbarnett.info/tag/understanding-revelation/


6 is the number of man (the day we were created on, the days of the week we work.)


7 = perfection, the fullness of time, God's control over history. Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns = perfect knowledge and perfect power.


3.5 means a limited time


or short period. These bad things will break out now and then but in God's mercy he limits the time in which this judgement is handed out. It's the difference between knowing there will be wars - and being misled that something as bad as WW2 might drag on forever. So the number 3.5 is a ratio (half of 7) and means a limited period of catastrophe. But there's just nothing literal about it.


12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.


1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion' EG: Psalm 50 - "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." If the thousand here is literal, what about the other millions of hills on earth? Is God really only in charge of 0.001% off the hills?

 

[eclipsenow]

I'll leave you to your videos and man's word.

I'm trying to understand God's word by actually respecting the hermeneutical process of respecting the language and ancient culture enough to try and understand how the original audience would have received these messages. If you have a better discipline than hermeneutics to understand the bible, I'm all ears. Until then, I'm afraid you're the one that's reading Julie's word - stuff you're just reading into the passage yourself.

The warnings were not about a past event. Paul didn't even give his warnings in Jerusalem. He was in Greece.

But Jesus did issue this warning to his disciples about that temple. I have no idea what point you are trying to make here, but it didn't land. There's context, which is reading the surrounding concepts and understanding the point being made in relation to them. Then there's just asserting random things from other unrelated ideas. I hope you can learn the difference.

 

[keras]

It's quite illogical and a violation of hermeneutics to NOT investigate how Jews used their language, and their number symbolism is part of that. It's about as bad as trying to develop your own bible interpretation without knowing ancient Hebrew or Greek.

Reading Revelation literally is like trying to read Ancient Hieroglyphs without a translator. What's the code?


In this case the code is Jewish number symbolism - the theological importance of various numbers - and various OT symbols and how John applied them to his day.


There are many places one can learn more about these numbers, but Dr Paul Barnett is a great start and here is his blog page on numbers. http://paulbarnett.info/tag/understanding-revelation/


6 is the number of man (the day we were created on, the days of the week we work.)


7 = perfection, the fullness of time, God's control over history. Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns = perfect knowledge and perfect power.


3.5 means a limited time


or short period. These bad things will break out now and then but in God's mercy he limits the time in which this judgement is handed out. It's the difference between knowing there will be wars - and being misled that something as bad as WW2 might drag on forever. So the number 3.5 is a ratio (half of 7) and means a limited period of catastrophe. But there's just nothing literal about it.


12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.


1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion' EG: Psalm 50 - "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." If the thousand here is literal, what about the other millions of hills on earth? Is God really only in charge of 0.001% off the hills?

I agree that God does use numbers symbolically.
But the specific use of 7 in Revelation for the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is what will actually happen. Most people believe this; your idea of making them meaningless, is wrong and makes His servants today; the Christian peoples, in the dark about what God has planned for our future.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not exactly sure about your point.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Yet, there is a matter of this war in heaven that has to be factored in. Something significant has to cause this war to break out to begin with, don't you think? 2000 years ago there was something significant, Christ and His dying on the cross, then rising from the dead, followed by Him ascending back into heaven. What in the future can trump that in order to be better reasons that cause this war to break out?


Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne

First we see this, then a verse or two later we see this.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


It seems to me then, verse 5 and Jesus being caught up unto God, and to His throne, that this might have something to do with why this war breaks out to begin with. Obviously, Jesus was caught up unto God, and to His throne, 2000 years ago. And if this led to the war in heaven at the time, why would this war in heaven continue for 2000 years, then satan is finally cast out of heaven 2000 years later?

 

[eclipsenow]

I agree that God does use numbers symbolically.

Excellent!

But the specific use of 7 in Revelation for the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, is what will actually happen.

No - the most symbolic book in the bible does NOT use the numbers literally. John is describing the kinds of things between then and the Lord's return, NOT a specific timetable. The 7s are inside each other! Check it out!

The repeating seven’s in Revelation trace 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not sequentially like some sort of future timeline but as 4 different descriptions of the history of the last 2000 years (and counting) until the Lord returns, all from 4 different themes or perspectives.
7 SEALs depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning of church history to describe)…
7 TRUMPETS depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
7 SIGNS depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
7 PLAGUES depicting DESTRUCTION.

These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive. They are happening along-side each other now, and always have been since the gospel events. Note these 7's are inside each other like Matryoshka dolls rather than in sequence. That's John's technique for showing that his book is thematic, not linear. It describes this phase of history after Jesus ascension and before his return, these “Last days” (Acts 2, Hebrews 1). It does not prescribe a future timetable, thereby making the book irrelevant to John’s generation and every generation until the last. That would just be weird. More evidence here:-

Most people believe this; your idea of making them meaningless, is wrong and makes His servants today; the Christian peoples, in the dark about what God has planned for our future.

Not at all! Most FUTURISTS think Revelation has to be all about THEM and THEIR agendas for the world. (There's nothing like saying "XYZ person I don't like is the antichrist!" Yeah, that will show them.)

But is 1 Corinthians meaningless to us? After all, it was written to a church in Corinth 2000 years ago!

What about Galatians? Ephesians? Etc?

Just because John wrote it to the 7 churches (again, there were about 10 large churches in Asia Minor at the time but 7 was more symbolic) about 2000 years ago does not mean it's MEANINGLESS TO US!

In fact, it's the only way we KNOW it has meaning for us! We can learn from their example. We can read it theologically.
But the moment you make it futurist - you make it a timetable. How boring! How ridiculous. That would mean the majority of the book has been irrelevant to the church for 2000 years. Nope, nothing to see here - it's for those people at the end of time.

Or worse - it's been a huge source of UTTER DISAPPOINTMENT rather than a source of hope. How many timetables have collapsed over the last few thousand years from those poor people who crop up in each age and think it's all about them? Do you know how much disappointment that is? Have you calculated how many futurist timetables have failed? How many Christian faiths have been shipwrecked because they were based on some silly timetable happening in someone's lifetime - and then it failed?

Bookmark The Bible Project. Keep it there if - God willing - you find it is 1st January 2027 and the temple still hasn't been built for your AOD adventures to occur.

 

[keras]

it's been a huge source of UTTER DISAPPOINTMENT rather than a source of hope

This is typical of your assumptions, Christians who read all of Revelation can see how God will deal with Satan and how His plan works toward the Eternal state, with only those humans who have proven their faith and trust in God, becoming immortal in heaven on earth: forever.

Bookmark The Bible Project

Cartoon propaganda, the worst kind of misinformation and promotion of a false agenda since Star Trek.

 

[JulieB67]

What in the future can trump that in order to be better reasons that cause this war to break out?

I believe we are on God's timetable. This will happen to start the tribulation. That's the ultimate thing that will make this come to pass.

I think this ties into it,

Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Once he stands up this will start the tribulation. A period in time like no other or will ever be. Christ states the same thing. So how can anything in the past trump that time period? To me personally I can't think of anything worse than Satan and his angels being cast down to deceive the entire world. And he knows he has a short time.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

How can this not be the tribulation period?

And if this led to the war in heaven at the time, why would this war in heaven continue for 2000 years, then satan is finally cast out of heaven 2000 years later?

I don't believe that Revelation 12 as being one event happening right after one another. There's alot to cover in that chapter. And I don't see Christ's crucifiction as pointed out as being what started the war.

So you believe his being cast down is symbolic in nature I assume as well? Since it's obviously you believe this happened 2000 years ago?

Again, these verses mirror one another-

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

We are reading Christ's revelation to John who is writing this. We see what was sent to the churches. We know the devil (Satan) is going to be here casting people in prison to be tried. Do you honestly believe this has already happened?

 

[JulieB67]

but it didn't land.

Of course it didn't.

 

[eclipsenow]

I believe we are on God's timetable. This will happen to start the tribulation. That's the ultimate thing that will make this come to pass.

Not if you're reading the whole genre of Revelation wrong - and if you can't get the context of Matthew 24 right that we simply will not know when he's going to return - that kind of undermines your whole assumption on Revelation, don't it?

 

[eclipsenow]

Cartoon propaganda, the worst kind of misinformation and promotion of a false agenda since Star Trek.

Hey - lay off Star Trek I like it.
Also, Jesus spoke in parables - these guys speak through illustrated videos. Same diff - what counts is whether the theology it's based on is good. They also have plenty of in depth articles exploring their illustrated videos further - but it's so much more fun to ignore all that and just chant "cartoon propaganda."

I about 90% with Bible Project's theology - vastly closer to their position than any futurist fantasies.

Again - the Lord allowing (either of us could die before then) - what are you going to say to this forum when your 'certain' interpretation and visions concerning your CME fantasies prove to be exactly that on 1 Jan 2027?

 

[keras]

your CME fantasies

Many Bible Prophesies tell about what will happen on the Day the Lord will arise and change the world. Several are quite specific about how the Lord will use fire to destroy His enemies and that fire will come from the sun.
Your rejection of these Prophesies, simply shows the truth of the many verses which say the Lord will make those who choose false theories, spiritually blind and deaf.
God will Judge each of us and will ask; why did some believe things that are not stated in the Bible?

 

[eclipsenow]

Many Bible Prophesies tell about what will happen on the Day the Lord will arise and change the world.

Yes - they do - they're about this age then that age - not some half-breed halfway house half way neither here nor there.

Several are quite specific about how the Lord will use fire to destroy His enemies and that fire will come from the sun.

Well from the Old Testament there is certainly lots of fire, that's for sure. But it's torches, along with the soldiers and swords and horsemen that are mentioned in accompanying verses also about that particular nation being judged.

The New Testament has verses about the heavens melting - but how does the sun melt the stars again?

1st January 2027 will not have any temple in the middle east.
See you there.

Your rejection of these Prophesies

Um, I'm not rejecting them - just reading them the way the majority of Reformed Amil biblical scholarship reads them.
As far as I can tell - you're pretty much out on your own - even in futurist land. Good luck with that!

 

[keras]

Reformed Amil biblical scholarship

........Is a crock and makes Bible Prophecy into a non event that we need not be concerned about at all.
It is them who will look very silly when things do happen as plainly stated.

 

[eclipsenow]

........Is a crock and makes Bible Prophecy into a non event that we need not be concerned about at all.
It is them who will look very silly when things do happen as plainly stated.

When I read Revelation and what it has been warning Christians against, and how awful the consequences are for getting the Christian life wrong and falling away or giving up, and how seductive military power or economic security can be - the apocalyptic imagery overwhelms me sometimes. I am chastened to think again about my worldly ambitions. I am horrified into remembering that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The images are so powerful, and so visceral, that I sometimes cannot read that book. But I must. It's important to me to visit it every now and then. Because that's the point!

But when futurists read it, they see yet another timetable. Ho hum. Futurists cannot agree if it's half of the book or the majority of it that's been irrelevant to the church for 2000 years. But it's usually more. That gives them more material to work with, hey?

Millennial futurist fears are behind the rise of the Mormons, the JW's, Jonestown and Waco Texas. I'll stay with reformed Amil scholarship - it's just on saner ground and less self-contradictory than all these thousands of futurist timetables competing for attention.

I mean, you're sure you've got it right? When 666 major futurists have got it wrong before? (That's called number symbolism - see what I did there?)