Day of the Lord all happens together

[sovereigngrace]

It's apparent you have trusted and will take man's word over God's word and Christ's revelation. Satan who is yes the dragon and the devil will be cast down. This is not symbolic or fiction. I'm not trying to offend by why would you post someone elses opinion? Why not post scripture and why you believe or don't believe something?

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

So we are not to believe Christ - this is his Revelation (unveiling) that Satan and his angels are not cast down? Christ tells us who the stars and candlesticks are, they are symbolic for angels and the churches. Do you see any such thing in these verses that state Satan and his angels are "symbolic for anything? No.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

They overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death. This is real, not symbolism. This verse totally mirrors an earlier verse -

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

We have been told who the devil is, it's Satan, it's not symbolic language or an attitude.


If you believe this is symbolic language would you care to explain each verse without someone elses opinion?


How is it possible that attitude or spirit of evil can sit on the thrown proclaiming to be God? Again, you are trusting man's word too much imo. If you are proclaiming to be God someone will have to lay eyes on you. And this has never happened yet. No one has ever sat on the temple mount proclaiming to be God.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

He is showing himself that he is God -that's the deception. As Paul states he is disguised as an angel of light. Anyone waiting on Christ right now could fall for this very deception because it's God that will send the strong delusion because people would rather believe a lie than accept the love of the truth. Any many will fall away. That's what apostasy is. Departing from the truth.

And according to your opinion than, Paul didn't even have to give out any strict warnings because Christ could return at "anytime". Which doesn't make sense according to what he is telling them. He tells them to not be deceived by any means that the day "shall not happen"....

You are in the same boat as pretribbers on this issue it would seem.



No, this isn't. It's the exact opposite of what horror movies portray. People will be thinking "peace and safety" when the true Christ returns and then bam destruction. They will be so shocked when the true Christ returns.

Your timing is all off. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon was cast out (ballo), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (ballo) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (ballo), which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

Christ uses the same type of language in John 12 as He did in Revelation 12:31-33, when, shortly before the cross, He predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan through the cross. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out (ekballo). And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

Here again we have another clear confirmation as to the timing of the banishment of Satan. Christ deliberately connects the time of His death to the time when Satan “the prince of this world” would finally be “cast out.” There, He gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (deo) him a thousand years, And cast (ballo) him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

What is this telling us?

What God has been saying throughout the New Testament.

This whole portrayal seems to correspond with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control. He now holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind.

What is more, and it is sometimes missed in the text: His assumption to the throne occasioned the gracious liberating of the hitherto blinded nations by the Gospel. The Gentiles that were wholly deceived before the cross have now been enlightened and given an opportunity to experience God’s wonderful covenant of grace that was hitherto shut up to them.

By rejecting this truth Premils miss out on the enormity of Satan's defeat and fail to take a hold of the power that has been delegated to the Church.

These clear and explicit passages rebut the Premil theory on a future binding of Satan and a future imprisoning of him and his minions.

 

[eclipsenow]

Your timing is all off. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon was cast out (ballo), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (ballo) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (ballo), which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

Christ uses the same type of language in John 12 as He did in Revelation 12:31-33, when, shortly before the cross, He predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan through the cross. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out (ekballo). And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

Here again we have another clear confirmation as to the timing of the banishment of Satan. Christ deliberately connects the time of His death to the time when Satan “the prince of this world” would finally be “cast out.” There, He gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (deo) him a thousand years, And cast (ballo) him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

What is this telling us?

What God has been saying throughout the New Testament.

This whole portrayal seems to correspond with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control. He now holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind.

What is more, and it is sometimes missed in the text: His assumption to the throne occasioned the gracious liberating of the hitherto blinded nations by the Gospel. The Gentiles that were wholly deceived before the cross have now been enlightened and given an opportunity to experience God’s wonderful covenant of grace that was hitherto shut up to them.

By rejecting this truth Premils miss out on the enormity of Satan's defeat and fail to take a hold of the power that has been delegated to the Church.

These clear and explicit passages rebut the Premil theory on a future binding of Satan and a future imprisoning of him and his minions.

Exactly! I find the more obsessed people are with some sort of artificial, man-made "End Times Table" - the more prone they are to misunderstanding the very gospel itself!


For example - JulieB67 demands that we "See" Satan on the throne or it didn't happen. But as you rightly point out - Jesus defeated Satan at the cross and especially at the resurrection - and reigns right now! But do we 'see' him? No. Not physically. This assertion of JulieB would undermine the fact that Jesus reigns over the church now! As you rightly said:

This whole portrayal seems to correspond with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).​

He assumed all power. Past tense. This is the 'overlap' of the 2 ages - Now and ETERNITY. We are already seated in the heavenly realms - even though we're not there yet. Eschatological Tension. "Now and not yet."

One of the clearest passages on this is Ephesians 2.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are now seated with Christ.
We are not yet there.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The fact that Jesus Return & "The Rapture" & Judgement Day & The "Great White Throne" all happen together is an essential feature of Amillennialism.

For sure. Some just can't accept the simplicity of our doctrine. They are more attracted to convoluted, sensationalized theories and wild speculation.

Amil theology is the majority eschatology across Christian history and even the Christian church today. (Estimated to be about 2/3rds of the church today - even after the terrible influence of the Scofield Bible that changed American Christianity for generations!)

That's interesting. Can you tell me your source for the claim that about 2/3rds of the Christian church today are amillennialists? That seems high, but I live in the U.S., so I don't have much insight to what Christians believe in other countries.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your timing is all off. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon was cast out (ballo), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (ballo) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (ballo), which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

Christ uses the same type of language in John 12 as He did in Revelation 12:31-33, when, shortly before the cross, He predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan through the cross. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out (ekballo). And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

Here again we have another clear confirmation as to the timing of the banishment of Satan. Christ deliberately connects the time of His death to the time when Satan “the prince of this world” would finally be “cast out.” There, He gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (deo) him a thousand years, And cast (ballo) him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

What is this telling us?

What God has been saying throughout the New Testament.

This whole portrayal seems to correspond with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control. He now holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind.

What is more, and it is sometimes missed in the text: His assumption to the throne occasioned the gracious liberating of the hitherto blinded nations by the Gospel. The Gentiles that were wholly deceived before the cross have now been enlightened and given an opportunity to experience God’s wonderful covenant of grace that was hitherto shut up to them.

By rejecting this truth Premils miss out on the enormity of Satan's defeat and fail to take a hold of the power that has been delegated to the Church.

Well said. Great post. Your last statement here really shows the real life application of this doctrine to our daily lives. This isn't just some interesting thing for us to talk about and debate. It can affect how we view Jesus, how we view the church and how we view Satan during the New Testament era. Because of Christ's defeat of Satan on the cross, we have complete authority over him. We merely have to submit to God, resist the devil and he must flee from us (James 4:7). Premils focus on Satan's power over the wicked while completely missing out on the power that we Christians have over him. They instead live in fear of him, thinking he might devour them since he goes about like a roaring lion. But, he can roar all he wants. If we resist him, he has to run away with his tail between his legs.

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Satan is a defeated enemy and he knows his time is limited (Revelation 12:12). He has tried and will continue to try to bring us down, but he has no power over us because he was bound by Jesus on the cross.

 

[JulieB67]

Your timing is all off.

We shall see.

. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other.

The verses that parallel one another are these-

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

If you want to believe that this is symbolic and that the devil himself is not at work here that's fine. Then you would be contradicting your own belief that he's not a factor or has no power to cast some into prison because he's in the pit at this time etc. Christ specifically states the "devil" he doesn't state some of you will be thrown into prison which could imply anyone -he specifies the devil. And these are letters to the churches-Christian churches. Christ has already ascended. So again, your contradicting your own belief that he has no such power. to do so.
But it will happen to one generation before he returns. His evil spirit of course is here of course but he's not been cast down as a full blown angel ready to deceive -donning that disguise as an angel of light, playing savior to the world.

Paul tells us in great detail on how to fight him during that "evil day" a day that was told to a Gentile church so this has nothing to do with Israel vs Gentiles and who is taught what. And he states the armor is to fight the wiles of the devil

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Wiles is trickery which again contradicts your belief that he cannot deceive at this time.

Angels have mass, they have bodies. They are more than just spiritual beings as you believe that's all Satan is. And they will be here de facto. That's a reality. They will be here before Christ returns playing savior. Satan is disguised as an angel of light and you don't don a disguise unless eyes are on you. It was prophesized long ago that he would sit on the sides to the north proclaiming to be God. Paul is a second witness to that.
No babylon king ever sat on the sides to the north proclaiming to be God. They had their own thrones, they had their own gods. Lucifier is a morning star which is an angel, not a man. Many are types that point to Satan in the OT and this is a huge one. But the prophecies are true. But no time in history has that happened yet. 70 AD doesn't cut it because again we are talking about angels and two Paul gave his warnings to Gentiles, etc. The same warning that Christ gives to the very first Christians -the disciples when they ask for signs of his coming at the end of this world age. He describes the period where if someone states they are Christ -"don't believe it".

This snare (trap) will come onto the entire world.

Here again we have another clear confirmation as to the timing of the banishment of Satan.

Being cast out is not the same thing as binding someone in the bottomless pit.

As we see the devil will cast some Christians in prison. We see that the devil is Satan in Revelation 12 and again, this is not symbolic in nature, he and his angels will be here in reality.

There's a reason people will be saying peace and safety and then bam destruction. They will bring that sense of fake peace and safety. Daniel states he destroys wonderfully and by "peace" will destroy many. 70 Ad certainly wasn't about peace but we see in 1st Thes before Christ returns people will be thinking peace and safety. So obviously you believe that before Christ returns the world itself will have achieve some sort of world peace. I don't believe that.
The world every day is moving away from Christianity. And we certainly aren't "co reigning" with Christ at this point. The world would not be in this state if that were true. Reign means to rule and many Christians are dying for their beliefs still to this day. Spreading the gospel is not "ruling." Christ sits on the throne but he has not started his earthly kingdom yet when he will rule with a rod of iron and his elect will rule with him.

This has not happened yet-

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

We know at the end there is only one throne, and only God that will judge. So this has to be a time period before.

And this most certainly hasn't happened yet.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

I Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Which exactly parallels these verses -

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."

Again, this is no babylon king we are talking about. We are talking about an angel -the morning star, only he's the fake. But he will proclaim to be God. He will disguise himself as an angel of light. That's his MO

Further proof this is Satan -

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

After this period where he will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God he will be taken to the pit.


Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Angels are often called men in the bible and this is no different. We are dealing with entities that look just like us. They can even eat, etc

We aren't going to be dealing with spirits but real entities with real bodies/mass. They will be cast down. They will perform miracles in the sight of men. Michael is the one with them now and I'm sure he's not dealing with spirits.

Isaiah 14:19 "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet."

Revelation 1:16 "And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

By rejecting this truth Premils miss out on the enormity of Satan's defeat

We know he's a dead man walking.

But if all you're doing is waiting on Christ to return at any time, I feel as if you're in the same boat as the pretribbers who also believe in a "any moment doctrine." Paul shot down that belief when he states 'that day shall not happen..." Or you believe the son of perdition already sat on the throne proclaiming to be God. But again he is talking and warning Gentiles, not Israel, so this has nothing to do with 70AD. And again, no one has sat on any throne proclaiming to be God in the manner the Bible describes- So that's still prophecy that has yet to happen.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." -That's the disguise.

As I've said before, nothing wrong with being a watchman. There's no panic about it, no fear. Just watching for the signs that are laid out just in case it should happen in my lifetime.


As I said, we'll see....

 

[eclipsenow]

Angels have mass they have bodies. They will be here de facto. That's a reality.

I'm not so sure on that at all. I don't think we know enough to assert they look JUST like us. Isn't there some ambiguity about the 'messengers of the Lord' in the OT?

 

[JulieB67]

I'm not so sure on that at all. I don't think we know enough to assert they look JUST like us

"Let us make man in "our image". We look like them, only we are in the flesh. But they have mass, they have bodies. Enough that the men of Sodom wanted to have their way with them. They can also eat. We can eat their food and they can consume ours.

Who do you think these are?

Genesis 18:2 "And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

And what about these scriptures?

Genesis 19:1 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground


Genesis 19:2 "And he said, "Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways." And they said, "Nay; but we will abide in the street all night."


Genesis 19:3 "And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat."


Genesis 19:5 "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

Genesis 19:10 "But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door

So I wouldn't say we don't know enough. The evidence is pretty clear. They look like us , so much so they are called men in the Bible as well.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We shall see.

The verses that parallel one another are these-

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

If you want to believe that this is symbolic and that the devil himself is not at work here that's fine. Then you would be contradicting your own belief that he's not a factor or has no power to cast some into prison because he's in the pit at this time etc. Christ specifically states the "devil" he doesn't state some of you will be thrown into prison which could imply anyone -he specifies the devil. And these are letters to the churches-Christian churches. Christ has already ascended. So again, your contradicting your own belief that he has no such power. to do so.
But it will happen to one generation before he returns. His evil spirit of course is here of course but he's not been cast down as a full blown angel ready to deceive -donning that disguise as an angel of light, playing savior to the world.

Paul tells us in great detail on how to fight him during that "evil day" a day that was told to a Gentile church so this has nothing to do with Israel vs Gentiles and who is taught what. And he states the armor is to fight the wiles of the devil

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Wiles is trickery which again contradicts your belief that he cannot deceive at this time.

Angels have mass, they have bodies. They are more than just spiritual beings as you believe that's all Satan is. And they will be here de facto. That's a reality. They will be here before Christ returns playing savior. Satan is disguised as an angel of light and you don't don a disguise unless eyes are on you. It was prophesized long ago that he would sit on the sides to the north proclaiming to be God. Paul is a second witness to that.
No babylon king ever sat on the sides to the north proclaiming to be God. They had their own thrones, they had their own gods. Lucifier is a morning star which is an angel, not a man. Many are types that point to Satan in the OT and this is a huge one. But the prophecies are true. But no time in history has that happened yet. 70 AD doesn't cut it because again we are talking about angels and two Paul gave his warnings to Gentiles, etc. The same warning that Christ gives to the very first Christians -the disciples when they ask for signs of his coming at the end of this world age. He describes the period where if someone states they are Christ -"don't believe it".

This snare (trap) will come onto the entire world.



Being cast out is not the same thing as binding someone in the bottomless pit.

As we see the devil will cast some Christians in prison. We see that the devil is Satan in Revelation 12 and again, this is not symbolic in nature, he and his angels will be here in reality.

There's a reason people will be saying peace and safety and then bam destruction. They will bring that sense of fake peace and safety. Daniel states he destroys wonderfully and by "peace" will destroy many. 70 Ad certainly wasn't about peace but we see in 1st Thes before Christ returns people will be thinking peace and safety. So obviously you believe that before Christ returns the world itself will have achieve some sort of world peace. I don't believe that.
The world every day is moving away from Christianity. And we certainly aren't "co reigning" with Christ at this point. The world would not be in this state if that were true. Reign means to rule and many Christians are dying for their beliefs still to this day. Spreading the gospel is not "ruling." Christ sits on the throne but he has not started his earthly kingdom yet when he will rule with a rod of iron and his elect will rule with him.

This has not happened yet-

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

We know at the end there is only one throne, and only God that will judge. So this has to be a time period before.

And this most certainly hasn't happened yet.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

I Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Which exactly parallels these verses -

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."

Again, this is no babylon king we are talking about. We are talking about an angel -the morning star, only he's the fake. But he will proclaim to be God. He will disguise himself as an angel of light. That's his MO

Further proof this is Satan -

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

After this period where he will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God he will be taken to the pit.


Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Angels are often called men in the bible and this is no different. We are dealing with entities that look just like us. They can even eat, etc

We aren't going to be dealing with spirits but real entities with real bodies/mass. They will be cast down. They will perform miracles in the sight of men. Michael is the one with them now and I'm sure he's not dealing with spirits.

Isaiah 14:19 "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet."

Revelation 1:16 "And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

We know he's a dead man walking.

But if all you're doing is waiting on Christ to return at any time, I feel as if you're in the same boat as the pretribbers who also believe in a "any moment doctrine." Paul shot down that belief when he states 'that day shall not happen..." Or you believe the son of perdition already sat on the throne proclaiming to be God. But again he is talking and warning Gentiles, not Israel, so this has nothing to do with 70AD. And again, no one has sat on any throne proclaiming to be God in the manner the Bible describes- So that's still prophecy that has yet to happen.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." -That's the disguise.

As I've said before, nothing wrong with being a watchman. There's no panic about it, no fear. Just watching for the signs that are laid out just in case it should happen in my lifetime.


As I said, we'll see....

You totally ignored every point I presented and served to deviate off in a wrong direction. Please address the evidence that challenges your thesis. My rebuttal is to repeat my unaddressed post.

Your timing is all off. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon was cast out (ballo), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (ballo) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (ballo), which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

Christ uses the same type of language in John 12 as He did in Revelation 12:31-33, when, shortly before the cross, He predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan through the cross. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out (ekballo). And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

Here again we have another clear confirmation as to the timing of the banishment of Satan. Christ deliberately connects the time of His death to the time when Satan “the prince of this world” would finally be “cast out.” There, He gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (deo) him a thousand years, And cast (ballo) him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

What is this telling us?

What God has been saying throughout the New Testament.

This whole portrayal seems to correspond with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control. He now holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind.

What is more, and it is sometimes missed in the text: His assumption to the throne occasioned the gracious liberating of the hitherto blinded nations by the Gospel. The Gentiles that were wholly deceived before the cross have now been enlightened and given an opportunity to experience God’s wonderful covenant of grace that was hitherto shut up to them.

By rejecting this truth Premils miss out on the enormity of Satan's defeat and fail to take a hold of the power that has been delegated to the Church.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Being cast out is not the same thing as binding someone in the bottomless pit.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance off Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

The setting of this story and circumstance of the demon possessed man was an opportunity for Christ to show the sovereign power of God and articulate a deep spiritual reality. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

The spiritual chains that were placed on devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God had ordained the plundering of Satan’s house. And this began through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. This gracious work has been now ongoing for 2,000 years. Many from within the kingdom of darkness have now changed camps. “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer calls the shots. They would now operate within very definite spiritual parameters sovereignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions. The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

Taking authority over the devil involves the binding of the strong man, before entering his house and casting him out. The binding here is the prelude to casting the devil out. Christ’s whole teaching here is a layered argument; He is building brick upon brick.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance off Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

The setting of this story and circumstance of the demon possessed man was an opportunity for Christ to show the sovereign power of God and articulate a deep spiritual reality. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

The spiritual chains that were placed on devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God had ordained the plundering of Satan’s house. And this began through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. This gracious work has been now ongoing for 2,000 years. Many from within the kingdom of darkness have now changed camps. “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer calls the shots. They would now operate within very definite spiritual parameters sovereignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions. The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

Taking authority over the devil involves the binding of the strong man, before entering his house and casting him out. The binding here is the prelude to casting the devil out. Christ’s whole teaching here is a layered argument; He is building brick upon brick.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

Satan was cast of heaven to earth long before the cross of calvary, he was on the earth for "Jobs" and "Jesus" temptations on earth and these both pre-dated calvary

 

[eclipsenow]

"Let us make man in "our image".

You're assuming that's not the Trinity in conversation. I've heard theologians I respect say it could be that. I've heard others I also respect say it's an image of God on his Almighty throne conversing with his heavenly court. The "our" might be ambiguous in that sense. What kind of angels?

We look like them, only we are in the flesh. But they have mass, they have bodies. Enough that the men of Sodom wanted to have their way with them. They can also eat. We can eat their food and they can consume ours.

Who do you think these are?

Genesis 18:2 "And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

And what about these scriptures?

Genesis 19:1 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground


Genesis 19:2 "And he said, "Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways." And they said, "Nay; but we will abide in the street all night."


Genesis 19:3 "And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat."


Genesis 19:5 "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

Genesis 19:10 "But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door

So I wouldn't say we don't know enough. The evidence is pretty clear. They look like us , so much so they are called men in the Bible as well.

"Let us make man in "our image". We look like them, only we are in the flesh. But they have mass, they have bodies. Enough that the men of Sodom wanted to have their way with them. They can also eat. We can eat their food and they can consume ours.

Who do you think these are?

Genesis 18:2 "And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

And what about these scriptures?

Genesis 19:1 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground


Genesis 19:2 "And he said, "Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways." And they said, "Nay; but we will abide in the street all night."


Genesis 19:3 "And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat."


Genesis 19:5 "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

Genesis 19:10 "But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door

So I wouldn't say we don't know enough. The evidence is pretty clear. They look like us , so much so they are called men in the Bible as well.

The word 'angels' there originally did not mean spiritual being. These could be special men we don't really know much about, who travelled with and acted on behalf of the Lord with his special blessing.

Even wikipedia says "the Biblical Hebrew term malʼākh, denoting simply "messenger" without connoting its nature." Angel - Wikipedia

It's exactly the same word used in Genesis 32 for messengers. “3Jacob sent messengers ahead of him to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4He instructed them: “This is what you are to say to my lord Esau: ‘Your servant Jacob says, I have been staying with Laban and have remained there till now. 5I have cattle and donkeys, sheep and goats, male and female servants. Now I am sending this message to my lord, that I may find favor in your eyes.’ ” 6When the messengers returned to Jacob, they said, “We went to your brother Esau, and now he is coming to meet you, and four hundred men are with him.””

They do not have material bodies. Hebrews 1:7 ”In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
It references Psalm 104:4 “He makes winds his messengers(1), flames of fire his servants.”
Footnotes

1. Or angels

 

[JulieB67]

You totally ignored every point I presented and served to deviate off in a wrong direction. Please address the evidence that challenges your thesis. My rebuttal is to repeat my unaddressed post.

I don't feel like I deviated. The subject is Satan. You have your beliefs about him and I have mine which I used scripture, etc. I have to take the bible as a whole and it was long ago prophesized that he would sit on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. That has not happened yet and I posted why and how that's impossible. Yes, his spirit is here but he has not been here physically and played savior donning that disguise as an angel of light. He will have horns like a lamb (Christ) but spoke as a dragon (Satan)

I like to think I have an open mind. Someone once planted a seed for me about the rapture over 20 years ago when I was once a believer and that's why got me into reading the bible in it's entirety for the first time. I dropped that doctrine and many others but I just don't see the Amil position, maybe a few verses but overall I don't see it. And just like the rapture, I can't take a few verses and run with it. I have to take the Bible as a whole because if you don't understand the beginning you'll likely not understand the end. And I've read many many Amil posts over the years but again, I have to go with the entire Bible on this subject and go from there. And I still see prophecy as not being fulfilled, the biggest is Satan.

Revelation to me is knowing the fact that John was taken in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. That's not a day of the week, the disciples never called any day of the week the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is just another way of saying the Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. John was taken to that time period. Christ is described the same as he is in chapter 19. John is told to write about the past, present and future of that time period -the Lord's Day. Revelation 12 is a good example of a chapter being past, present and future. We know Revelation is not in complete chronological order but some is especially at the end because we have already dove into what's happened and once Christ returns we can move forward.

Your timing is all off. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon was cast out (ballo), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (ballo) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (ballo), which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

They will be here as well. This has nothing to do with binding him in the pit.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power [aut of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Rejoicing in heavens but not on earth. Woe in fact, beware and he knows he has a short time. This is the time that Christ talks about having shortened.


Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

You can believe he's in the pit at this time without this kind of power but I don't believe so. Again, Paul tells Christians how to fight him in that 'evil day" a day that has not happened yet.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We shall see.

The verses that parallel one another are these-

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

If you want to believe that this is symbolic and that the devil himself is not at work here that's fine. Then you would be contradicting your own belief that he's not a factor or has no power to cast some into prison because he's in the pit at this time etc. Christ specifically states the "devil" he doesn't state some of you will be thrown into prison which could imply anyone -he specifies the devil. And these are letters to the churches-Christian churches. Christ has already ascended. So again, your contradicting your own belief that he has no such power. to do so.

You have completely missed the point. No one is saying that the devil can't tempt us or put us in prison or anything like that. The point being made is that he cannot make us lose our faith and join his kingdom. Scripture very clearly says if we submit to God and resist him then he must flee from us (James 4:7). He can put us in prison and tempt us and try to do all kinds of things to us, but if we submit to God and resist him then he has to back off can't make us lose our faith. Being put in prison and being tested does not equate to Satan having power over us in the sense that he has authority over us rather than Christ having authority over us. Satan is "the god of this world", but not the god of us.

We have no reason to fear Satan and those who do Satan's bidding.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But it will happen to one generation before he returns. His evil spirit of course is here of course but he's not been cast down as a full blown angel ready to deceive -donning that disguise as an angel of light, playing savior to the world.

Paul tells us in great detail on how to fight him during that "evil day" a day that was told to a Gentile church so this has nothing to do with Israel vs Gentiles and who is taught what. And he states the armor is to fight the wiles of the devil

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

You don't think this verse applied at the time it was written and ever since and instead think it only applies "to one generation before he returns"? Paul indicated no such thing.

Being cast out is not the same thing as binding someone in the bottomless pit.

As we see the devil will cast some Christians in prison. We see that the devil is Satan in Revelation 12 and again, this is not symbolic in nature, he and his angels will be here in reality.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Notice how Satan being cast out of heaven corresponds with him no longer being able to accuse the brethren (Christians) "before our God day and night". That happened long ago already. That's why Paul wrote this:

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Paul asks "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen"? He asked that in relation to those who belong to God as a result of putting their faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Another way of putting that would be "Who will bring any accusation against those whom God has chosen"? Paul said "No one". That includes Satan. Why can no one, including Satan, make any accusation towards God's chosen anymore? Because our sins are covered by the blood of Christ. No accusation can be made towards us when our sins are forgiven and no longer held against us. What accusation can be made against us. None. So, Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels long ago and can no longer accuse us before God.

There's a reason people will be saying peace and safety and then bam destruction. They will bring that sense of fake peace and safety. Daniel states he destroys wonderfully and by "peace" will destroy many. 70 Ad certainly wasn't about peace but we see in 1st Thes before Christ returns people will be thinking peace and safety. So obviously you believe that before Christ returns the world itself will have achieve some sort of world peace. I don't believe that.

Why are you making assumptions about what he believes without asking first? You are arguing with a straw man. I happen to know what he believes about this and I agree with it. He does not "believe that before Christ returns the world itself will have achieve some sort of world peace".

You're not looking at the context of 1 Thessalonians 5.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The context of what Paul is talking about here when he says people will say "peace and safety" is not in relation to them falsely thinking that there is world peace when there is not, as you interpret it. Rather, the context is in relation to people falsely thinking they are spiritually at peace and are spiritually safe from being among those who will experience God's wrath. In this passage Paul is contrasting those who are spiritually in the light and those who are in spiritual darkness, so that is the context of the passage. It's about how people are thinking in a spiritual sense about their own spiritual status, not about what they are thinking about the status of the world in relation to whether it's at peace or not.

But if all you're doing is waiting on Christ to return at any time, I feel as if you're in the same boat as the pretribbers who also believe in a "any moment doctrine."

Where did he say this? Nowhere. Why are you trying to tell him what he believes instead of paying attention to what he actually believes. If you don't know, just ask him instead of making assumptions.

 

[Truth7t7]

You don't think this verse applied at the time it was written and ever since and instead think it only applies "to one generation before he returns"? Paul indicated no such thing

It's Spiritual Jew that believes in preterist 70AD fulfillment, scripture teaches the events are future

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I like to think I have an open mind. Someone once planted a seed for me about the rapture over 20 years ago when I was once a believer and that's why got me into reading the bible in it's entirety for the first time. I dropped that doctrine and many others but I just don't see the Amil position, maybe a few verses but overall I don't see it. And just like the rapture, I can't take a few verses and run with it. I have to take the Bible as a whole because if you don't understand the beginning you'll likely not understand the end.

That is exactly what amils do. This is exactly what I tell premils that they do not do all the time. They do not take the Bible as a whole. You might think you are, but you are not. Premils try to claim that Jesus doesn't reign now and will begin to reign when He returns. How, as a premil, can you draw that conclusion and claim to take the Bible as a whole? I assume these passages are in your Bible:

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Acts 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

And I've read many many Amil posts over the years but again, I have to go with the entire Bible on this subject and go from there.

As I showed above, premils do not do that. I believe Amils do. So, honestly, it baffles me to see you try to claim that and act as if Amils don't do that.

And I still see prophecy as not being fulfilled, the biggest is Satan.

Amils also see some prophecy as not being fulfilled. Are you confusing amillennialism with full preterism? They are not the same.

Revelation to me is knowing the fact that John was taken in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. That's not a day of the week, the disciples never called any day of the week the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is just another way of saying the Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. John was taken to that time period. Christ is described the same as he is in chapter 19. John is told to write about the past, present and future of that time period -the Lord's Day. Revelation 12 is a good example of a chapter being past, present and future. We know Revelation is not in complete chronological order but some is especially at the end because we have already dove into what's happened and once Christ returns we can move forward.

What you're saying here is based on extreme doctrinal bias, in my opinion. How can you say that the whole book is about things that would happen in the distant future when the book was addressed to seven first century churches in the ancient Roman province of Asia? In Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus addressed first century people in those churches about things that pertained specifically to them (as well as other things that apply to all Christians of all time periods), so how can you say that the entire book is only about things related to a time just before, during and after the second coming of Christ?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It's Spiritual Jew that believes in preterist 70AD fulfillment, scripture teaches the events are future

Oh look, it's a child trying to join an adult discussion. How cute.

What events are you talking about exactly? What I said related to this verse specifically that she quoted:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.

It seems like she was saying this applies specifically only to the generation living before the return of Christ. So, I'm asking if she doesn't apply it also to the time it was written and the time ever since then? What are your thoughts, kid?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't feel like I deviated. The subject is Satan. You have your beliefs about him and I have mine which I used scripture, etc. I have to take the bible as a whole and it was long ago prophesized that he would sit on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. That has not happened yet and I posted why and how that's impossible. Yes, his spirit is here but he has not been here physically and played savior donning that disguise as an angel of light. He will have horns like a lamb (Christ) but spoke as a dragon (Satan)

I like to think I have an open mind. Someone once planted a seed for me about the rapture over 20 years ago when I was once a believer and that's why got me into reading the bible in it's entirety for the first time. I dropped that doctrine and many others but I just don't see the Amil position, maybe a few verses but overall I don't see it. And just like the rapture, I can't take a few verses and run with it. I have to take the Bible as a whole because if you don't understand the beginning you'll likely not understand the end. And I've read many many Amil posts over the years but again, I have to go with the entire Bible on this subject and go from there. And I still see prophecy as not being fulfilled, the biggest is Satan.

Revelation to me is knowing the fact that John was taken in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. That's not a day of the week, the disciples never called any day of the week the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is just another way of saying the Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. John was taken to that time period. Christ is described the same as he is in chapter 19. John is told to write about the past, present and future of that time period -the Lord's Day. Revelation 12 is a good example of a chapter being past, present and future. We know Revelation is not in complete chronological order but some is especially at the end because we have already dove into what's happened and once Christ returns we can move forward.




Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

They will be here as well. This has nothing to do with binding him in the pit.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power [aut of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Rejoicing in heavens but not on earth. Woe in fact, beware and he knows he has a short time. This is the time that Christ talks about having shortened.


Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

You can believe he's in the pit at this time without this kind of power but I don't believe so. Again, Paul tells Christians how to fight him in that 'evil day" a day that has not happened yet.

John 12:31-33 nails it, yet you totally avoid that. Premils have to. There are many Scriptures that forbid Premil. Where do I start? It is a non-corroborated doctrine.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't feel like I deviated. The subject is Satan. You have your beliefs about him and I have mine which I used scripture, etc. I have to take the bible as a whole and it was long ago prophesized that he would sit on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. That has not happened yet and I posted why and how that's impossible. Yes, his spirit is here but he has not been here physically and played savior donning that disguise as an angel of light. He will have horns like a lamb (Christ) but spoke as a dragon (Satan)

I like to think I have an open mind. Someone once planted a seed for me about the rapture over 20 years ago when I was once a believer and that's why got me into reading the bible in it's entirety for the first time. I dropped that doctrine and many others but I just don't see the Amil position, maybe a few verses but overall I don't see it. And just like the rapture, I can't take a few verses and run with it. I have to take the Bible as a whole because if you don't understand the beginning you'll likely not understand the end. And I've read many many Amil posts over the years but again, I have to go with the entire Bible on this subject and go from there. And I still see prophecy as not being fulfilled, the biggest is Satan.

Revelation to me is knowing the fact that John was taken in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. That's not a day of the week, the disciples never called any day of the week the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is just another way of saying the Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. John was taken to that time period. Christ is described the same as he is in chapter 19. John is told to write about the past, present and future of that time period -the Lord's Day. Revelation 12 is a good example of a chapter being past, present and future. We know Revelation is not in complete chronological order but some is especially at the end because we have already dove into what's happened and once Christ returns we can move forward.




Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

They will be here as well. This has nothing to do with binding him in the pit.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power [aut of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Rejoicing in heavens but not on earth. Woe in fact, beware and he knows he has a short time. This is the time that Christ talks about having shortened.


Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

You can believe he's in the pit at this time without this kind of power but I don't believe so. Again, Paul tells Christians how to fight him in that 'evil day" a day that has not happened yet.

Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. Revelation 12:5-11 supports: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (or ballo Strong’s 906), which accused them before our God day and night. And they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

When was Satan cast out?

The answer is in the text. It is very simple and unambiguous: when He ascended up to heaven! When the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron … was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan. It also demonstrates the heavenly impact that Christ’s glorious victory over Satan secured. Both Revelation 20 and Revelation 12 chart the casting down of Satan from heaven in order to facilitate the global spread of the Gospel to the previously blinded nations.

The term “cast out” is taken from the Greek word ballo meaning to eject, drive out or send away. This word gives us some idea of the deep lasting work that was wrought upon Satan as a result of the cross. This reading seems to strongly support the idea that the accusing place that Satan once held in heaven before Calvary has now been totally destroyed and his area of influence on earth significantly limited.

Being banished from heaven he now operates on earth in a restricted manner with a lot less influence than he previously had. Satan was effectively unseated from his former global deception over the Gentiles, allowing the Gospel to spread forth.

It is not insignificant that the exact same Greek word is used in Revelation 20:3 as Revelation 12 to describe the restriction placed upon Satan from the cross. Revelation 20:3 says, “he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast (or ballo Strong’s 906) him into the abyss.” Being banished from heaven into the deep meant the playing field had drastically changed for Satan.

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

Satan was thus aptly described before his eviction as he “which deceiveth the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). This referred to the remit of his control. However, after Satan was banished from heaven a herald suitably announced “now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down.” Salvation had now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s ascent and victory safely secured that. As a result, the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism. The text testifies: “they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

If someone is saved they are a walking living ongoing testimony of the sin-defeating devil-defeating power of the cross. Even the weakest believer today overcomes Satan through a life of faith. This is phenomenal! Calvary is our means of achieving that. Christ came to set us free, deliver us from the bondage and penalty of sin (which was eternal punishment), reconcile us to a holy God, give us a liberated life, and give us a home in heaven forever.

We can be absolutely sure: the devil is fully aware of the power of the cross because he is still paying a heavy penalty. If we could only grasp the scope and power of the cross then we would be in continual victory. The devil definitely does not want us to get a full revelation of the cross and what it has secured for you.

The nations of the world that were once blinded before the cross have now have been opened up to the light and truth of the Gospel - and there is nothing Satan can do to stop it. Satan (the accuser) has been soundly defeated by Christ. His firing pin has been taken away. He has been shackled in regard to his previous widespread spiritual power over the Gentiles. He is now powerless and impotent to stop the people of God advancing the Gospel commission in the will of God. His power over the saints has been demolished through the blood of Christ. That is why he has no more access to heaven and no power to accuse the elect.

Whilst Satan still carries the power to deceive individuals, he has lost the ability to keep the Gentiles (ethnos) as a collective whole blinded. Scripture after Scripture in the New Testament proves that.

It is His aim to hide what was secured at the cross in case believers and unbelievers will get fully liberated and do damage to the kingdom of darkness.

• He is already judged – his fate is sealed.
• False accuser cast down.
• No more access to heaven.
• Knows his time is short.
• Doesn’t have anything on us anymore. Past, present, and future sin has been paid for.
• The militant Church is a resistance movement against Satan and his lies as they spread the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ.
• Satan’s playing field - the Gentile nations - is enlightened.
• The Gentiles are now without excuse.
• Believers now overcome Satan by the power of the blood of Jesus made personal in their life.

 

[eclipsenow]

You have completely missed the point. No one is saying that the devil can't tempt us or put us in prison or anything like that. The point being made is that he cannot make us lose our faith and join his kingdom. Scripture very clearly says if we submit to God and resist him then he must flee from us (James 4:7). He can put us in prison and tempt us and try to do all kinds of things to us, but if we submit to God and resist him then he has to back off can't make us lose our faith. Being put in prison and being tested does not equate to Satan having power over us in the sense that he has authority over us rather than Christ having authority over us. Satan is "the god of this world", but not the god of us.

We have no reason to fear Satan and those who do Satan's bidding.

Well said brother!

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


You don't think this verse applied at the time it was written and ever since and instead think it only applies "to one generation before he returns"? Paul indicated no such thing.

Yes!

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Notice how Satan being cast out of heaven corresponds with him no longer being able to accuse the brethren (Christians) "before our God day and night". That happened long ago already. That's why Paul wrote this:

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Paul asks "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen"? He asked that in relation to those who belong to God as a result of putting their faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Another way of putting that would be "Who will bring any accusation against those whom God has chosen"? Paul said "No one". That includes Satan. Why can no one, including Satan, make any accusation towards God's chosen anymore? Because our sins are covered by the blood of Christ. No accusation can be made towards us when our sins are forgiven and no longer held against us. What accusation can be made against us. None. So, Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels long ago and can no longer accuse us before God.

Absolutely - it's basic gospel stuff! I'm disheartened that people in here get such over-fevered imaginations about eschatological stuff that it over-rides their basic gospel knowledge. It's like Revelation has some sort of brain-virus to the unprepared mind.

Why are you making assumptions about what he believes without asking first? You are arguing with a straw man. I happen to know what he believes about this and I agree with it. He does not "believe that before Christ returns the world itself will have achieve some sort of world peace".

You're not looking at the context of 1 Thessalonians 5.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The context of what Paul is talking about here when he says people will say "peace and safety" is not in relation to them falsely thinking that there is world peace when there is not, as you interpret it. Rather, the context is in relation to people falsely thinking they are spiritually at peace and are spiritually safe from being among those who will experience God's wrath. In this passage Paul is contrasting those who are spiritually in the light and those who are in spiritual darkness, so that is the context of the passage. It's about how people are thinking in a spiritual sense about their own spiritual status, not about what they are thinking about the status of the world in relation to whether it's at peace or not.

I'm not so sure it's just spiritual peace, or has to be world peace.
There could be a crisis here or there.
But generally speaking, it will be peaceful.

First, in some parts of the Olivet discourse Jesus is actually talking about THAT temple and THAT city of Jerusalem that they could see while sitting there with Jesus. We know these were already destroyed in AD70. Also, we know from history there were many wars, Rome rose against Israel, there were earthquakes, famines, and even false Messiahs that brought the wrath of Rome down on Israel in the first place!


Second, the Return of Jesus on Judgement Day is a mystery. Indeed, it will be SUCH a shock that I doubt there will be great calamities just before he returns as that would be a bit of a tell, and give away that he was about to Judge the world!


Instead of calamities, we read: Matthew 24: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man . For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.


Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know


on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him”


= it will probably be a time of peace and prosperity when he returns. Which yet another reason I’m not a futurist regarding Revelation or any other NT ‘prophesy predicting’ chaos before the end. We just don’t know when the Lord is going to return, Revelation is a sermon to suffering Christians that reminds them in symbolic language of the gospel promise that the Lord will return - so stay faithful! That’s it!


Indeed -there will be so much peace that people will be partying. But note - there is an UNDERCURRENT of wondering what is going on in the world, because of natural disasters etc. The world is still fallen and prone to disasters. But in God’s grace, more of us live and get to experience peace than his judgement. So - over to eating and drinking and marrying!


1 Thess 5:3 | "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day."


= DON'T let your guard down when times are easy.


= But also, DON'T worry about times and dates! You CANNOT know them.


= DO remain Christian, because being 'ready' is NOT about a date, but a relationship. Remain children of the light. Remain in Christ - it's the only way to be ready when he SUDDENLY and unpredictably returns.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Absolutely - it's basic gospel stuff! I'm disheartened that people in here get such over-fevered imaginations about eschatological stuff that it over-rides their basic gospel knowledge. It's like Revelation has some sort of brain-virus to the unprepared mind.

I agree. It's sad to see.

I'm not so sure it's just spiritual peace, or has to be world peace.

The context indicate as such, in my opinion. Paul contrasts being in the light spiritually with being in spiritual darkness. That is the context of what he's talking about in 1 Thess 5. He only talks about the spiritual status of people there and not the conditions of the world in terms of whether it's peaceful or not.

There could be a crisis here or there.
But generally speaking, it will be peaceful.

What are you basing this on? And where can this be found in the context of what Paul said in 1 Thess 5?

First, in some parts of the Olivet discourse Jesus is actually talking about THAT temple and THAT city of Jerusalem that they could see while sitting there with Jesus. We know these were already destroyed in AD70.

I agree. I personally believe He talked about that in Matthew 24:15-22 (Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24a).

Also, we know from history there were many wars, Rome rose against Israel, there were earthquakes, famines, and even false Messiahs that brought the wrath of Rome down on Israel in the first place!

I disagree that He talked about things like wars, earthquakes and famines in relation to what happened in 70 AD. I believe He was saying those things would happen for a long time, but would not be an indication that the end was at hand. Instead, they would be the beginning of birth pains (as the NIV puts it), which implies that those things may indicate the end of the age was getting closer, but would not be what would indicate that the end of the age was near. Instead, the things that would occur that would indicate that His coming and the end of the age were near are the things He talked about here:

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Like Paul in 2 Thess 2:1-12, Jesus talked about a time when many turning away from the faith and an increase in deception and wickedness due to things like many false prophets appearing would be signs that His second coming was near.

Second, the Return of Jesus on Judgement Day is a mystery. Indeed, it will be SUCH a shock that I doubt there will be great calamities just before he returns as that would be a bit of a tell, and give away that he was about to Judge the world!

I agree. But, again, I believe you are mistaken about thinking that earthquakes, wars and such would be signs that God's wrath that occurred in 70 AD was near. If you look closer at what He actually said, that is not what He indicated. Instead, He indicated that those things would happen but would NOT indicate that the end was near. Otherwise, He would have said those things were the ending of birth pains rather than the beginning of birth pains. And, again, I don't believe He related those things to 70 AD, but to things that would happen over time that people might think would indicate that His return was near, but were instead only the beginning of birth pains.

Instead of calamities, we read: Matthew 24: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man . For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Yep. Were you under the impression that I didn't believe this? Just look at what I said about 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 and it should've been clear that this is how I see it as well. But, maybe you're just supporting and adding to what I was saying here? I'm not sure.

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know


on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him”


= it will probably be a time of peace and prosperity when he returns.

Why do you say that, though? Scripture itself does not say that. Think about how things have been in the past. When World War 1 was going on do you think people were not eating, drinking, marrying, partying and such in most places in the world during that time besides the places directly impacted by the war? Sure, they were. Same thing with World War 2. And, certainly the same thing with lesser wars. So, I don't see any basis for thinking there has to be world peace and prosperity when He returns. There could be, but not necessarily.

Which yet another reason I’m not a futurist regarding Revelation or any other NT ‘prophesy predicting’ chaos before the end.

Yes, futurists are wrong in thinking that has to be the case before Jesus returns (largely due to them taking almost everything literally in the book of Revelation) and preterists are wrong about a lot of things as well. Which is why I am neither. There is no balance in either of those belief systems.

We just don’t know when the Lord is going to return, Revelation is a sermon to suffering Christians that reminds them in symbolic language of the gospel promise that the Lord will return - so stay faithful! That’s it!

Well, I don't completely agree with this. Both Jesus and Paul indicated that a time of a higher level of deception when many would turn and fall away from the faith and when wickedness would increase would occur before Christ returns. So, it isn't as if there isn't anything that had to occur first before Jesus returned. But, with what we're seeing going on in more recent years in terms of the amount of sexual immorality and such increasing, what Jesus and Paul talked about could certainly already be happening.

Indeed -there will be so much peace that people will be partying. But note - there is an UNDERCURRENT of wondering what is going on in the world, because of natural disasters etc. The world is still fallen and prone to disasters. But in God’s grace, more of us live and get to experience peace than his judgement. So - over to eating and drinking and marrying!

Again, even during times of war most people in the world still eat and drink, get married and have parties. So, I don't see any requirememt of their being world peace (or a sense of the world being mostly at peace) before Jesus returns.

1 Thess 5:3 | "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day."


= DON'T let your guard down when times are easy.

That's now what I see Paul saying there. In relation to believers, Paul is showing confidence in them that the day of the Lord will not come like a thief in the night because he said "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.". In relation to unbelievers, I believe Paul is saying they will think they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath without realizing they are actually in spiritual darkness. Because of that, they are totally unprepared for what's coming and will be caught completely off guard when it happens. If they never they repent first, of course.

= But also, DON'T worry about times and dates! You CANNOT know them.

Right. This is why I don't see any of the time periods mentioned in the book of Reevlation as being literal. If they were then someone could figure out the exact date that Jesus is coming at some point, but I don't believe anyone will know the day or hour until the day He comes.

= DO remain Christian, because being 'ready' is NOT about a date, but a relationship. Remain children of the light. Remain in Christ - it's the only way to be ready when he SUDDENLY and unpredictably returns.

Right. That's the main thing we need to do. But, we are also told to watch for the signs which indicate that His return is near so that we are ready for His return if it happens in our lifetimes. Such as what Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:9-14;23-26 and what Paul mentioned in 2 Thess 2:1-12.