Day of the Lord all happens together

[Truth7t7]

I don't, either. My point is, while we are saved, does the second death have any power over us? It doesn't, right? Think about that in terms of what Revelation 20:6 says.

But, even putting that aside, once a saved person dies and they have kept their faith and endured to the end of their lives, does the second death have any power over him or her at that point? No, right? Please think about what that means in relation to Revelation 20:6.


Yep.


I ask again, do we need to be raised bodily from the dead in order for the second death to not have power over us? No, right? If that was the case then how would those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ avoid the second death since they will not die and will not be resurrected?

Does the second death have power over the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now? No, right? Please think about that in relation to Revelation 20:6.


I believe someone can spiritually have part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection - Acts 26:23) which I believe happens when a person becomes saved and they can later lose their part in the first resurrection if they fall away.

Your theology is all over the place, scripture clearly teaches once a believer is sealed by God the Holy Spirit it's until the day of redemption in the second coming (The End)

Reality is, those you describe above were never sealed by God The Holy Spirit and saved

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:27-30KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your theology is all over the place, scripture clearly teaches once a believer is sealed by God the Holy Spirit it's until the day of redemption in the second coming (The End)

Reality is, those you describe above were never sealed by God The Holy Spirit and saved

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:27-30KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

My theology lines up with scripture, overall, and your apparent Calvinist theology does not. You are not looking at the big picture and just drawing conclusions from a few verses. That is not wise. I'm sure @JulieB67 will agree with me on this.

Let's start with the sealing of the Holy Spirit. That's something God does, but does that mean we no longer have free will when we become saved? Does He force us to keep our faith and endure to the end or is that our choice?

What do you make of this:

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

First of all, why would Paul need to "pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" if that was certain to happen, as you believe? That would mean Paul was praying for no reason.

Also, notice how Paul told believers to "Quench not the Spirit". The Greek word translated as "Quench" there is sbennymi (Strong's G4570) and it means to extinguish. How can we quench or extinguish the Holy Spirit if we are automatically sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption? That is contradictory. You obviously haven't even thought of this as you do only the bare minimum when studying scripture instead of making the effort to dig deeper to find the truth. That's why your eschatology is all over the place and is a mess.

That same Greek word translated as "quench" in 1 Thess 5:19 is used here:

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out (sbennymi). But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

So, in this parable, all ten virgins start out having oil. The oil in this parable represents the Holy Spirit because it represents what saved people have in them and unsaved people don't have in them. But, what happens to the foolish virgins? They don't take any extra oil with them when they go to meet the bridegroom. And then they all fall asleep while waiting for Him. Since the wise virgins took extra oil with them, they don't run out of oil before He comes. But since the foolish virgins don't take any extra oil with them, their lamps burn out (extinguish). This represents someone quenching the Holy Spirit. What happens to such a person? When Jesus comes they will plead with Him to let them inherit the kingdom of God, but He will say that He doesn't know them.

So, clearly, your understanding of the sealing of the Holy Spirit is flawed. It is not a seal that forces us to continue having faith. It can be broken if we fall away from the faith, which scripture warns us against several times (for example, Hebrews 3:12-16).

As for John 10:27-30, you again are reading more into that passage than what is actually said there. Yes, it's true that no one can pluck us out of God's hand. That means no one can force us to renounce our faith. Very true. However, you are only looking at part of the story. What that passage does not say is that we can't lose our faith and fall away (apostatize). Scripture says we can lose our faith and fall away and warns us against that.

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;....12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Notice here that Hebrews 3:12-15 is being addressed to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" who share "our profession" of Christ Jesus. That's obviously a description of true Christians. And then it warns these true Christians to "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God". You think these Christians are sealed in the sense that they cannot ever lose their faith and can't ever quench the Holy Spirit. Then, what do you make of a passage like Hebrews 3:12-15 which suggests that it's possible for a Christian to develop "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God"? Only a true Christian can depart from the living God since only a true Christian belongs to God in the first place.

And then notice in verse 14 where it says "we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". Your theology says basically "we are partakers of Christ because we are guaranteed to hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". But, scripture says "we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". That word "if" there implies that holding the beginning of our confidence/faith stedfast unto the end is not a guarantee, as you believe.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I believe those that are alive and remain will be changed as well at the last trump. They will put on immortality. It states "all are changed" regardless.

You're missing the point. What you're describing there is not a resurrection, it's an instant change from mortality to immortality.

Remember, we're talking about Revelation 20:6 and how it talks about how those who have part in the first resurrection avoid the second death, which is the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15). The second death has no power over them. Does someone need to be bodily resurrected in order to avoid the second death or is it true that right now the second death has no power over the souls of the dead in Christ? It has no power over them now, right? They don't have to wait for their bodies to be resurrected and changed in order for that to be the case.

So, to me, this means they have already had part in the first resurrection because it is already true for them that the second death has no power over them. And I believe Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) since scripture specifically teaches that and I believe having part in the first resurrection is to spiritually have part in His resurrection (Eph 2:4-6, Romans 6:1-4, Col 2:12-13).

In my view, one MUST have part in the first resurrection in order to avoid the second death and I believe that is what Revelation 20:6 indicates. So, those who are alive and remain until Christ comes, who won't die and will not be resurrected, can't have part in the first resurrection if that refers to the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His second coming. But, they too can be said to have had part in the first resurrection if that is talking about spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection, as I believe.

 

[Truth7t7]

My theology lines up with scripture, overall, and your apparent Calvinist theology does not. You are not looking at the big picture and just drawing conclusions from a few verses. That is not wise. I'm sure @JulieB67 will agree with me on this.

Let's start with the sealing of the Holy Spirit. That's something God does, but does that mean we no longer have free will when we become saved? Does He force us to keep our faith and endure to the end or is that our choice?

What do you make of this:

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

First of all, why would Paul need to "pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" if that was certain to happen, as you believe? That would mean Paul was praying for no reason.

Also, notice how Paul told believers to "Quench not the Spirit". The Greek word translated as "Quench" there is sbennymi (Strong's G4570) and it means to extinguish. How can we quench or extinguish the Holy Spirit if we are automatically sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption? That is contradictory. You obviously haven't even thought of this as you do only the bare minimum when studying scripture instead of making the effort to dig deeper to find the truth. That's why your eschatology is all over the place and is a mess.

That same Greek word translated as "quench" in 1 Thess 5:19 is used here:

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out (sbennymi). But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

So, in this parable, all ten virgins start out having oil. The oil in this parable represents the Holy Spirit because it represents what saved people have in them and unsaved people don't have in them. But, what happens to the foolish virgins? They don't take any extra oil with them when they go to meet the bridegroom. And then they all fall asleep while waiting for Him. Since the wise virgins took extra oil with them, they don't run out of oil before He comes. But since the foolish virgins don't take any extra oil with them, their lamps burn out (extinguish). This represents someone quenching the Holy Spirit. What happens to such a person? When Jesus comes they will plead with Him to let them inherit the kingdom of God, but He will say that He doesn't know them.

So, clearly, your understanding of the sealing of the Holy Spirit is flawed. It is not a seal that forces us to continue having faith. It can be broken if we fall away from the faith, which scripture warns us against several times (for example, Hebrews 3:12-16).

As for John 10:27-30, you again are reading more into that passage than what is actually said there. Yes, it's true that no one can pluck us out of God's hand. That means no one can force us to renounce our faith. Very true. However, you are only looking at part of the story. What that passage does not say is that we can't lose our faith and fall away (apostatize). Scripture says we can lose our faith and fall away and warns us against that.

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;....12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Notice here that Hebrews 3:12-15 is being addressed to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" who share "our profession" of Christ Jesus. That's obviously a description of true Christians. And then it warns these true Christians to "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God". You think these Christians are sealed in the sense that they cannot ever lose their faith and can't ever quench the Holy Spirit. Then, what do you make of a passage like Hebrews 3:12-15 which suggests that it's possible for a Christian to develop "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God"? Only a true Christian can depart from the living God since only a true Christian belongs to God in the first place.

And then notice in verse 14 where it says "we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". Your theology says basically "we are partakers of Christ because we are guaranteed to hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". But, scripture says "we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". That word "if" there implies that holding the beginning of our confidence/faith stedfast unto the end is not a guarantee, as you believe.

A person isn't saved until they're sealed by God the Holy Spirit

Once a saved believer is sealed its until redemption, they're in the fathers hand, read God's words below again and again, you're not going to change God's truth below

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:27-30KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.