Darkness and light and man’s nature

Dan1988

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19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20

It would appear from these verses that man’s nature bent is away from God.

Agree or disagree?
I'm surprised to see so many Christians holding to a belief that salvation comes down to making a personal choice. I've never found anything in the bible to support that view.

The bible is quite clear that we're all born dead in our sins and trespasses and none seek God. As sinners our natural desire is to feed our sinful lusts.
So why would such a person decide to deny himself a life of pleasure and choose to be hated by the world and suffer persecution, torture and death to follow Christ.

The bible says that the word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing. Some of the worlds greatest minds have dismissed the gospel as rubbish, so to believe or reject has nothing to do with how smart we are.

The only logical conclusion is the biblical one that says that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin. And He made that choice before He created the world.
 
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fhansen

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19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20

It would appear from these verses that man’s nature bent is away from God.

Agree or disagree?
Yes, bent away is a good way to put it, not necessarily totally unconvinced of His reality and our need for Him perhaps yet turned away from Him, preferring ourselves to Him with our pride, lacking intimate knowledge of Him and preferring things that way, lost in rebellion so to speak.

That's why it's so important that man learns the lesson here on planet earth, a place where man's will reigns for all practical purposes, with all the evil in our relationships that results, and with the inevitable suffering of life along with uncertainty of future existence with death looming, that he really does need God, in opposition to Adam's virtual dismissal of Him, realizing instead that God not only exists but is unfathomably good and trustworthy and deserving of our trust and love. Having already come to sense that something's missing here, with revelation and grace we can then begin to learn what it means to love Him because He first loved us. This lesson can require time, and can become increasingly embraced as we come to hate the worlds offerings and values and begin to hunger and thirst for true righteousness and justice. As that happens we become malleable for the gift of faith offered.
 
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Tone

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What is the condition of our nature? Scripture uses contrasts like dead/alive, sheep/goats, etc.

Where is man, in your view, before and after the light shines on us?

I would say that we are unnatural (post "Fall"), so the "condition of our nature" is twisted in deep darkness (profound confusion).

Before the light shines, man is lost in a sea of subjectivity, if you will, with no way to orient himself...adrift...so deluded, that all he can do, to have some sense of peace, is cling to illusion.

After the light shines, there is resistance within and without...objects present themselves and they must be dealt with--no longer deniable...fear surges more powerful and pervasive than ever before...it is a real fear, of exposure...

*We are castaways...no longer sailing...adrift at sea...traveling the length of our dreams...

**And as the light continues in its undying glorious shine, the castaway looks around and suddenly sees that, the illusion he so desperately clung to, was, in fact, an unknown rock...that grows and grows gradually into a land he has never known...a land of true peace...
 
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-Sasha-

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19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20

It would appear from these verses that man’s nature bent is away from God.

Agree or disagree?
What do you mean by "man's nature"? Is not man's nature best described as being "in the image and likeness of God"? Or are you referring instead to man's behavior?
 
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-Sasha-

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I'm surprised to see so many Christians holding to a belief that salvation comes down to making a personal choice. I've never found anything in the bible to support that view.

The bible is quite clear that we're all born dead in our sins and trespasses and none seek God. As sinners our natural desire is to feed our sinful lusts.
So why would such a person decide to deny himself a life of pleasure and choose to be hated by the world and suffer persecution, torture and death to follow Christ.

The bible says that the word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing. Some of the worlds greatest minds have dismissed the gospel as rubbish, so to believe or reject has nothing to do with how smart we are.

The only logical conclusion is the biblical one that says that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin. And He made that choice before He created the world.
Let us say you have a garment... The nature of this garment - how it was created and intended to be - is spotless and not being torn or damaged, beautiful and without blemish. If you dirty or tear the garment, has its nature been changed? Is this now the accepted way that the garment ought to be, do you say it was intended from the outset that it be this way? Or do you instead recognize the dirt and holes as not being the natural state of the thing, and once seeing them, ought you to try and return it to its original state by cleaning and repairing it?

Those who have destroyed their garment may not notice it when they are in darkness, or may not be bothered by it if everyone elses garments also bear the same dirt... But if they are to step into the light, or if they are to encounter One whose garment is in its intended state, they will become conscious of the wretched state of their own. So what will they do in this situation? Will they take care to mend and cleanse their own? Or try to turn off the light? Or try to destroy the clean garment so it will match their own?

Well I guess we know the answer to that question, because the One without stain was mocked and hated unto crucifixion in just such an attempt to banish the light, or at least to destroy an example of how we ought to be. If our very nature was to be torn and dirtied, why would we be bothered by seeing ourselves so? Why would we desire to abolish the light in an attempt to avoid seeing ourselves as we are if we didn't know at some level that it isn't the natural way we ought to be?

I don't think it is as a result of intelligence that one would desire their garment be cleansed rather than remain dirty, when all around them were also dirty but One. Quite the opposite. Rather, I believe it is the result of humility and love... Of acknowledging that your garment is not as it ought to be despite the fact that its damage is thanks to your own actions upon it...of admiring the One which is as it ought to be, rather than being jealous or reviling it for exposing the flaws of your own. Our intelligence will reason that if all men are dirty, we shouldn't be concerned with becoming clean. Our simpleminded adoration of the beautiful will nudge us to aspire to it.

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."
 
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Ken Rank

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Okay. So people who are saved just make better choices. Got it.

It’s not biblical, but I least I understand where you are coming from.
I didn't say that either. A person who chooses to turn to God does so before he is saved. It is only AFTER you turn to God and repent that you become a child of God. So the initial choice is done against your nature.

Why keep adding to what I think and say?
 
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Monk Brendan

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Wouldn’t it be against man’s nature to “plug back in”?
Not really.

Eastern Christianity sees sin as something extrinsic to our nature, an undesirable add-on.

This goes against Western, and especially most Protestants, who talk about a "sin nature."
 
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fhansen

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In RCC teaching the chief aspect of the state often known as Original Sin is spiritual separation from God, sometimes referred to as the "death of the soul". This separation, itself, constitutes an unjust or disordered state of being for man and virtually ensures that he will lack self-control. By sort of assuming more control for himself, Adam actually lost control; his morality became subjective, relative, as he took over God's position of authority within himself. Because, "Apart from Me you can do nothing". John 15:5

Man's nature didn't change, he just lost something that was vital to his very being and integrity and in the process became lost himself, wounded, corrupted, sick, not even knowing, if he bothers to care, where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if anything, and where he's going, if anywhere. Jesus came, when the time was ripe in human history, when the human race was just ready to begin to receive it, to set that record straight, to reveal and restore the full "knowledge of God".
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20

It would appear from these verses that man’s nature bent is away from God.

Agree or disagree?
There was never any question about this through all Scripture.

All society (mankind) is wickedly pernicious - death dealing. ALL opposed to Yahuweh and His Word,
as is clear always throughout His Word, and throughout history.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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So the initial choice is done against your nature.
What causes a person to make a choice against their nature? If behavior is the product of the person's nature, then the choice would follow the nature.
 
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fhansen

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What causes a person to make a choice against their nature? If behavior is the product of the person's nature, then the choice would follow the nature.
Human, nature, sans God and His direct control, is severely lacking in its ability to direct man to live in a manner of self-control. Appetites large and small will take over easily; concupiscence reigns. Man was made for a relationship of loving subjugation to His Creator. He is just given the freedom to say yes or no to that relationship, and, having said “no” at the beginning, to now learn the reason to say “yes." God's hand is essential if this event is to take place since man was completely lost once divorced from the relationship as it was established in Eden. He needs to regain the "knowledge of God", which is what Jesus came to reveal.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20

It would appear from these verses that man’s nature bent is away from God.

Agree or disagree?
Jesus operated with this assumption and did everything he could to alienate this aspect of humanity entirely. He was left with 12 disciples.

Edit: Since one of them was a devil, I'd disagree that the reason "lest his works should be exposed" drives people away from God entirely, I mean Judas even felt guilty. Also, Peter was exposed after denying Him twice and did not give up on seeking God, and he wasn't even born again yet.

So I wouldn't say the concept that all people are bent away from God entirely as a default is an absolute rule ... but it's the case most of the time. Most people, if they went through the discipleship process with Jesus as the original disciples did, would have left him also. Without the Holy Spirit, there aren't many.
 
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~Zao~

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It’s biblical to say that light at some point falls on everyone’s path. All are said to be without excuse.
Romans 1:18-21

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all the iniquity and wickedness of men who unjustly suppress the truth; Because that which may be known of God is manifested to them, for God has revealed it to them. For, from the very creation of the world, the invisible things of God have been clearly seen and understood by His creations, even His eternal power and GodHead; so that they are without excuse. For they knew God and did not glorify Him in giving thanks to Him as God, but became vain in their imaginations, and their hearts were darkened so that they could not understand.​

When light (enlightenment) falls from the heavenly source it’s purpose is to shine forth the love that the Father has for the world, not just in the created world but extending to the known Word sent forth to redeem the fallen world. Light then is love. Love is the revelation sent forth received as truth. Yielding to truth is love reciprocated. Love reciprocated shines more light on the path, love again received and reciprocated in yielding to the revelation produces more light and a perpetual growth occurs.

Otoh truth and enlightenment known are hidden and buried, when light shines again, sin, like bugs under a rock that’s been lifted up, scurry away to hide themselves again.



Nature as a child doesn’t have an agenda.

That’s a very clumsy take on G. Campbell Morgan's analogy with a bit from an old pastor with my own twist that makes it make sense in my mind.
 
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FireDragon76

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It depends. If we mean nature in a philosophical sense, what a thing is in itself, obviously we were created for communion with God. But if we mean nature as the state we are in, then you are more or less correct.
 
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Knee V

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That passage can't be used that way.

"19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Christ is contrasting two groups in the Judgment: those who hate the Light and those who love the Light. Those who hate the Light do evil and won't come to the Light. Those who love the Light do good and come to the Light.

Stopping at verse 20 might give the impression that Christ is talking about all of mankind in verse 20, but continuing on to verse 21 shows that those in verse 20 are only one part of mankind.
 
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Hammster

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That passage can't be used that way.

"19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Christ is contrasting two groups in the Judgment: those who hate the Light and those who love the Light. Those who hate the Light do evil and won't come to the Light. Those who love the Light do good and come to the Light.

Stopping at verse 20 might give the impression that Christ is talking about all of mankind in verse 20, but continuing on to verse 21 shows that those in verse 20 are only one part of mankind.
I’m not sure that helps. It still doesn’t answer the question of why some practice the truth.
 
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