Darkness and light and man’s nature

[fhansen]

Again, sigh. There is no explanation and again with the sophomoric shots. Some choose God, some don't... it's just the way it is. We see this throughout our lives... it is a fact of life throughout history. WHY? Don't know... He knows... ask Him!

And it aligns with life experience in general. Man is a moral being, with free will, and is therefore morally accountable. And this is the reason why even with criminal behavior we not only hold people accountable for practical reasons but also because we simply know right from wrong, having a sense of justice instilled in us as part of our natures; moral outrage or righteous indignation towards injustices committed are the norm for a rational human being with a sound mind.

 

[icxn]

Human nature is human nature is human nature. There are not different kinds of human nature. There is no such thing as "fallen human nature" nor "regenerate human nature". There is simply human nature. The nature itself is the same for every human being ever to live.

The idea that there is more than one kind of human nature is christologically problematic. If we sin because we have one kind of human nature which is inclined to sin - just as fish nature makes a fish inclined to remain in the water and breathe through gills - and Christ has one kind of human nature which is not inclined toward sin, then we are left with a situation in which there is functionally no Incarnation. If we are one kind of creature with a particular kind of nature, and the Logos took on a nature which was different from ours, then Christ did not become what we are. Either we are human and He is something else, or He is human and we are something else. Either way, it makes it so that He became man in a way that we are not, and thus there is no Incarnation, no Gospel, and no salvation.

Well said... Knee.

I would also add that what happened to us after the fall was not a change of nature, but an infection of sin and death, a kind of injury inflicted on us be the spiritual thieves (demons), as the parable of the good Samaritan portrays. The traveler is humanity, Jerusalem the blessedness of Paradise from whence we were expelled for the sorrows and sufferings of this life (Jericho). Priest and Levi are the Law and the Prophets that failed to (or rather could not) heal our wounds, but only Christ, the Good Samaritan, by means of oil and wine, which have multiple meanings. Through the suffering and death of His body (donkey) he carried the burden of our sins and joined us to His Church (the inn) and entrusted us to His ministers to attend to our needs until He comes.

 

[Ken Rank]

He’s already said. In His word. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

He has said why some turn to Him and some don't. Book, chapter and verse please? Thanks.

 

[Ken Rank]

Good day, Ken

I believe scripture answers this those given to the Son by the Father come.

Not given no coming.

In Him,

Bill

What constitutes giving Bill? Some were designed to be saved and others are designed to be damned? I have a problem with that because of the character attributes of God. Love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering... willing to give mercy to 10 generations and so forth. The idea that a being with those attributes created some to be damned is something I can't accept. So is there another explanation?

Thanks.
Ken

 

[Dan1988]

Let us say you have a garment... The nature of this garment - how it was created and intended to be - is spotless and not being torn or damaged, beautiful and without blemish. If you dirty or tear the garment, has its nature been changed? Is this now the accepted way that the garment ought to be, do you say it was intended from the outset that it be this way? Or do you instead recognize the dirt and holes as not being the natural state of the thing, and once seeing them, ought you to try and return it to its original state by cleaning and repairing it?

Those who have destroyed their garment may not notice it when they are in darkness, or may not be bothered by it if everyone elses garments also bear the same dirt... But if they are to step into the light, or if they are to encounter One whose garment is in its intended state, they will become conscious of the wretched state of their own. So what will they do in this situation? Will they take care to mend and cleanse their own? Or try to turn off the light? Or try to destroy the clean garment so it will match their own?

Well I guess we know the answer to that question, because the One without stain was mocked and hated unto crucifixion in just such an attempt to banish the light, or at least to destroy an example of how we ought to be. If our very nature was to be torn and dirtied, why would we be bothered by seeing ourselves so? Why would we desire to abolish the light in an attempt to avoid seeing ourselves as we are if we didn't know at some level that it isn't the natural way we ought to be?

I don't think it is as a result of intelligence that one would desire their garment be cleansed rather than remain dirty, when all around them were also dirty but One. Quite the opposite. Rather, I believe it is the result of humility and love... Of acknowledging that your garment is not as it ought to be despite the fact that its damage is thanks to your own actions upon it...of admiring the One which is as it ought to be, rather than being jealous or reviling it for exposing the flaws of your own. Our intelligence will reason that if all men are dirty, we shouldn't be concerned with becoming clean. Our simpleminded adoration of the beautiful will nudge us to aspire to it.

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."

Your summary of how a person decides to turn from his sins, repent and believe is not Biblical. I don't know how came to your conclusion, but it sounds like you used human reasoning to explain a spiritual matter.

The Bible tells us that the only people who were created with clean garments, were Adan and Eve. We know it didn't take long for them to stain them and everyone born after them inherited their stained garments at the point of their conception.

I appreciate you effort in sharing your thoughts, but Christ told us the truth about the matter when He said "there is none good but God". There are many scriptures which describe the heart of man as being wicked above all things.

So with all due respect, I must dismiss your view as being untrue because Christ said let every man be a liar and let God be true. Please don't take it personally, as the same applies to all human reasoning if it's not in line with Holy Scripture.

Gods Word tells us that we were all born dead in our sins and trespasses, and that salvation is the work of God from start to finish. So if God doesn't quicken us to life, we remain spiritually dead.

 

[BBAS 64]

What constitutes giving Bill? Some were designed to be saved and others are designed to be damned? I have a problem with that because of the character attributes of God. Love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering... willing to give mercy to 10 generations and so forth. The idea that a being with those attributes created some to be damned is something I can't accept. So is there another explanation?

Thanks.
Ken

Good Day, Ken

Do you affirm the biblical teaching I outlined...

"I believe scripture answers this those given to the Son by the Father come.

Not given no coming."

You are asking a great question in the follow up, but need to get your affirmation as to the validity in your mind of that statement... I do not think the answer to the follow-up takes away from the objective reality of the statement itself.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Hammster]

He has said why some turn to Him and some don't. Book, chapter and verse please? Thanks.

John 10.

 

[Dan1988]

Human nature is human nature is human nature. There are not different kinds of human nature. There is no such thing as "fallen human nature" nor "regenerate human nature". There is simply human nature. The nature itself is the same for every human being ever to live.

The idea that there is more than one kind of human nature is christologically problematic. If we sin because we have one kind of human nature which is inclined to sin - just as fish nature makes a fish inclined to remain in the water and breathe through gills - and Christ has one kind of human nature which is not inclined toward sin, then we are left with a situation in which there is functionally no Incarnation. If we are one kind of creature with a particular kind of nature, and the Logos took on a nature which was different from ours, then Christ did not become what we are. Either we are human and He is something else, or He is human and we are something else. Either way, it makes it so that He became man in a way that we are not, and thus there is no Incarnation, no Gospel, and no salvation.

The scriptures say that Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time. He had to suffer pain and experience temptation as any other man, He never used His devine power to alleviate the pain or resist Satan's temptation in the desert.

The Bible does say that all of mankind is born with a fallen sinful nature and only God can regenerate the person by giving him a new Christ like nature.

 

[BBAS 64]

He has said why some turn to Him and some don't. Book, chapter and verse please? Thanks.

Good day, Ken

John 8 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil.

The devil is their father, they can not understand...

John 6 No one can come to me

Total inability to come.


Turning is the work of God, he alone is the cause

EZe 36 New covenant promise:

I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

You must be born from above, that with is flesh is flesh, that which is Spirit is Spirit. God the Father adopts his children they are born of God from above.

No adoption no.. ?, well you get the point

There ya go..

in Him,

Bill

 

[Knee V]

It says nothing of the sort.

The Bible does say that all of mankind is born with a fallen sinful nature and only God can regenerate the person by giving him a new Christ like nature.

 

[Hammster]

This fits with the topic.

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:18-31

 

[fhansen]

This fits with the topic.

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:18-31

I agree-that pretty much fits it. "Apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5

 

[fhansen]

Good day, Ken

John 8 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil.

The devil is their father, they can not understand...

John 6 No one can come to me

Total inability to come.

Turning is the work of God, he alone is the cause

EZe 36 New covenant promise:

I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

You must be born from above, that with is flesh is flesh, that which is Spirit is Spirit. God the Father adopts his children they are born of God from above.

No adoption no.. ?, well you get the point

There ya go..

in Him,

Bill

And yet we know that this righteousness doesn’t necessarily just exude from a believer, especially at first, as if fruit were to blossom all at once. It’s not a cut and dry dramatic difference-and many professed believers seem to have little or no fruit even later as far as can be seen. They just believe- and may or may not be satisfied and comfortable with that by itself.

In any case believers are justified by their turning to God, whereby He washes, cleanses; sins are forgiven and taken away and a new creation is made, a new righteousness given to him in seedling form-capable of increasing as we continue to abide in Him and He in us. So from that point the believer is to walk in that just state, and increase that justice even more by cooperating with grace, with more expected from those given more as he’s molded, tested, challenged, and refined. He's been saved but must make his calling and election sure. He's been saved and yet must still work out his salvation because what he does and continues to do with the gift(s) given, with God's help IOW, determines his eternal destiny. He's to invest and increase his "talents" the best he can. He may or may not persevere to the end. He may or may not return to sin, which opposes God and earns the wage of death, as he’ll be tempted by sin throughout his life. Sin will still try to dominate and prevail. This is why it’s very important that justification and sanctification not be separated. Even our initial justification, the justice/righteousness given, is real, authentic, not pretend, and, again, expected to blossom.

Man can’t approach God on his own; he wouldn’t even have a clue how to find Him even if he tried. But he can still say no to God anytime, at the beginning, refusing to be converted, or any time after that point.

 

[Hammster]

And yet we know that this righteousness doesn’t necessarily just exude from a believer, especially at first, as if fruit were to blossom all at once.

It never does. Our righteous is foreign.

 

[fhansen]

Our righteous is foreign.

Of course its foreign. Adam forfeited any righteousness that was meant to be his as he assumed the position of God for himself, determining his own "righteousness" rather than possessing the "righteousness of God" that he was created for. That's what man's been doing ever since. But, also ever since, God has been patiently working to ultimately restore justice to His creation, certainly not to suddenly decide to ignore it. He, alone, can "place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts".

Mans' here to learn that lesson, to learn just how much he needs God-and this world is a perfect school for just that type of education. Man cannot justify himself by the law, which is the same as saying that the law cannot justify. Man must turn to God first of all in order to be justified-and remain in communion with Him.

 

[fhansen]

It never does. Our righteous is foreign.

Are you saying that God can't make a human righteous or just-that the best He can do is create sinners who never had a means to be better than that? And that was all He wanted from-and for-us?

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying that God can't make a human righteous or just-that the best He can do is create sinners who never had a means to be better than that? And that was all He wanted from-and for-us?

I would never, ever, ever say that anything He does is just the best He can do.

Our righteousness is purely of Christ because we are in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

I would never, ever, ever say that anything He does is just the best He can do.

Our righteousness is purely of Christ because we are in Christ.

Ok. I'll take that as begging the question. Or just not understanding God's will very well-His plan for man.

 

[Dan1988]

It says nothing of the sort.

The Holy Bible makes it plain and clear, in many passages in the OT and NT.

Here are just a few that come to mind but there are many many more.

Mark 7:21 Genesis 6:12 Romans 7:23 Galatians 5:17 Jeremiah 17:9

We either believe Gods Word as we have it in Holy Scripture or we reject it at our own peril.

 

[Hammster]

Ok. I'll take that as begging the question. Or just not understanding God's will very well-His plan for man.

Huh?