He Who is of the Truth Hears Mine Voice

[Dima 26]

In context of the gospel, it is widely believed that sin (from the perspective of an increase of rebellion towards God) was not, and still not, a hindrance to faith - once someone is presented with the gospel itself; although what I'm alluding to primarily concerns the time when Christ Himself was ministering the truth. Now while I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong (or right), how do you understand this in light of what Jesus told Nicodemus:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

If Christ is that light that came into the world (which He is), it is illustrating rather candidly that the world's inability to believe in Him is because of their evil deeds, while also implying right after that those who believe do so because they come to the light (as something that illuminates the works of man - something that Christ surely did) out of the confidence that they practice the truth, and want full assurance that their works are approved of God. How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

 

[Neogaia777]

How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

It basically means that all of our trying to do right is always done out of selfish or self-centered/self-serving motivations and reasons when you dig down deep enough, etc, and that when you do dig down that deep into a person's insides, that's what you will always find, etc. But also that God, being the grand great orchestrator of all that He is, and being the only one truly good, or righteous, etc, makes it all work out and work together for the always highest and greatest and most best good for all anyways always, etc.

We are never, ever accepted because of us, but only because of God, etc.

And in that, all of our righteousness is like filthy rags, etc.

If He didn't already choose you in spite of anything you could do, or could/would not do, etc, then you are not/never were one of His, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Yarddog]

In context of the gospel, it is widely believed that sin (from the perspective of an increase of rebellion towards God) was not, and still not, a hindrance to faith - once someone is presented with the gospel itself; although what I'm alluding to primarily concerns the time when Christ Himself was ministering the truth. Now while I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong (or right), how do you understand this in light of what Jesus told Nicodemus:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

If Christ is that light that came into the world (which He is), it is illustrating rather candidly that the world's inability to believe in Him is because of their evil deeds, while also implying right after that those who believe do so because they come to the light (as something that illuminates the works of man - something that Christ surely did) out of the confidence that they practice the truth, and want full assurance that their works are approved of God. How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

One of the worst things that man can do is believe that he is capable of being worthy of salvation by doing works. In doing so, he denies the need for God. This is what the Tower of Babel refers to. ( Trying to attain heaven through man's works)

Those who practice the truth are those that deny themselves and surrender to that Spirit which God gives his children through baptism. By allowing that Holy Spirit to work within us, we please God. God can then create us a new, in his image. We begin to change because the Spirit is working within us. The righteousness we have is God's righteousness and we are alive in God's rest. His Sabbath.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus is the Truth John 14:6
His Word is the Truth John 17:17
His Law is the Truth Psalm 119:142 Psa 119:151

We need the whole Truth, which sets us free John 8:31-32

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In context of the gospel, it is widely believed that sin (from the perspective of an increase of rebellion towards God) was not, and still not, a hindrance to faith - once someone is presented with the gospel itself; although what I'm alluding to primarily concerns the time when Christ Himself was ministering the truth. Now while I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong (or right), how do you understand this in light of what Jesus told Nicodemus:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

If Christ is that light that came into the world (which He is), it is illustrating rather candidly that the world's inability to believe in Him is because of their evil deeds, while also implying right after that those who believe do so because they come to the light (as something that illuminates the works of man - something that Christ surely did) out of the confidence that they practice the truth, and want full assurance that their works are approved of God. How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

First ,Isaiah 64 is a prayer for Israel. Isaiah is pointing out the sinfulness of it's people by descriptors; filthy rags,unclean,fading as a leaf,taken away by wind and consumed by iniquities. Then Isaiah prays to the Father that, even though Israel has turned her back on Him, pleads for forgiveness. It's a beautiful prayer not to be taken as a " closed door" approach to salvation for God has patience and love. Those who love Him, the remnant, will be saved. Blessings.

Isaiah 65
Thus says the Lord...

“As the new wine is found in the cluster,
And one says, ‘Do not destroy it,
For a blessing is in it,’
So will I do for My servants’ sake,
That I may not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.
10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
For My people who have sought Me.

 

[BobRyan]

In context of the gospel, it is widely believed that sin (from the perspective of an increase of rebellion towards God) was not, and still not, a hindrance to faith - once someone is presented with the gospel itself; although what I'm alluding to primarily concerns the time when Christ Himself was ministering the truth. Now while I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong (or right), how do you understand this in light of what Jesus told Nicodemus:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

If Christ is that light that came into the world (which He is), it is illustrating rather candidly that the world's inability to believe in Him is because of their evil deeds, while also implying right after that those who believe do so because they come to the light (as something that illuminates the works of man - something that Christ surely did) out of the confidence that they practice the truth, and want full assurance that their works are approved of God. How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

The solution is the John 6 supernatural drawing of God - no one comes to Christ unless God draws him/her.
And John 12:32 says "God draws all mankind to Himself" supernaturally.

So then the fix that is needed is available to all.

So it is as Rev 3 says that for all the lost "God stands at the door and knocks, if anyone hears His voice AND ALSO chooses to open the door - then for that person God will come in" - for that person the New Covenant becomes a reality.

 

[Rose_bud]

In context of the gospel, it is widely believed that sin (from the perspective of an increase of rebellion towards God) was not, and still not, a hindrance to faith - once someone is presented with the gospel itself; although what I'm alluding to primarily concerns the time when Christ Himself was ministering the truth. Now while I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong (or right), how do you understand this in light of what Jesus told Nicodemus:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

If Christ is that light that came into the world (which He is), it is illustrating rather candidly that the world's inability to believe in Him is because of their evil deeds, while also implying right after that those who believe do so because they come to the light (as something that illuminates the works of man - something that Christ surely did) out of the confidence that they practice the truth, and want full assurance that their works are approved of God. How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

Hi there

God is the initiator of all good. It always starts with Him. Although Nicodemus comes to Him, I believe Jesus is making Him understand that it was God drawing Him to the light (which is only later revealed).

There is a play on words (contrast) with light and darkness throughout John's books. Nicodemus comes to Him at night.
He calls Him Rabbi, meaning teacher...

‭‭John 3:2
‭‭this man came to Jesus at night (dark) and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with Him.

After engaging with Him on being born anew/ from above, Jesus responds to Him, are you not a teacher of Israel?
(Mmm ..He was God from above.. more than a teacher...Nicodemus the teacher)

He references the snake in the wilderness as a sign... even in the wilderness it was God who initiated/provided a remedy for the consequences of sinning against Him, their response was to look and live. (requires a quite a bit of belief/faith to get healing by looking at a bronze snake on a pole,...but maybe that's just me with my modern thinking).

The Light I understand to be references to Isaiah,9, 50 and also 60. Nicodemus would have known the scriptures as a teacher of Israel.

The passage could also be a reference to Nicodemus himself being one that later on no longer comes in the night but in the light i.e does deeds that is approved.

In that he later defends Jesus (John 7:50), interesting that the Pharisees ask if a Prophet will come from Galilee?

Isaiah 9:1-2 ..(not a Prophet but a Light) but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—
The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned. (maybe this triggered the conversation he had with Jesus)

Because later he wraps His body as per the Jewish customs (John 19.39-40).. his deeds in the light, approved by God.

 

[Dima 26]

I appreciate everyone's input.

One of the worst things that man can do is believe that he is capable of being worthy of salvation by doing works. In doing so, he denies the need for God. This is what the Tower of Babel refers to. ( Trying to attain heaven through man's works)

Just want to clarify that I do not believe man may merit His salvation with his works, as it is quite clear from scripture, our own testimony, and death itself that is a witness against all: that none is just before God. However, I was still trying to present this inquiry from the perspective that for this reason is the just man justified: because he seeks not his own righteousness (which cannot but amount to filthy rags before Him), but His righteousness. In other words, in seeking the righteousness of God, one pronounces judgement on his own righteousness - that it is ineffectual towards life (which true life is eternal), and places his hope in the grace and providence of God, that He will provide for those who fear and love Him. This was also the faith of Abraham when he offered up Isaac: The Lord Will Provide. Therefore, in context of what Jesus told Nicodemus, it may be thought that of such a faith are the ones who work the truth and come to the light as a result.

The solution is the John 6 supernatural drawing of God - no one comes to Christ unless God draws him/her.
And John 12:32 says "God draws all mankind to Himself" supernaturally.

So then the fix that is needed is available to all.

Yeah, I think you perceive correctly in that this ultimately leads us to the "drawing of God", or those whom He chooses. I guess it ultimately comes down to how we understand this to operate, or if we could at least understand it enough so that it is no longer some random choice (as far as man is concerned) without and rough boundaries by which it is reasonable to esteem God to operate from; for does He not communicate unto us His will? For the other option seems to disregard man's part in trying to obey His commandment's (not only in the form of a law; for repentance and the reception of the gospel is also His commandment), as though He is not pleased with it. And this is where many will have to concede and say that this "seeking and desire to obey God" is itself tied in to the Father's drawing, so as no longer sharing our part, but wholly His, in order for this notion to stand. This kind of thinking appears to show itself in statements like the one below from Neogaia777 (although correct me if I'm misrepresenting you; since on the flipside, we all say statements similar to these due to the nuances of the gospel's doctrines):

If He didn't already choose you in spite of anything you could do, or could/would not do, etc, then you are not/never were one of His, etc.

I'm more of the opinion that the whole of man's salvation - and all life's affairs for that matter - is a mutual union (as far as our will [imperfect as it may be] is concerned) between us and God.
"With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward." Psalm 18:25,26
Can it really be thought that that which God separates as man's duty, be somehow not his duty? Or what is the reason for Him testing the hearts of man? Thus, I believe the Father draws those who for their part fear and seek Him (God); so that the truth that He communicates to them by whatever the supernatural entails may lead them to the Son, so that the Son may reveal unto them the Father for Who He truly is, which is impossible without knowing first the Son Who is the express image of His Person. In this view therefore, it is not necessary for all to be drawn of God (for they want none of Him), neither yet excluding that some may resist His drawing, should any one of those be levied against me.

 

[Neogaia777]

I appreciate everyone's input.


Just want to clarify that I do not believe man may merit His salvation with his works, as it is quite clear from scripture, our own testimony, and death itself that is a witness against all: that none is just before God. However, I was still trying to present this inquiry from the perspective that for this reason is the just man justified: because he seeks not his own righteousness (which cannot but amount to filthy rags before Him), but His righteousness. In other words, in seeking the righteousness of God, one pronounces judgement on his own righteousness - that it is ineffectual towards life (which true life is eternal), and places his hope in the grace and providence of God, that He will provide for those who fear and love Him. This was also the faith of Abraham when he offered up Isaac: The Lord Will Provide. Therefore, in context of what Jesus told Nicodemus, it may be thought that of such a faith are the ones who work the truth and come to the light as a result.

Yeah, I think you perceive correctly in that this ultimately leads us to the "drawing of God", or those whom He chooses. I guess it ultimately comes down to how we understand this to operate, or if we could at least understand it enough so that it is no longer some random choice (as far as man is concerned) without and rough boundaries by which it is reasonable to esteem God to operate from; for does He not communicate unto us His will? For the other option seems to disregard man's part in trying to obey His commandment's (not only in the form of a law; for repentance and the reception of the gospel is also His commandment), as though He is not pleased with it. And this is where many will have to concede and say that this "seeking and desire to obey God" is itself tied in to the Father's drawing, so as no longer sharing our part, but wholly His, in order for this notion to stand. This kind of thinking appears to show itself in statements like the one below from Neogaia777 (although correct me if I'm misrepresenting you; since on the flipside, we all say statements similar to these due to the nuances of the gospel's doctrines):

I'm more of the opinion that the whole of man's salvation - and all life's affairs for that matter - is a mutual union (as far as our will [imperfect as it may be] is concerned) between us and God.
"With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward." Psalm 18:25,26
Can it really be thought that that which God separates as man's duty, be somehow not his duty? Or what is the reason for Him testing the hearts of man? Thus, I believe the Father draws those who for their part fear and seek Him (God); so that the truth that He communicates to them by whatever the supernatural entails may lead them to the Son, so that the Son may reveal unto them the Father for Who He truly is, which is impossible without knowing first the Son Who is the express image of His Person. In this view therefore, it is not necessary for all to be drawn of God (for they want none of Him), neither yet excluding that some may resist His drawing, should any one of those be levied against me.

Seeking Him will be irresistible if you are truly one of His, but only because He put that in you in His choosing of you to be one of His, etc.

God Bless.

 

[BobRyan]

John 12:32 "God draws all mankind unto Him"
John 6 says no one can come to Him unless they are drawn.

But the fact that all mankind (everyone without exception) are drawn to God - not all come.

Rev 3 says "I STAND at the door and knock, IF anyone hears my voice AND opens the door... I WILL come in"

All of that is the supernatural act of God and as Rom 2:11 says - it shows that "God is not partial" selecting some but not others.

Yeah, I think you perceive correctly in that this ultimately leads us to the "drawing of God", or those whom He chooses. I guess it ultimately comes down to how we understand this to operate

As long as "all means all" we have a pretty good Gospel model presented in scripture. It means we can't blame God for anyone that chooses to reject the gospel.

, or if we could at least understand it enough so that it is no longer some random choice

Indeed as Rom 2:11 says - this is absolutely not a function of arbitrary or random choice.

 

[BBAS 64]

In context of the gospel, it is widely believed that sin (from the perspective of an increase of rebellion towards God) was not, and still not, a hindrance to faith - once someone is presented with the gospel itself; although what I'm alluding to primarily concerns the time when Christ Himself was ministering the truth. Now while I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong (or right), how do you understand this in light of what Jesus told Nicodemus:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

If Christ is that light that came into the world (which He is), it is illustrating rather candidly that the world's inability to believe in Him is because of their evil deeds, while also implying right after that those who believe do so because they come to the light (as something that illuminates the works of man - something that Christ surely did) out of the confidence that they practice the truth, and want full assurance that their works are approved of God. How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

Good day, Dima

Jn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

The ones who can not bear to hear are children of the devil. The hearing ones have God as their Father because they are "of " God.

There is nothing in man that could causes him to love the light he hates, and hate the darkness he loves.

Given the choice man will always freely choose the darkness he loves over the light he hates he can do no other.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Dima 26]

John 12:32 "God draws all mankind unto Him"
John 6 says no one can come to Him unless they are drawn.

I agree that all who come to the Son are also drawn of the Father.

On a slightly different note, it might be useful to discuss what His drawing entails. In the same discourse where He tells the Jews that no one may come to Him unless drawn of the Father, right after He also says, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." From this it's noticeable that those who taught the ways of God in truth (such as the prophets) also served as one of the means by which He was to draw man unto the Son.

Rev 3 says "I STAND at the door and knock, IF anyone hears my voice AND opens the door... I WILL come in"

All of that is the supernatural act of God and as Rom 2:11 says - it shows that "God is not partial" selecting some but not others.

Indeed as Rom 2:11 says - this is absolutely not a function of arbitrary or random choice.

We also largely agree here.

Another thing that I think is worth mentioning is that the whole concept of the "Father's drawing" is not such as to simply demonstrate "God's power to choose whoever He wills entirely apart from one's will to take heed to those things He calls them unto" (though He may seemly do this with some; but this is more of an act of mercy, with man's will at last consenting, and not so as to disregard those who seek and fear Him), but rather to show that for this reason they are not able to receive Him: it is because they do not seek His will and glory, but their own. Hence why those who came to make Him king after He fed them, after hearing Him, turned away. Thus, those who might appear religious in many things and yet miss the essential things of God, are left without Him (not being drawn of Him), but those who may on the contrary be poor in spirit but seek Him and His righteousness first, find Him (being drawn of Him). The solution then is for man to seek first the righteousness of God, that the gospel may truly profit them - which is as a fishing net that catches both good and bad. Hence why Jesus Christ first sent John the Baptist, as it is spoken of him:
"Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

But the fact that all mankind (everyone without exception) are drawn to God - not all come.

As long as "all means all" we have a pretty good Gospel model presented in scripture. It means we can't blame God for anyone that chooses to reject the gospel.

I guess this is where we disagree, since I believe "all" is used in a generic sense, and not in a numerical sense. All as in all nations and peoples, and not necessarily those who want none of Him. This is because the drawing that Jesus speaks of had to do with being able to receive (understand) the culminating work and doctrine of God in Christ. This was not easy since Christ - being the Son of God - spoke nothing but the things of God - something that is impossible for man to grasp without His help (drawing). But those that want none of Him do not need this divine assistance, since they already deny Him in the common graces that are available to all. Because they are unfaithful in what is little, they are also denied the greater. This concept is noticeable in what Jesus told the Jews, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" But than again, if the ministry of the gospel (particularly when we persuade other's in a more direct manner) is part of how He draws man to Himself, than perhaps He does in that sense draw even those who want none of Him. Either way, this is getting quite nuanced in what is already a more difficult teaching, and I'm glad we can agree on the essential things.

 

[Dima 26]

Seeking Him will be irresistible if you are truly one of His, but only because He put that in you in His choosing of you to be one of His, etc.

The ones who can not bear to hear are children of the devil. The hearing ones have God as their Father because they are "of " God.

There is nothing in man that could causes him to love the light he hates, and hate the darkness he loves.

Given the choice man will always freely choose the darkness he loves over the light he hates he can do no other.

Does man have a actual duty towards God - which He actually requires from him, or is it only a figment, or hypothetical? What is our actual duty? To what end does God test the hearts of man if He chooses arbitrary?

 

[Neogaia777]

Does man have a actual duty towards God - which He actually requires from him, or is it only a figment, or hypothetical? What is our actual duty? To what end does God test the hearts of man if He chooses arbitrary?

Our duty is to better ourselves, or become better, and seek to know our God, and our world, etc, and other alike things, etc.

But when I talked about it being irresistible, or unable to be resisted, I did not say you wouldn't have times where you wanted to give up, or quit, or even get mad or angry with God, but that "that" would only be temporary in the end, or in other words, you might say it momentarily, or in a moment, but you'd just pick it right back up again, etc, and God already knows all of that, etc, even those temporary times, way, way, way ahead of time, etc, and knows that you would have your times where you would just say it or think it for a moment, but would just wind up just picking it right back up again, because that is how He made you, and how He already predestined your whole entire path to already go already, etc, and none of it ever surprises Him, etc, and He will not fault you for it in the end either, those temporary moments, etc, because that is how He made you, and already predestined your whole entire path to go already, and because you do always just pick it back up again, it only shows that you are one of His, etc. You don't sink into debauchery or hedonism or excessive sin like the rest, or completely lose your mind or heart or your head, but you just keep going on in trying to always do these very good things always again; and again, and again, and again, which just only shows you are one of His, etc, and you do get better, and/or improve along the way, etc, not just with your formerly very sinful ways, but also in your understanding of your world, and also Him, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Dima 26]

Our duty is to better ourselves, or become better, and seek to know our God, and our world, etc, and other alike things, etc.

But when I talked about it being irresistible, or unable to be resisted, I did not say you wouldn't have times where you wanted to give up, or quit, or even get mad or angry with God, but that "that" would only be temporary in the end, or in other words, you might say it momentarily, or in a moment, but you'd just pick it right back up again, etc, and God already knows all of that, etc, even those temporary times, way, way, way ahead of time, etc, and knows that you would have your times where you would just say it or think it for a moment, but would just wind up just picking it right back up again, because that is how He made you, and how He already predestined your whole entire path to already go already, etc, and none of it ever surprises Him, etc, and He will not fault you for it in the end either, those temporary moments, etc, because that is how He made you, and already predestined your whole entire path to go already, and because you do always just pick it back up again, it only shows that you are one of His, etc. You don't sink into debauchery or hedonism or excessive sin like the rest, or completely lose your mind or heart or your head, but you just keep going on in trying to always do these very good things always again; and again, and again, and again, which just only shows you are one of His, etc, and you do get better, and/or improve along the way, etc, not just with your formerly very sinful ways, but also in your understanding of your world, and also Him, etc.

God Bless.

Yeah, this is what I call a fatalistic view of God, and to be frank: I reject it as unsound. Now I agree that the just man may (and often does) fall seven times and rises up again (Proverbs 24:15, 16), but the error is to make God the architect of it, and every singular event of life for that matter - whether good or evil. This is fatalism. On what scriptural and/or rational grounds should I draw such a view of God? Here are some propositions that undermine such a view:

• If God is entirely sovereign and does anything according to His will, then can He not also choose to make creatures that have a real true freewill (and not a figment)?
• If God knows everything in advance - which is called foreknowledge, then does not that alone imply that He actually allows certain things to play out according to the desires of His creatures? One does not need to foreknow something that one is predestining. In a fatalistic sense, predestination would supersede foreknowledge. Neither is He bound by foreknowledge, as though He is limited by other things (whatever they are), as even seen from when He changes His mind. Genesis 6:6, 1 Samuel 15:11
• A real true freewill in His creatures actually emphasizes the all-sovereign and omnipotence of God much more, in that all His purposes, judgements, thoughts, and decisions shall surely come to pass and stand, despite anything His creature might think otherwise. Thus, He humbles the proud, and exalts the humble - unto His glory.
• Indeed, the Prime Mover does move us who also move, but why can it not be that the Prime Mover is mindful of how we move ourselves in His determinations of how to move us?

Personally, I don't even like to have to scrutinize such matters that are sometimes better off left to God - to whom they belong. I think we sometimes get too caught up in our so-called "theological zeal" such that we lose site of the teachings that actually advance His kingdom and righteousness. But when fatalism manifests itself so openly, I don't think it should be ignored. Indeed, God is awesome, almighty, unaccounted for, dreadful, unfathomable, all-knowing, the reason for all (not to be taken in a fatalistic sense); but did not even the pagans know such things? Does He not want us above all to look to His righteousness, mercy, truth, judgement, and holiness - to perceive that image in which we were made, and Christ Who displayed it wholly unto us? Does He not communicate His mind to those who are faithful - though it be in that which is little? If love is what many esteem so highly, then cannot it be at least left in its entire form - mutual, and not one-sided? Must so-called sovereignty trump all - so as to look at everything through its lens?

Anyways, I hope you don't take any of this offensively. This is not directed at you but the idea that seems to be alive in many, though often hiding in its full form. I figure that things that are right, when challenged, only get stronger; hence why I expect mine sayings to get challenged likewise, too see if there is anything unsound in them.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yeah, this is what I call a fatalistic view of God, and to be frank: I reject it as unsound. Now I agree that the just man may (and often does) fall seven times and rises up again (Proverbs 24:15, 16), but the error is to make God the architect of it, and every singular event of life for that matter - whether good or evil. This is fatalism. On what scriptural and/or rational grounds should I draw such a view of God? Here are some propositions that undermine such a view:

• If God is entirely sovereign and does anything according to His will, then can He not also choose to make creatures that have a real true freewill (and not a figment)?
• If God knows everything in advance - which is called foreknowledge, then does not that alone imply that He actually allows certain things to play out according to the desires of His creatures? One does not need to foreknow something that one is predestining. In a fatalistic sense, predestination would supersede foreknowledge. Neither is He bound by foreknowledge, as though He is limited by other things (whatever they are), as even seen from when He changes His mind. Genesis 6:6, 1 Samuel 15:11
• A real true freewill in His creatures actually emphasizes the all-sovereign and omnipotence of God much more, in that all His purposes, judgements, thoughts, and decisions shall surely come to pass and stand, despite anything His creature might think otherwise. Thus, He humbles the proud, and exalts the humble - unto His glory.
• Indeed, the Prime Mover does move us who also move, but why can it not be that the Prime Mover is mindful of how we move ourselves in His determinations of how to move us?

Personally, I don't even like to have to scrutinize such matters that are sometimes better off left to God - to whom they belong. I think we sometimes get too caught up in our so-called "theological zeal" such that we lose site of the teachings that actually advance His kingdom and righteousness. But when fatalism manifests itself so openly, I don't think it should be ignored. Indeed, God is awesome, almighty, unaccounted for, dreadful, unfathomable, all-knowing, the reason for all (not to be taken in a fatalistic sense); but did not even the pagans know such things? Does He not want us above all to look to His righteousness, mercy, truth, judgement, and holiness - to perceive that image in which we were made, and Christ Who displayed it wholly unto us? Does He not communicate His mind to those who are faithful - though it be in that which is little? If love is what many esteem so highly, then cannot it be at least left in its entire form - mutual, and not one-sided? Must so-called sovereignty trump all - so as to look at everything through its lens?

Anyways, I hope you don't take any of this offensively. This is not directed at you but the idea that seems to be alive in many, though often hiding in its full form. I figure that things that are right, when challenged, only get stronger; hence why I expect mine sayings to get challenged likewise, too see if there is anything unsound in them.

Have a nice night.

God Bless.

 

[Dima 26]

Have a nice night.

God Bless.

You too; and God bless.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In context of the gospel, it is widely believed that sin (from the perspective of an increase of rebellion towards God) was not, and still not, a hindrance to faith - once someone is presented with the gospel itself; although what I'm alluding to primarily concerns the time when Christ Himself was ministering the truth. Now while I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong (or right), how do you understand this in light of what Jesus told Nicodemus:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

If Christ is that light that came into the world (which He is), it is illustrating rather candidly that the world's inability to believe in Him is because of their evil deeds, while also implying right after that those who believe do so because they come to the light (as something that illuminates the works of man - something that Christ surely did) out of the confidence that they practice the truth, and want full assurance that their works are approved of God. How do you reconcile this with statements such as: there is none righteous, there is none that seeks after God, and all their righteousness is as filthy rags? Who are those who practice the truth and by consequence of doing so come to Christ?

Jesus as the light has exposed that we are sinful and evil--and we reject Him, and despise the light because as long as we are in the dark we don't have to face the reality that we are doing evil things. We can, in our hapless ignorance, think we are doing just fine. But once light shines into the places of shadow, it shows just how grotesque and ugly we are and what we do is.

Jesus doesn't reveal that there is any good in what we do; just the opposite: our works are wicked, and no one--not even one of us--is righteous; we are all unrighteous, wicked, sinful, and hostile toward God. For the light the Lord shines is the light of God's Law, for He shows us what is holy and right, for He is Himself these things: but we are not. We are sinful and filled with death and shame. For He says, "You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say, do not retaliate against an evil person, if you are struck on the one cheek, turn and offer the other cheek as well." In this we not only discover that we have failed at the commandment, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" for rather than seeking just restoration when wronged, we go out of our way to inflict worse harm than we ourselves received; but even more the true Light of the World, He says, "do not retaliate at all", and He shows us what true justice looks like, in the love He extends to sinners, even those who dealt with Him in the most heinous of ways; the Sanhedrin which was intended to be a court of justice, became a corrupt institution that gave Him a mockery of a trial, and then handed Him over to the wicked and evil powers of Rome, over to Pontius Pilate, for Pilate would never give any Jew a fair trial, Pilate was a blood-thirsty monster who sought only his own ambition. And so the Son of God was beaten, tortured, and sent to die alone on a cross; and yet He beheld His antagonists and declared to Heaven, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Behold the Son of God who over sinners weeps, and who has compassion on the most wicked of men--He bears shame that we deserve, for we have acted shameful. We are sinners deserving of death and hell; but the Son of God takes what we deserve and bears our death, and embraces all of that ugliness and evil--bearing it to the Grave, and then destroys the Grave itself, in order that we who nailed Him there should be called His own brothers, for His love for us is fiercer and stronger than death, and the Grave cannot win against Him.

As St. John Chrysostom has said, "Hell took in earth, but encountered Heaven" "and so it was destroyed".

Without grace to come in and make us brand new people, we remain hopelessly lost in the darkness, under the delusion that we are just fine, and that, and we remain active in our collaboration with death and the devil toward our own destruction. We are, apart from God's grace, not merely passively complicit with our destruction and the ongoing suffering of the world; but are actively collaborating. with that destruction.

That's why we don't need merely a nice suggestion to do better; we need to be confronted with our own ugliness, and in order that we don't utterly despair, we need Good News that can change us from the inside-out; it will do us no good to clean only the outside of the cup or apply bleach to the outside of a sarcophagus; we need the inside of the cup cleaned, the dead bones inside the sarcophagus need to be restored to life. We need life, forgiveness, healing, resurrection--beginning now through faith, and ultimately in the resurrection of the body on the Last Day. We can't do this, not our will or power, but the grace of God alone; for in Christ alone is righteousness, and we who have no righteousness of our own by grace, receive that righteousness which is Christ's. For we, who were dead in our trespasses and sins, have been raised up together with Christ, to abide in Him, and inherit with Him all that is His; so that we are no longer strangers and enemies of God, but God's own children. And the Holy Spirit, who comes to dwell in us, means we are God's children, for we have received Sonship from the Only-begotten Son of God, by which we can now say "Abba! Father!"

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus as the light has exposed that we are sinful and evil--and we reject Him, and despise the light because as long as we are in the dark we don't have to face the reality that we are doing evil things. We can, in our hapless ignorance, think we are doing just fine. But once light shines into the places of shadow, it shows just how grotesque and ugly we are and what we do is.

Jesus doesn't reveal that there is any good in what we do; just the opposite: our works are wicked, and no one--not even one of us--is righteous; we are all unrighteous, wicked, sinful, and hostile toward God. For the light the Lord shines is the light of God's Law, for He shows us what is holy and right, for He is Himself these things: but we are not. We are sinful and filled with death and shame. For He says, "You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say, do not retaliate against an evil person, if you are struck on the one cheek, turn and offer the other cheek as well." In this we not only discover that we have failed at the commandment, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" for rather than seeking just restoration when wronged, we go out of our way to inflict worse harm than we ourselves received; but even more the true Light of the World, He says, "do not retaliate at all", and He shows us what true justice looks like, in the love He extends to sinners, even those who dealt with Him in the most heinous of ways; the Sanhedrin which was intended to be a court of justice, became a corrupt institution that gave Him a mockery of a trial, and then handed Him over to the wicked and evil powers of Rome, over to Pontius Pilate, for Pilate would never give any Jew a fair trial, Pilate was a blood-thirsty monster who sought only his own ambition. And so the Son of God was beaten, tortured, and sent to die alone on a cross; and yet He beheld His antagonists and declared to Heaven, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Behold the Son of God who over sinners weeps, and who has compassion on the most wicked of men--He bears shame that we deserve, for we have acted shameful. We are sinners deserving of death and hell; but the Son of God takes what we deserve and bears our death, and embraces all of that ugliness and evil--bearing it to the Grave, and then destroys the Grave itself, in order that we who nailed Him there should be called His own brothers, for His love for us is fiercer and stronger than death, and the Grave cannot win against Him.

As St. John Chrysostom has said, "Hell took in earth, but encountered Heaven" "and so it was destroyed".

Without grace to come in and make us brand new people, we remain hopelessly lost in the darkness, under the delusion that we are just fine, and that, and we remain active in our collaboration with death and the devil toward our own destruction. We are, apart from God's grace, not merely passively complicit with our destruction and the ongoing suffering of the world; but are actively collaborating. with that destruction.

That's why we don't need merely a nice suggestion to do better; we need to be confronted with our own ugliness, and in order that we don't utterly despair, we need Good News that can change us from the inside-out; it will do us no good to clean only the outside of the cup or apply bleach to the outside of a sarcophagus; we need the inside of the cup cleaned, the dead bones inside the sarcophagus need to be restored to life. We need life, forgiveness, healing, resurrection--beginning now through faith, and ultimately in the resurrection of the body on the Last Day. We can't do this, not our will or power, but the grace of God alone; for in Christ alone is righteousness, and we who have no righteousness of our own by grace, receive that righteousness which is Christ's. For we, who were dead in our trespasses and sins, have been raised up together with Christ, to abide in Him, and inherit with Him all that is His; so that we are no longer strangers and enemies of God, but God's own children. And the Holy Spirit, who comes to dwell in us, means we are God's children, for we have received Sonship from the Only-begotten Son of God, by which we can now say "Abba! Father!"

-CryptoLutheran

Another thing that can be hopeful in all of this, is how God works it all out, all our sinful and evil and wicked acts and deeds/thoughts/ways, all for always the best good for us every single time as well always regardless etc. Which is only a further testimony to His absolute goodness, etc. That He still always does that for us always with all of that, etc. Even though we are far, far away from being worthy of it, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Dima 26]

Jesus as the light has exposed that we are sinful and evil--and we reject Him, and despise the light because as long as we are in the dark we don't have to face the reality that we are doing evil things. We can, in our hapless ignorance, think we are doing just fine. But once light shines into the places of shadow, it shows just how grotesque and ugly we are and what we do is.

Jesus doesn't reveal that there is any good in what we do; just the opposite: our works are wicked, and no one--not even one of us--is righteous; we are all unrighteous, wicked, sinful, and hostile toward God. For the light the Lord shines is the light of God's Law, for He shows us what is holy and right, for He is Himself these things: but we are not. We are sinful and filled with death and shame. For He says, "You have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say, do not retaliate against an evil person, if you are struck on the one cheek, turn and offer the other cheek as well." In this we not only discover that we have failed at the commandment, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" for rather than seeking just restoration when wronged, we go out of our way to inflict worse harm than we ourselves received; but even more the true Light of the World, He says, "do not retaliate at all", and He shows us what true justice looks like, in the love He extends to sinners, even those who dealt with Him in the most heinous of ways; the Sanhedrin which was intended to be a court of justice, became a corrupt institution that gave Him a mockery of a trial, and then handed Him over to the wicked and evil powers of Rome, over to Pontius Pilate, for Pilate would never give any Jew a fair trial, Pilate was a blood-thirsty monster who sought only his own ambition. And so the Son of God was beaten, tortured, and sent to die alone on a cross; and yet He beheld His antagonists and declared to Heaven, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Behold the Son of God who over sinners weeps, and who has compassion on the most wicked of men--He bears shame that we deserve, for we have acted shameful. We are sinners deserving of death and hell; but the Son of God takes what we deserve and bears our death, and embraces all of that ugliness and evil--bearing it to the Grave, and then destroys the Grave itself, in order that we who nailed Him there should be called His own brothers, for His love for us is fiercer and stronger than death, and the Grave cannot win against Him.

As St. John Chrysostom has said, "Hell took in earth, but encountered Heaven" "and so it was destroyed".

Without grace to come in and make us brand new people, we remain hopelessly lost in the darkness, under the delusion that we are just fine, and that, and we remain active in our collaboration with death and the devil toward our own destruction. We are, apart from God's grace, not merely passively complicit with our destruction and the ongoing suffering of the world; but are actively collaborating. with that destruction.

That's why we don't need merely a nice suggestion to do better; we need to be confronted with our own ugliness, and in order that we don't utterly despair, we need Good News that can change us from the inside-out; it will do us no good to clean only the outside of the cup or apply bleach to the outside of a sarcophagus; we need the inside of the cup cleaned, the dead bones inside the sarcophagus need to be restored to life. We need life, forgiveness, healing, resurrection--beginning now through faith, and ultimately in the resurrection of the body on the Last Day. We can't do this, not our will or power, but the grace of God alone; for in Christ alone is righteousness, and we who have no righteousness of our own by grace, receive that righteousness which is Christ's. For we, who were dead in our trespasses and sins, have been raised up together with Christ, to abide in Him, and inherit with Him all that is His; so that we are no longer strangers and enemies of God, but God's own children. And the Holy Spirit, who comes to dwell in us, means we are God's children, for we have received Sonship from the Only-begotten Son of God, by which we can now say "Abba! Father!"

-CryptoLutheran

The history of the world is largely a story of apostacy towards the Creator. Man was created "upright"; though he knew not good and evil, this is largely because (I believe) there was no "evil" in His creation to serve as an antithesis. The Lord Himself was to bring man up in every good way in the pure and undefiled communion with Him. Note: wisdom did not exist on earth yet (besides as seen through the order of His creation), only in heaven. If God created the earth by wisdom, how was mankind supposed to subdue the earth and bear rule over creation without wisdom? Though I cannot tell what exactly the forbidden fruit was, I believe it signifies one way or another: a means by which they could get "wisdom" apart from God - such that they man be as gods (as they may think). Now this is conjecture, however, the main point of this is to show that man was made for good, and though he sinned, he might well choose the good. God did not forsake him - they were only banished from the garden of Eden. He still communicated with them and even instructed them. Thus, being found in the state of knowing good and evil, he is still called unto the good, and may perform it.

Now obviously, him choosing the good would not undue the fact that he inherited death; a sure testimony today that we are under sin (should blindness not permit some to see their sins) - since death came by sin. But this never meant we had to continue down in apostasy from God; hence why others (even if few) held to the Lord and walked with Him. Because they feared Him and held to Him, the Lord showed them favor (grace) - supplying them with the needed wisdom and strength to be faithful unto Him. This is not works salvation. He who thinks he's justified by his own works is the one who does not seek the righteousness of God, neither fears Him. He who fears Him and seeks His righteousness: why should it be thought that he shall not be supplied with grace by the merciful Lord versus him who neither seeks Him nor fears Him? If his works are enough for him, then he no longer needs God - he's his own god, and death shall follow him as a shadow.

But indeed, death also followed the righteous as a shadow, but contrary to the wicked, they were grieved by all the unrighteousness in the world and their own corruptions. Hence why they hoped in God's mercy. Abraham - the father of faith - deemed faithful to charge his house after him in the knowledge of the Lord - after his culminating work of faith in offering up Isaac, called the name of the place: The Lord Will Provide. This is no doubt The Lamb of God - Jesus Christ, and this is the faith of the righteous today - their Redeemer. We did not deserve this; He did this according to His love and mercy.

Surely now, He calls those who were not His people: His people - even the sons of the Living God. Thus, repentance and remission of sins is given unto all people - and not just His people. But His people ought to be the ones who are in fact: redeemed; so that others that are saved are joined to the righteous that are redeemed. His people were redeemed unto righteousness. Therefore, when they were completely turned backwards, the Lord scattered the power of their lawlessness so that He may bring forth a remnant refined in fire (affliction), since righteousness is the end. Thus, the gospel serves both the ungodly and the righteous: the former through restoration (repentance unto life) and the latter with redemption (from death and sin).

The law is indeed a light, but not the only source of light. Man knew good and evil before the law, but not sin. Sin is a certain "evil" that God declares is evil by His authority - so that man may be without excuse. Since God speaks it, all are liable under it. It is wholesome enough to convict all under sin, in a way to help man to declare the Lord righteous and so as not to exalt themselves over their brethren - made in the same image. Otherwise, man would continue to think themselves "righteous" and judge his brethren according to their own sinful standards. The law is limited in its effect against hypocrisy that hides under light and workers of iniquity who hide in the darkness, but the light of God in Christ exposes all things. Christ delivered us from the curse of the law. We walk after the spirit of the law by the Eternal Spirit that was before the law (in His faithful) and authored the law. Thus, the spirit is superior to the letter. The Spirit is Who gives understanding and life, as in all divine things. Jesus Christ the Son of God is the express Image of the Father's Person; hence why he who believes in Christ receives the fullness of the Spirit in a way that could not have been said of those before Him. As Lord of His House, He has every right to require the true and undefiled worship of God, and to refine His people. The Spirit of Truth shall enable us to perceive the culminating work of God in Christ unto the righteousness of God if we just let Him.

Love is the source, grace is the means, and righteousness the end, of the great salvation of God; and faith is our means by which we appropriate it.

Blessings