Darkness and light and man’s nature

[Hammster]

Because they love the Truth.

Why?

 

[Knee V]

Okay. Just so you know, soil doesn’t prepare itself.

I'm not the one who gave the Parable.

 

[fhansen]

Why?

IMO you just can't put the cart ahead of the horse. The question isn't really any different than the one that St Anselm answered, taking it as far as he could. To the question, "Why did Adam sin?", his answer, arguably more profound than it sounds at first glance, was, "Because he willed to sin."

 

[Tone]

I didn't say that either. A person who chooses to turn to God does so before he is saved. It is only AFTER you turn to God and repent that you become a child of God. So the initial choice is done against your nature.

Why keep adding to what I think and say?

"12 And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done. 13 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness. "

 

[Hammster]

I'm not the one who gave the Parable.

No, just the one who is misunderstanding it.

 

[Hammster]

IMO you just can't put the cart ahead of the horse. The question isn't really any different than the one that St Anselm answered, taking it as far as he could. To the question, "Why did Adam sin?", his answer, arguably more profound than it sounds at first glance, was, "Because he willed to sin."

Then you’ll have to conclude that some folks are just better than others.

 

[-Sasha-]

Why?

Why does man love at all? I think because we were created in the likeness of God, who is love. He is love, we, I think, are participants in love. Why do some love one thing, and others love a different thing? Because we were created also with that power of deciding to what, or to whom, our energies would be directed. Where our treasure is, there will be our heart. When we invest our time, our effort, our desire, our resources in a thing (or person, or ideal) we draw that thing into our heart while at the same time pouring our heart into it. For what is "treasure" if not what we strive most to obtain? And what is our love if not this drawing into and simultaneous outpouring from our heart? Yes, I believe that God allows us to direct our energies, love included, to whatever we will. However, there is an incentive we can discover for directing our love towards Him rather than other things, is there not? What love fills us rather than drains us? What love brings light into our soul rather than darkness? What love gives the satisfaction which we seek but cannot find from other sources? What is the pearl of great price, and why does man forsake all else when he finds it?

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say that either. A person who chooses to turn to God does so before he is saved. It is only AFTER you turn to God and repent that you become a child of God. So the initial choice is done against your nature.

Why keep adding to what I think and say?

What I meant was, that in your understanding, there are some folks who are better, wiser, smarter, more spiritual (whatever works), and those are the ones who will be saved.

 

[Hammster]

Why does man love at all? I think because we were created in the likeness of God, who is love. He is love, we, I think, are participants in love. Why do some love one thing, and others love a different thing? Because we were created also with that power of deciding to what, or to whom, our energies would be directed. Where our treasure is, there will be our heart. When we invest our time, our effort, our desire, our resources in a thing (or person, or ideal) we draw that thing into our heart while at the same time pouring our heart into it. For what is "treasure" if not what we strive most to obtain? And what is our love if not this drawing into and simultaneous outpouring from our heart? Yes, I believe that God allows us to direct our energies, love included, to whatever we will. However, there is an incentive we can discover for directing our love towards Him rather than other things, is there not? What love fills us rather than drains us? What love brings light into our soul rather than darkness? What love gives the satisfaction which we seek but cannot find from other sources? What is the pearl of great price, and why does man forsake all else when he finds it?

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3

10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." - Romans 3:10-18

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. - Romans 5:10

Unrighteousness enemies of God who are children of wrath who do not seek God. That’s how we are described. Something must change in us to get us to believe in Christ.

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezekiel 36:25-27

 

[Knee V]

No, just the one who is misunderstanding it.

I know what you want, though. You want a family of passages which, together, teach that everyone sins because it is our fundamental nature to sin in every activity we undertake and therefore always reject the gospel, while some believe because God sovereignty changes their nature to one which inclines toward God and then, by virtue of having their nature changed, choose to believe in Christ in keeping with their nature ensuring that man gets no credit and that God gets all credit.

Such passages don't exist.

 

[Knee V]

Some believe because some believe, and some don't because some don't. Better and worse, who gets credit, etc, are premises whose validity perhaps ought to be reconsidered.

 

[Hammster]

I know what you want, though. You want a family of passages which, together, teach that everyone sins because it is our fundamental nature to sin in every activity we undertake and therefore always reject the gospel, while some believe because God sovereignty changes their nature to one which inclines toward God and then, by virtue of having their nature changed, choose to believe in Christ in keeping with their nature ensuring that man gets no credit and that God gets all credit.

Such passages don't exist.

They are largely ignored, is what you should be saying.

 

[Ken Rank]

What causes a person to make a choice against their nature? If behavior is the product of the person's nature, then the choice would follow the nature.

I believe I can make the case that God will prick the heart at some point of ALL of those alive. Some respond, some don't. We did... but early in my walk when I was trying to figure this out, I met many people who claimed to know God but who couldn't, or wouldn't, pull themselves away from whatever sin they found themselves. I don't know why that is, I don't think God plays favorites, and I believe Yeshua died for ALL PEOPLE, hence John 3:16 and others like it. Light is in the world... and we will all see it at some point... on the TV, radio, in a friend, from a friend, on a billboard, somewhere.... and we are left with a choice.

Our choice isn't about intelligence or being smarter or more spiritual... it simply has to do with making a heart connection with God. Those that do, become His... those that don't, don't.

 

[Ken Rank]

What I meant was, that in your understanding, there are some folks who are better, wiser, smarter, more spiritual (whatever works), and those are the ones who will be saved.

No Hammy, that is not my belief or understanding. Look at my post above this one, #53. Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

I believe I can make the case that God will prick the heart at some point of ALL of those alive.

Please do so.

 

[Hammster]

No Hammy, that is not my belief or understanding. Look at my post above this one, #53. Thanks.

It’s still comes down to some difference in people. There must be something better in one person than another, however small.

 

[Ken Rank]

It’s still comes down to some difference in people. There must be something better in one person than another, however small.

I don't agree with that. Nobody is better than others in the sight of God.Regarding God pricking the hearts or otherwise making the light known to all...

I can share some verses that say the light came into the world so all within it would be saved (John 3:17 as one example) but I think I would rather share a story that not only depicts people going against their nature, it depicts an aspect to an event most of us miss when reading.

Go back to Egypt, to the day of the final plague. Who died? The firstborn of ALL save for Israel. The first born animal, the firstborn of every Egyptian family, and it says it plainly... the firstborn of the foreigner living in Egypt. When Israel came out of Egypt, many foreigners came with them. They would ultimately assimilate into the tribes they traveled with. Native Israel was to treat those foreigners as if native born. And the Torah was given not just to Israel, but to the foreigner with them as well. Those foreigners became a part of Israel.... they were the first to be grafted in. But my point... they had just lost their firstborn sons and yet they STILL went against their cultural nature (pagan nature) AND what had to be some inclination to at least be awfully mad at the God who just took their sons. They still saw a better way in Him, they still saw light (and life) in Him.

Light has entered this world and all will, at some point in their life, see it and/or hear it. Responding to it has nothing to do with intelligence, instead, it has everything to do with one's heart condition.

 

[Hammster]

I don't agree with that. Nobody is better than others in the sight of God.Regarding God pricking the hearts or otherwise making the light known to all...

I can share some verses that say the light came into the world so all within it would be saved (John 3:17 as one example) but I think I would rather share a story that not only depicts people going against their nature, it depicts an aspect to an event most of us miss when reading.

Go back to Egypt, to the day of the final plague. Who died? The firstborn of ALL save for Israel. The first born animal, the firstborn of every Egyptian family, and it says it plainly... the firstborn of the foreigner living in Egypt. When Israel came out of Egypt, many foreigners came with them. They would ultimately assimilate into the tribes they traveled with. Native Israel was to treat those foreigners as if native born. And the Torah was given not just to Israel, but to the foreigner with them as well. Those foreigners became a part of Israel.... they were the first to be grafted in. But my point... they had just lost their firstborn sons and yet they STILL went against their cultural nature (pagan nature) AND what had to be some inclination to at least be awfully mad at the God who just took their sons. They still saw a better way in Him, they still saw light (and life) in Him.

Light has entered this world and all will, at some point in their life, see it and/or hear it. Responding to it has nothing to do with intelligence, instead, it has everything to do with one's heart condition.

It’s clear in John why some reject it. And why some don’t. Knee-V mentioned the parable of the sower. I think that gives us a great explanation as to why some believe and others don’t.

 

[Ken Rank]

Some believe because some believe, and some don't because some don't. Better and worse, who gets credit, etc, are premises whose validity perhaps ought to be reconsidered.

@Hammster if you're referring to this post, it's basically all I've said. At some point we all hear about Jesus... some will respond and some don't. It isn't about intelligence, it just is what it is.

 

[Hammster]

@Hammster if you're referring to this post, it's basically all I've said. At some point we all hear about Jesus... some will respond and some don't. It isn't about intelligence, it just is what it is.

I know you have. You just cannot explain why.