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Featured Darkness and light and man’s nature

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    For discussion

    19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
    20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. - John 3:19-20

    It would appear from these verses that man’s nature bent is away from God.

    Agree or disagree?
     
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  2. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree but I have another way to show this. When Adam was in the garden, it was "as if" he was plugged into God. God was Adam's source for all things, including any knowledge. While in this state, Adam was in the light, connected to the light. But when he sinned, it was "as if" he unplugged and at that time was not directly connected to the light and now had to begin deciding on his own between what was good and what wasn't. We exist in the unplugged state yet when we come in faith to messiah we, in a sense, plug back in. We are not plugged in as Adam was... but one day we will be. That is the restoration we all await.
     
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  3. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Wouldn’t it be against man’s nature to “plug back in”?
     
  4. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of His Creation! Supporter

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    While we've learned better many of us, the tendency of people is to think they are good. Not simply a mix, but actually good --

    The person tends to think, "I'm better than others, and pretty good actually." (or such)

    But that's not realistic at all.

    It's because of this tendency to think this Christ corrects us with

    Mark 7:21 For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

    and even this (to someone who would not yet realize Whom he was addressing) --

    Mark 10:18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus replied. "No one is good except God alone.

    So, we are not 'good', but something else, and that is at least a mix, in that we do want to love and be loved (usually people do), even when we tend to also want evil things like revenge, lusts, and all the rest.

    So, it's both -- both a desire to love, and a tendency to hate.

    But the helpful thing to say to us, to help us get real is:
    Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander.

    because otherwise we don't even realize the actual, and may fool ourselves and think we don't even need to confess/repent/and fall on His mercy. We may not realize we need a redeemer, if we can't even be realistic about ourselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  5. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, that's kind of the NT message right? Christ did what he did and through his work we at least partially plug back in. But it us his work, not ours, that does this.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    If that’s the case, then the passage in question makes no sense.
     
  7. AppleGold

    AppleGold New Member

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    19. Human nature is usually self-fish, even if you are doing good deeds. Do it in the name of God and this won't apply.
    20. There are a few people that do wicked deeds in brad daylight, but they are far and few between. They are usually Devil worshippers, and not even of all these people do wicked deeds in brad daylight. But, in history there were a group of assassins that would assassinate a King or some other target that they were told to kill. Some did it stealthily, others did it openly. But everyone in this group all had one thing in common. They all stood around after the kill defenseless waiting to be killed. They would not kill the guards or anyone not their target cause they were just doing their job. The assassins were always given one target, maybe in some rare cases two.
     
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  8. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think it makes sense. We were in light... we left and fell into darkness. Light entered the world, those who love and desire darkness remain in it... and those that have a heart for God He draws unto Himself and they become children of light awaiting the day of perfection. It is his work, though. He is the light that entered the world and he is who draws us to Him.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Then you will have to say that some folks, by nature, have a heart for God.

    I don’t think that is scriptural.
     
  10. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is your deal today? Did I say that? No... you added that to my words. Light entered the world and at some point we all have a choice between the love of this world and God. Many, most (?) seem to prefer the world (darkness) but those that prefer God become children of light. We have the choice... light or dark...blessing or cursing... life or death.
     
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  11. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You are the one that said some have a heart for God. And you just repeated it. Your choices are dependent upon your nature.
     
  12. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sigh...

    We ALL have a nature that is separated from God. But God mercifully, has allowed light to enter the world. First by promise (starting in Gen. 3:14 but then through the many prophets) and then by a physical manifestation (son of God). So despite being in a state that is unplugged (so to speak) there has always been a balance in that... the world has what it has to offer, and the Word of God has what it has to offer. Some choose light, some remain in darkness. I don't believe people were created to remain separate... I believe God so loved ALL the world that He sent His son.

    So no... I didn't repeat what you didn't catch the first time. You're just not hearing me. So, if that is where we still are after the above clarification... I will just turn off my computer and go about my day. :)

    Blessings.
    Ken
     
  13. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    Maybe it's in the darkness where we cling desperately and resolutely to our shields and swords, until the light shines brightly upon us, and we can clearly see that our weapons were but a passing illusion...and then, for the first time, our wills are free to choose.
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay. So people who are saved just make better choices. Got it.

    It’s not biblical, but I least I understand where you are coming from.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Are you saying that the light changes our nature?
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Agree. I mean the NT epistles are witness to this as well as in Romans 1 and Ephesians 2

    Even the post apostolic age had this understanding:

    As long then as the former time endured, He permitted us to be borne along by unruly impulses, being drawn away by the desire of pleasure and various lusts. This was not that He at all delighted in our sins, but that He simply endured them; nor that He approved the time of working iniquity which then was, but that He sought to form a mind conscious of righteousness, so that being convinced in that time of our unworthiness of attaining life through our own works, it should now, through the kindness of God, be vouchsafed to us; and having made it manifest that in ourselves we were unable to enter into the kingdom of God, we might through the power of God be made able. But when our wickedness had reached its height, and it had been clearly shown that its reward, punishment and death, was impending over us; and when the time had come which God had before appointed for manifesting His own kindness and power, how the one love of God, through exceeding regard for men, did not regard us with hatred, nor thrust us away, nor remember our iniquity against us, but showed great long-suffering, and bore with us, He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for those who are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! That the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors! Having therefore convinced us in the former time that our nature was unable to attain to life, and having now revealed the Saviour who is able to save even those things which it was [formerly] impossible to save, by both these facts He desired to lead us to trust in His kindness, to esteem Him our Nourisher, Father, Teacher, Counsellor, Healer, our Wisdom, Light, Honour, Glory, Power, and Life, so that we should not be anxious concerning clothing and food.

    (From The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus Chapter 9. Why the Son was sent so late)

    CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to Diognetus (Mathetes)
     
  17. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    The light shows that our weapons are, but, the illusion of freewill...we see that our wills are captive...as more is revealed...freedom is gained.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Narrow-minded Bible-thumper Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    What is the condition of our nature? Scripture uses contrasts like dead/alive, sheep/goats, etc.

    Where is man, in your view, before and after the light shines on us?
     
  19. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Romans 3:10-12 ESV
    As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

    Ecclesiastes
    Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

    Romans 3:23
    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Romans 3:12
    All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
     
  20. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    Adam's leaf coverings, hiding from God's presence, and avoiding admission of guilt are clear signs that Adam was suffering something far worse than mere detachment from God.
     
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