Darkness and light and man’s nature

[fhansen]

Huh?

You just avoided the question in my post #96.

 

[Hammster]

You just avoided the question in my post #96.

I didn’t avoid it. I thought I addressed it. Perhaps I misunderstood it.

 

[Knee V]

Mark 7 certainly supports the fact that we are sinful. His specific point in this instance is that true uncleanness is about our hearts, not about dirt on our skin. It does not say anything what human nature fundamentally is.

Genesis 6:12 is half of a point, and this mistake is made with numerous passages. What is being missed by you and others is that it says that everyone was only wicked all the time... except the ones who weren't. Two groups are being contrasted: the wicked and the righteous. The wicked were many and the righteous were few, but it is still not making a universal and absolute statement about what it means for us to be human or about what human nature is.

If the premise were true that a person is born with one kind of human nature, and then receives another kind of human nature when sovreignly regenerated by God, then Romans 7:23 doesn't deal with that. In that premise, Paul is someone who is already regenerate and no longer has that same human nature which makes it impossible not to sin, and that verse could not be about that unregenerate nature. It deals with the struggle of a Christian, and it comes closer to touching this subject than some other passages, but it still says nothing a person having one kind of human nature and then receiving a new kind of human nature.

Galatians 5:17 is about flesh vs spirit in the life of a Christian, and the points about Romans 7:23 are essentially the same here. That there is a struggle in the life of a Christian to continue turning away from the lusts of the flesh does not mean that a person has one kind of human nature and then receives a new kind of human nature.

Jeremiah 17:9 says nothing of human nature. It affirms that we are sinful. The point being made there is not about the heart as much as about God's ability to discern and judge. The heart is the more deceitful than anything else and desperately wicked [none of that says or implies that it has some kind of "sin nature"; that is reading into the text what we want to see], and yet even so, God sees through it to judge.

None of those passages - either individually or collectively - teach that we are born with one kind of nature and then receive a new kind of nature.

The Holy Bible makes it plain and clear, in many passages in the OT and NT.

Here are just a few that come to mind but there are many many more.

Mark 7:21 Genesis 6:12 Romans 7:23 Galatians 5:17 Jeremiah 17:9

We either believe Gods Word as we have it in Holy Scripture or we reject it at our own peril.

 

[Tone]

Romans 8:18-25
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

This speaks of an incorrupt nature and a corrupt nature. My question is; do we groan within ourselves prior to receiving the Spirit? Does a human being with a corrupt nature have hope?

I lean towards the idea that before the light is shined upon us, we are in darkness...in our corrupt nature and it is the Light Who may kindle hope in that darkness, but conditions have to be just right (oxygen, fuel, heat). When a fire is sparked, and not quenched, it starts off very slowly, and we know that those flames develop a light of their own, in hope...for full redemption. So we let our lights burn bright with the hope that, one day, we will attain to the brightness of that True Light, our source and our end.

But, if the Light doesn't shine on one who is in darkness, how will hope be kindled, and how is that corrupt nature comparable to ours, who have the Spirit (incorruptible seed) and, as the passage further says, "The Messiah has died and he is risen, and he is at the right hand of God and he prays for us."? (Romans 8:34).


Romans 8:30
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."


Does this make us haughty...that we have been shined upon, and hope is kindled, and we are preserved and our light is tended by Him?

We should be filled with humility...and even fear, since we have been given a great trust. We are to be the little flames that spread into the darkness, where He would shine!

*Lest our light be snuffed out...

**

 

[Dan1988]

Mark 7 certainly supports the fact that we are sinful. His specific point in this instance is that true uncleanness is about our hearts, not about dirt on our skin. It does not say anything what human nature fundamentally is.

Genesis 6:12 is half of a point, and this mistake is made with numerous passages. What is being missed by you and others is that it says that everyone was only wicked all the time... except the ones who weren't. Two groups are being contrasted: the wicked and the righteous. The wicked were many and the righteous were few, but it is still not making a universal and absolute statement about what it means for us to be human or about what human nature is.

If the premise were true that a person is born with one kind of human nature, and then receives another kind of human nature when sovreignly regenerated by God, then Romans 7:23 doesn't deal with that. In that premise, Paul is someone who is already regenerate and no longer has that same human nature which makes it impossible not to sin, and that verse could not be about that unregenerate nature. It deals with the struggle of a Christian, and it comes closer to touching this subject than some other passages, but it still says nothing a person having one kind of human nature and then receiving a new kind of human nature.

Galatians 5:17 is about flesh vs spirit in the life of a Christian, and the points about Romans 7:23 are essentially the same here. That there is a struggle in the life of a Christian to continue turning away from the lusts of the flesh does not mean that a person has one kind of human nature and then receives a new kind of human nature.

Jeremiah 17:9 says nothing of human nature. It affirms that we are sinful. The point being made there is not about the heart as much as about God's ability to discern and judge. The heart is the more deceitful than anything else and desperately wicked [none of that says or implies that it has some kind of "sin nature"; that is reading into the text what we want to see], and yet even so, God sees through it to judge.

None of those passages - either individually or collectively - teach that we are born with one kind of nature and then receive a new kind of nature.

There are 40,000 different Christian denominations, they all interpret the scriptures in a way that suits them. So people can make the scriptures say whatever they want them to say, but there is only one truth and everyone thinks they know it.

The Bible doesn't always use the same terms that we use in the 21st century. I never stated that we receive a different human nature, our new nature is not human. It comes from God and it's a Christ like nature.

There's no way of denying the fact that we were all born with a totally depraved sin nature. Noah and his family were also born with a sin nature, but God regenerated them before he destroyed the rest of humanity.

The scriptures leave no room for anyone to claim that they contributed to their salvation in any way. All we contributed was our total depravity and wickedness, while we were dead in our sins and trespasses. God has to do everything for us as we all hate Him by nature and we would never repent, unless he draws us to Himself first.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Romans 3:12
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins


Ecclesiastes 7:20 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Romans 8:7-8
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Psalm 14:3
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Romans 9:18-24
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Romans 3:9-19
For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave.

Titus 3:3
For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.

Colossians 1:21
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,



Romans 3:10
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;



1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.


Romans 5:12-19
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.


Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Romans 8:1-39
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.


1 Kings 8:46
“If they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin

John 3:19
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.