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Featured Conditional salvation??

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dorothy Mae, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I suppose so but reading the Lord’s prayer and taking it seriously would likely do more. No counsel is better than Jesus and he clearly said we need to forgive others who do us wrong. The answer to serious grudges and minor grudges is the same...forgive. There will be no freedom til one does.
     
  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yeah, but as I was telling Dave, we take a very realistic view of how difficult forgiveness often is in the real world. People that have been the victims of crimes are justifiably angry about that, and it would be wrong to condemn them for their anger merely because it isn't seen as pious.
     
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Notice Luke 6:36-37 is a similar passage. I believe forgiving others is a necessity for receiving salvation. It has to do with loving others, having compassion and mercy.

    “Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.”
    ‭‭LUKE‬ ‭6:36-37‬ ‭NASB‬‬
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    The passage the OP is quoting is from Matthew 6.

    “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”
    ‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬
     
  5. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Jesus gives the same quote in John 15:10-14 right after warning His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and abiding in Him.

    “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
    ‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:10-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬
     
  6. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Doesn’t that imply that we have no choice in whether or not we will forgive someone? It would mean we are incapable of forgiving others unless God has forgiven us and if God has forgiven us we are incapable of not forgiving others. So then Jesus’ statement quoted in the OP would be useless because according to your post we are incapable of choosing whether or not to forgive others. So why would Jesus tell us to forgive others if we are incapable of choosing either way?
     
  7. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I disagree. At the end of the day salvation is all about love; that's the target or end-goal of faith in fact; that's how faith justifies, because love is the epitome of justice for man. And this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. The New Covenant is about change-towards the true righteousness or justice man was made for, towards the very image of God, in fact. And love acts, by its nature, which is why the criteria for judgment cited in Matt 25:31-46, for example, makes so much sense. In fact, a classic church teaching I'm familiar with quotes a 16th century believer who would sum it up it this way:
    "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

    Love forgives, love obeys, love works for the good of others. And love is the product of communion with God, 'Apart from Whom we can do nothing', John 15:5. And faith establishes this communion, a partnership that was shattered at the Fall. Another believer, this time a 3rd or 4th century one named Basil of Cesaera, had the following to say:
    "If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
     
  8. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Well God will condemn them for not forgiving. Is God then doing wrong?

    No one has ever been more wronged than Jesus and he forgave.
     
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  9. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Could very well be a valid point. It’s why I ask the question.
     
  10. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    What is quite amazing is that total unbelievers are yet capable of and have forgiven those who wronged them. And they have NONE of the Holy Spirit. I know some. They were horribly wronged by people and yet forgive them even if they don’t use the same words. Hmmmm
     
  11. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Since Jesus said God will not forgive us if we don't forgive others, we can implicitly assume it's sin (Matthew 18:35). Conversely, if we do forgive others, God will forgive us (Matthew 6:14). Furthermore according to Hebrews 12:14-15, if we harbor unforgiveness and choose not to make peace with others, a root of bitterness my grow in our lives, bring defilement. Defilement is the result of sin. Ephesians 4:32 commands us to forgive one another. Breaking God's commandment is sin.
     
  12. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    IOW, there’s no scripture and we only have implicit assumptions.
    That’s an assumption. Is there a scripture that says this? Sounds like do it yourself salvation.
    Jesus gave a new commandment, to love one another. Just that one. Forgive one another is not a commandment. Commandments are few and far between. When we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others, there’s not a command involved.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  13. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I would think forgiveness is a natural offspring of love though, no?
     
  14. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Well, it sounds as if it ought to be, but it’s not. If it were, Jesus wouldn’t have needed to warn us how vital it is. Or one can say that the love of self is stronger at that point than the love of others. Either way, forgiving others is hard at times. It is best if we admit this rather than try to paint lofty images of how easy it ought to be.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    [/QUOTE]

    What about what I posted that said if you condemn you will be condemned if you forgive you will be forgiven. It seems to imply a contrast indicating that if you don’t forgive then you are condemning.
     
  16. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Frankly speaking, I rather people turn away from evil regardless of the reason. We’d all be safer and happier.
    I disagree. I go to work every day because I get paid to do so and my boss doesn’t think I’m enticed by those wages. And I’m not a mercenary. I’m not the only one either.
    True, but i’d settle for everyone doing moral good for whatever reason works. I’m pretty sure others feel this way too. I’m pretty practical.
     
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I see. But I don't think the command to love is particularly easy fulfill to begin with either. And it naturally carries with it certain demands on how we treat others-the nature and outworkings of love are pretty well described in 1 Cor 13, for example.
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    That’s not a command, it’s a warning. There’s a difference.
     
  19. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]
    Really?? In Eph 4:32, the word "be" is ginesthe | γίνεσθε which is rendered in the present tense, imperative mood. Imperative in the Greek denotes a COMMMAND and as such is not optional. I suggest you study the Greek language since you appear to be oblivious of it.
     
  20. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Nah. The generation who lived in the first century knew it better then you ever will and they didn’t all understand the scripture. God hides information from some kinds of people and reveals it to
    others and knowing Greek doesn’t help at all.

    I could point you to Greek scholars who know nothing worth talking about when it comes to God himself. Knowing Greek isn’t knowing God.
     
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