Conditional salvation??

[Natsumi Lam]

I would think forgiveness is a natural offspring of love though, no?

Not necessarily. I have forgiving my exinlaws and i cant stand them.

 

[fhansen]

Frankly speaking, I rather people turn away from evil regardless of the reason. We’d all be safer and happier.
I disagree. I go to work every day because I get paid to do so and my boss doesn’t think I’m enticed by those wages. And I’m not a mercenary. I’m not the only one either. True, but i’d settle for everyone doing moral good for whatever reason works. I’m pretty sure others feel this way too. I’m pretty practical.

The real point of the Christian message is that it doesn't really work. The Old Covenant fails to justify man-and keep us on the even moral keel that it proposes- because man fails to love. This is why it can be said that love fulfills the law. This is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. And this is why Paul lifted love to the highest level, above faith and hope, in 1 Cor.

 

[Oldmantook]

Nah. The generation who lived in the first century knew it better then you ever will and they didn’t all understand the scripture. God hides information from sine kinds of people and reveals it to
others and knowing Greek doesn’t help at all.

I could point you to Greek scholars who know nothing worth talking about when it comes to God himself. Knowing Greek isn’t knowing God.

Not knowing Greek and claiming that your belief is supported by the scriptures is sheer ignorance and folly; but nonetheless certainly your prerogative.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not necessarily. I have forgiving my exinlaws and i cant stand them.

I laughed out loud, I’ve done the same to mine, but not ex.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not knowing Greek and claiming that your belief is supported by the scriptures is sheer ignorance and folly; but nonetheless certainly your prerogative.

Actually I didn’t say that, you’re ignorant of my post.

But in any case, some very deep thinkers who understood the scriptures well didn’t know Greek. Those who know Greek don’t seem to understand them better, but more often then not look down on those who don’t know Greek. These are exactly the kind of people God hides understanding from, the proud.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The real point of the Christian message is that it doesn't really work. The Old Covenant fails to justify man-and keep us on the even moral keel that it proposes- because man fails to love. This is why it can be said that love fulfills the law. This is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. And this is why Paul lifted love to the highest level, above faith and hope, in 1 Cor.

The Christian message works beautifully. Why do you think it doesn’t?

 

[fhansen]

Not necessarily. I have forgiving my exinlaws and i cant stand them.

Ok LOL. But love still compels the effort IMO-even for our enemies, even for those we can't stand. That's what makes it run so counter to our's and the world's natural inclinations, what makes it such a game changer in improving our world, healing, making peace, etc

 

[fhansen]

The Christian message works beautifully. Why do you think it doesn’t?

What makes you think I disagree-or said otherwise?
Ok, I re-read my post. Let me add to it:

The real point of the Christian message is that it doesn't really work, "it" being man obeying consistently out of fear or in an attempt to earn heaven, or in the attempt to make ourselves worthy in any case. Love is what makes a person just, and only God can produce that kind of love in us. So man's first necessity is in becoming reconciled with God, not in merely trying to obey His commandments. With this restored relationship of communion between man and God, God begins a work in man and man can begin to love as the just order of things demands for him, and as is necessary in order to have peace and fellowship with God, himself, and his neighbor.

 

[Oldmantook]

Actually I didn’t say that, you’re ignorant of my post.

But in any case, some very deep thinkers who understood the scriptures well didn’t know Greek. Those who know Greek don’t seem to understand them better, but more often then not look down on those who don’t know Greek. These are exactly the kind of people God hides understanding from, the proud.

Deep thinkers? Just who are these "deep thinkers?" Don't you think God knew that the NT would be translated into the Greek? Don't you think a knowledge of the Greek is helpful so that we know what he commands and what he forbids? To ignore the command to forgive is to do so at your own peril - your choice.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

A good example of why it is important to know Greek is to study the word possession.

In English it means ownership.

In Greek it means to be inhabited by.

This is an important distinction. It is very important for a deliverance minister as well.

Also Heal, Healing, Healed has different meanings in the Greek.

Many times it indicates physical healing, spiritual healing and a combo.

This is very important for those in healing and deliverance.

Greek and Hebrew studies are invaluable!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jesus gives the same quote in John 15:10-14 right after warning His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and abiding in Him.

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:10-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The commandments of Jesus surpass the scope of the commandments of Moses nailed to the cross. Judge for yourself where the greater reward lies and do so likewise.

 

[bling]

Doesn’t that imply that we have no choice in whether or not we will forgive someone? It would mean we are incapable of forgiving others unless God has forgiven us and if God has forgiven us we are incapable of not forgiving others. So then Jesus’ statement quoted in the OP would be useless because according to your post we are incapable of choosing whether or not to forgive others. So why would Jesus tell us to forgive others if we are incapable of choosing either way?

I must not be explaining very well.
In order to initially obtain Godly type Love you first have to humbly accept God's Love in the form of forgiveness (Luke 7).
We are talking only about unconditional undeserving and unrewarding type "forgiveness" (unrewarding in the fact you are not getting anything more from doing it and you are not doing it to get anything [you already have it]).
Without this Love there is not reason to unconditionally extend this forgiveness to a totally undeserving person.
The Love comes to you automatically with your humble acceptance of God's forgiveness, but you still have free will and like the servant who buried his master's bag of money away and did not use it to increase it, we can of our own free will bury God's gift of Love away and not use it to forgive others.

 

[bling]

I am not sure that People do not realize that they have been fully forgiven as he reason they do not forgive. I think that we have the tendency to prefer to accuse those who sin against us of evil and hold that just judgement as it gives a certain pleasure. Forgiving is not pleasant at all.

Christ going to the cross was not "pleasant" for Him, but it showed us how bad our sins are and How great His Love is for us.
You always have free will and the perceived pleasures of sin for a season is a likely alternative.
Godly type Love is not a knee jerk reaction it is not logical and must be a free will choice on your part.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What makes you think I disagree-or said otherwise?
Ok, I re-read my post. Let me add to it:

The real point of the Christian message is that it doesn't really work, "it" being man obeying consistently out of fear or in an attempt to earn heaven, or in the attempt to make ourselves worthy in any case.

But that’s not the Christian message. We don’t obey for any of those reasons as a follower of Christ.

Love is what makes a person just, and only God can produce that kind of love in us. So man's first necessity is in becoming reconciled with God, not in merely trying to obey His commandments. With this restored relationship of communion between man and God, God begins a work in man and man can begin to love as the just order of things demands for him, and as is necessary in order to have peace and fellowship with God, himself, and his neighbor.

Thats the Christian message.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Deep thinkers? Just who are these "deep thinkers?" Don't you think God knew that the NT would be translated into the Greek? Don't you think a knowledge of the Greek is helpful so that we know what he commands and what he forbids? To ignore the command to forgive is to do so at your own peril - your choice.

Uh, it was written in Greek. Did this make the Greeks more insightful believers?

I know it’s a comforting thought to assume knowing ancient Greek means one understands the written Word of God, but Jesus says if you keep (do) his teaching then you will know the truth, not if you learn a certain language.

The Muslims think the original language necessary to understand their book. The Christians think knowing God is necessary and that happens for those who obey Him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A good example of why it is important to know Greek is to study the word possession.

In English it means ownership.

In Greek it means to be inhabited by.

This is an important distinction. It is very important for a deliverance minister as well.

Also Heal, Healing, Healed has different meanings in the Greek.

Many times it indicates physical healing, spiritual healing and a combo.

This is very important for those in healing and deliverance.

Greek and Hebrew studies are invaluable!

Knowing God Himself and having God explain His word is a lot more valuable. And besides, the command form exists in English. It’s not lost in translation.

Jesus says the Father would dwell in those who love Him and keep (do) his teaching, not those who thoroughly understand Greek grammar rules. If one knows he ought to do something, God looks at it he does it, not if he knows what the Greek word meant.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Christ going to the cross was not "pleasant" for Him, but it showed us how bad our sins are and How great His Love is for us.
You always have free will and the perceived pleasures of sin for a season is a likely alternative.
Godly type Love is not a knee jerk reaction it is not logical and must be a free will choice on your part.

It’s all ok except the logical bit. Gods type love is completely logical. It is thoroughly rational. One only needs the correct understanding to start with.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Knowing God Himself and having God explain His word is a lot more valuable.

Jesus says the Father would dwell in those who love Him and keep (do) his teaching, not those who thoroughly understand Greek grammar rules. If one knows he ought to do something, God looks at it he does it, not if he knows what the Greek word meant.

It may be invaluable to have the Holy Spirit.

It is also valuable to know Greek.

With the knowledge at our fingertips why not learn Greek. It will not detract from learning but it will allow for deeper understanding.

It is extremely foolish to not add Greek to your toolbelt.

I provided two viable examples.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It may be invaluable to have the Holy Spirit.

It is also valuable to know Greek.

With the knowledge at our fingertips why not learn Greek. It will not detract from learning but it will allow for deeper understanding.

It is extremely foolish to not add Greek to your toolbelt.

Well I’ve read a bit of what those who consider themselves knowledgeable in Greek and it doesn’t seem to improve their character or understanding of the text in comparison with those who lived it out in real choices. They can tell you, perhaps, better what the author meant or didn’t mean, but unless they actually DO what the words say, real insight, as evidenced in their explanation, is missing. I think God “hides from the wise and intelligent and reveals Himself to babes.”

There are whole translations where the Greek expert slanted his words according to his personal theology against the actual meaning showing character plays a larger role than knowledge.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Uh, it was written in Greek. Did this make the Greeks more insightful believers?

I know it’s a comforting thought to assume knowing ancient Greek means one understands the written Word of God, but Jesus says if you keep (do) his teaching then you will know the truth, not if you learn a certain language.

The Muslims think the original language necessary to understand their book. The Christians think knowing God is necessary and that happens for those who obey Him.

The bible also says:

Hosea 4:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Well I’ve read a bit of what those who consider themselves knowledgeable in Greek and it doesn’t seem to improve their character or understanding of the text. They can tell you, perhaps, better what the author meant or didn’t mean, but unless they actually DO what the words say, real insight as evidenced in their explanation is missing.

There are whole translations where the Greek expert slanted his words according to his personal theology against the actual meaning showing character plays a larger role than knowledge.

How do you know it doesnt improve their understanding?

To understand something doesnt always correlate to change.

I provided two examples of how valuable the Greek is to healing and deliverance ministers.

English alone wont do in these scenarios unless the HS gives you the golden nugget. He also provides skilled people to write a Septuagent. Much like a doctor. You go to the doctor right?

Why not learn Greek? What will it make you lose?