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Featured Conditional salvation??

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dorothy Mae, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.

    What say you?
     
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  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    From seeing this dynamic in action for years, I find that unforgiveness tends to result in not experiencing God's presence. This also may be responsible for the use of sorcery to imitate the sensation of God's presence for congregations that are not big on forgiveness that doesn't have conditions.
     
  3. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Did the apostle Paul believe that his salvation was conditional:

    1Co 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

    Did the writer to the Romans believe the salvation of others was conditional:

    Rom 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in Hisgoodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

    Did Jesus believe salvation was conditional:

    Mat 25:30 - ‘And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    But directly to your question, see Matthew 24:48-51.
     
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  4. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Context is always important:

    Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

    and reading the surrounding context in Matthew we come to the conclusion that the "blasphemy against the Spirit" is the sin of unbelief.

    Whosoever believes, has been given the gift of faith, this is not of themselves.
     
  5. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yep, I would expect one would likely find this kind of fake presence at a Bill Johnson congregation.
     
  6. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think this is a great question. Personally, I think forgiveness goes with repentance. And we grow into this, as we grow into our salvation. I don't think we say a prayer and we're instantly saved. I think it's a process as we incorporate things like forgiveness and get rid of idols on our walk with God. Some people can do this quicker than others. But I think forgiveness is part of repentance and is required (with His help of course).
     
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    God is wanting and willing to forgive all of us. Forgiveness being an act of unconditional/undeserved Love is a transaction (God Loves all of us, but we have to humbly accept that love as pure charity to complete the transaction). For forgiveness the best explanation of it being a transaction comes with Matt, 18: 21-35, but that might take a lengthy explanation (the King did His part perfectly in forgiving but the servant did not humbly accept the King's forgiving as pure charity so forgiveness did not take place).

    Jesus teaches us the way it works Luke 7 "...he that is forgiven much Loves much..." and if you Love much you will forgive other unconditionally, it is automatic.
    If you have humbly accepted God's forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt than you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love which forgives others unconditionally).

    Conclusion: If you are not readily forgiving other unconditionally than you have not humbly accepted God's forgiving your huge debt, eventually God will quit offering forgiving you, because you will never make the free will choice on this earth to accept His charity. At Judgment it is to late to ask for forgiveness because you are not making it your free will choice with likely alternatives (hell is not a free will likely choice). Do not blame God because He does not forgive you, since you gave Him your choice to not humbly of your own free will accept His forgiveness as pure charity (Love).
     
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Perhaps forgiving others, is the same as God forgiving you?
     
  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    I believe Jesus is saying that forgiveness is a quality in the forgiven. If you do not forgive at all, then how has the concept of being forgiven by God apply to you? Jesus elaborated with a parable showing that forgiving others should stem from our own forgiveness from God in Christ, an outworking of what happened inside us.

    "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Ephesians 4:32

    Someone who does not forgive walks in unbelief that he was forgiven, that's my take.

    Our salvation, another word for deliverance, is not conditioned on our part. We must simply turn to him in repentant faith, trusting in the accomplishment of his merits alone.
     
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  10. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Seems like they viewed as conditional. Certainly none of them sat back on their "fire insurance" and pursued their own plans and lives as originally desired. Certainly for them obedience to Christ was not an optional extra where only "rewards" were on the line. And yet, none of them seemed to fear losing their salvation. I can understand this. I believe it is conditional and I do not have a single second where I am afraid of this. Perhaps one has to walk in these shoes to understand how conditional does not mean threatened.
     
  11. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Does not seem that way to Jesus. The parable makes that clear. And the experience of choosing to forgive someone who really wronged you makes it equally clear. It is a different choice, a separate experience. And unfortunately it is not automatic from being forgiven. Wished that it were. Would make it easier to obey.
     
  12. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    That is true. Especially when you say "pursued their own plans and lives as originally desired". Their original lives had to change through repentance. The first word of the gospel is "repent".
     
  13. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Interesting connection. Since I'm not in the US I am interested in this kind of input.
     
  14. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Your post was great until the last paragraph. Then you undid it all. You first say it is a quality of in those forgiven, which is interesting and could be valid. That is, those who forgive ARE forgiven. There is something to this.

    But then you destroyed that by dropping back into being forgiven not connected at all to forgiving others but merely by believing we are forgiven. Now you said "trusting in the accomplishment of his merits alone" but really that is simply trusting in a particular theology instead of trusting the words of JEsus that say if we do not forgive we will not be forgiven regardless of whether we trusted in "the accomplishment of his merits" or not. JEsus did not say that those who trust in the accomplishment of his merits are forgiven of their sins even if they do not forgive those who sin against them.

    Think about what you wrote above again. The first bit is really insightful. The last bit was running back into the safety of OSAS which does not require what you wrote in the first bit. Just think about it. Nothing against you personally, just looking at what you wrote.
     
  15. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    I believe in OSAS and see it work with what I said. Agree to disagree.
     
  16. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi, Dorothy Mae :)

    Jesus says,

    "'And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:25)

    So, God does want us to forgive "anyone" for "anything". Jesus says for us to do this, so we will find out what happens because we do this, not so we find out what will happen if we don't! This is not meant for us to find out what will happen if we don't forgive.

    And Jesus says to do our forgiving while we are praying. And this means we are with God in His love, how love has us praying. And in His love we pray blessing and forgiveness to others, in appreciation of God and how He has had mercy on us. Now we desire for Him to have mercy on others, too.

    But, of course, they can't receive this forgiveness unless they get into His love where this forgiveness is waiting and ready for them. So, then, we are praying out the effect of God's love, trusting God to have this effect any and all people, since we are praying in His all-loving love.

    But, what I understand is, that God's forgiveness lives in His love. So, possibly, while we lovingly forgive people, the way God loves us, we deeply enjoy this forgiveness which is in God's love. But while we are stubbornly refusing to forgive, we are not in God's love where His forgiveness is waiting for us.

    But we can repent and be restored to sharing with God in His love and forgiveness.
     
  17. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Good question, most men, if they forgive at all, forgive conditionally from the law written on the heart. I do not know if it is possible to forgive exactly as God forgives, and if it is possible, it is a gift from God to His people by the Spirit. We may wrestle with it for long periods, even striving in ourselves to forgive, then asking God to help us forgive and think it is settled, only for it to come up again at a latter date. Some things are easy to forgive by comparison to other things. Isn't it interesting the inner resistance when another is prompting one to forgive in a way of "badgering"? I've never thought badgering to be an effective method to produce forgiveness. The conditional Quid pro quo forgiveness of men did much to drive me towards the unconditional forgiveness of God in Christ. Praise God his ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9), he is not like men (Numbers 23:19).
     
  18. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    There is no greater love a human can show than this: to lay their life down for their friends, but while we were still His enemies Jesus died for us.

    This illustrates the difference between the love of God and the love of humanity.
     
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  19. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Until you accept God's love as pure charity in the form of forgiveness, you do not have Godly type Love to forgive unconditionally. Luke 7. You do not "forgive others" so God will forgive you, but you do forgive others because God has forgiven you.
     
  20. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    If we forgive as God forgives, then we do not forgive everyone unconditionally, because God does not forgive everyone unconditionally, in other words, he does not forgive both the believer AND the non-believer unconditionally. The difference here for humans is grace and law. Under Mosaic law we notice conditional forgiveness for both, at the same time we can also see an unconditional love in Covenants such as the Noahic Covenant. Notice how I switched terms from forgiveness to love? The characteristics of the Noahic Covenant is of a tolerating nature, a long suffering love, a patient love, but not an unconditional love which excludes justice. Theologians of the past have probably identified this along the lines of 'common grace', that (for a time) God withholds justice and does not deal with all of us as sinners from the moment we knowingly transgress his law. So as humans by way of application to non-believers we can testify to the 'common grace' of God by demonstrating godly tolerance, long suffering, and patience toward the non-believer knowing where we came from, and the saving grace of God.
     
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