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Featured Conditional salvation??

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dorothy Mae, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    You turn faith into a merit you offer to God, like an intellectual decision, instead of a gift given to you by God, an activity in us. You view it as something you have to constantly stir up every moment of your life, I view it as a work of God in me from the moment of my conversion to the day I die.

    Jesus' death accomplished more than my forgiveness of sins, every means of my salvation was bought at the cross. When he established the New Covenant in his blood, he established every spiritual blessing for salvation in that covenant. Everything necessary, like regeneration and the efficacious calling to faith under the gospel, was part of those blessings and promises Christ earned for me. I have faith, because Christ died for me to have faith. I am born again, because Christ died for it. All of these are gifts showering from heaven, because he had chosen me by grace. If I endure in the faith, I give credit to God who made me endure, he promised I would if I am in Christ, because it was purchased in Christ.

    If my salvation was conditional, the way you describe it, then what is justification? In Scripture, it is a legal act of declaring one righteous. Conditional salvation is like double jeopardy, Christ suffered for me and then he didn't, or Christ was insufficient to completely save. It either makes God unjust to flip flop on his word, or reduces Jesus' work as only part of our salvation whereby we must finish it. I believe Jesus is both Author and Finisher of my faith, you believe you executed the start of yours and only hope that you will complete it.
     
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  2. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

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    Good thread, imo.

    I believe that when we first come to Jesus that we are cleansed of all our old sins.

    But after that, life goes on and we have many opportunities to commit future sins that require future forgiveness. And I'm convinced those sins are forgiven only to the extent that we forgive others. This was a kind of epiphany for me about 10 years ago, when it finally dawned upon me that the Lord's Prayer itself requests only the amount of forgiveness that we have already given to others; it's improper to ask for more. And how can the parable of the unforgiving servant be any more clear?

    This caused me to release some grudges I was holding and brought me closer to Jesus. And now I try to be as forgiving as possible because when I need continued forgiveness I want it to be there for me.

    I confess the interpretation of the jail in that parable regarding lost rewards vs. condemnation has never been clear to me. If I were Catholic I suppose I'd consider it to be Purgatory. But I'm Protestant, so I'm forced to concede that it might indeed represent condemnation. All the more reason to live a life of forgiving others.
     
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  3. Unnamed Guy

    Unnamed Guy Member

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    You really need to study the bible and learn what you claim to believe. Remember that Christ was not a Christian, he was a Jew speaking to Jews about Jewish concerns. Forgiveness for Jews was emphatically conditional, but after the holy spirit was given there is no more forgiveness. Either you accept Jesus and are saved or you don't and are lost.

    Read a chapter of Proverbs every day. Proverbs has 31 chapters so you can keep your place by just looking at a calendar. There is no religion or nothing in Proverbs and you don't have to believe anything. Just read to find wisdom. When you are comfortable with that, then read the bible from Romans to 2 Thessalonians over and over until you start to remember what it says. That is the part that applies to Christians.
     
  4. Unnamed Guy

    Unnamed Guy Member

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    You missed verse 13: "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:" Verse 22 applies to gentiles. It does not speak of salvation.
     
  5. lismore

    lismore Legend

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    Interesting. I would say that when someone has been forgiven by God, when someone has experienced God's grace it results in you showing that grace and forgiveness to others. When you receive God's grace you have to pass it on. I think Jesus was talking to some who thought God had forgiven them, confident in their own works, but the lack of Grace in their lives showed they were living an illusion. God Bless :)
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I posted this on another forum but no one there was prepared to respond to it.
    From what I understand, Vatican II has reaffirmed all the statements of the Council of Trent.
    This means that:
    1. All those who have faith in Christ alone for salvation are subject to anathema (condemned to hell) by the Catholic Church.
    2. Indulgences (paying money to the Church to get loved ones out of Purgatory) is still in force and anyone who denies it are also subject to anathema (condemned to hell).

    The implication to this is that every Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, and Charismatic Christian who depends on Christ alone for salvation and does not hold with Indulgences is automatically condemned to hell according to the Catholic Church.

    This means that every Catholic priest, bishop, cardinal, and even the Pope has to fully abide by that teaching, because if they deny it, then they must be excommunicated and condemned to hell themselves.

    I don't think that the Catholic Church really wants to make that public knowledge, because who among those who are Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, or Charismatic, would be happy with fellowshipping with those who have that teaching?
     
  7. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just forgive and not to worry about others. We are only responsible for our own actions.
    Blessings
     
  8. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, the RCC doesn't want that to become public knowledge because it constitutes uniformed pop-mythology. The term "let them be anathema" is equivalent to "let them be shunned". It basically follows the Scriptural admonition to shake the dust off ones feet when dealing with obstinate unbelief, or to have no union with heretics. Still strong language in today's climate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  9. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The anathema in 1 Corinthians 16:22 denotes simply that they who love not the Lord are rightly objects of loathing and execration to all holy beings; they are guilty of a crime that merits the severest condemnation; they are exposed to the just sentence of "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."

    I believe that this was the position of the RCC at the Council of Trent, ratified by Vatican II, and is till the current policy of the Church toward those who have faith in Christ alone for salvation. They might like to water it down and pretty it up so as not to offend non-Catholics, but the policy still holds as true as what it always has been for them.
     
  10. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Is unforgiveness a sin? Yes or no? Does it apply to Christians? Yes or no?
     
  11. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
     
  12. worshipjunkie

    worshipjunkie Active Member

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    No, VII has not reaffirmed all the statements of the Council of Trent. Vatican II didn't affirm a lot of anything. It was a pastoral council and did not follow the traditional dogmatic statements that a council would make. I would err on the side of saying it didn't reaffirm Trent because so many doctrines Trent taught were contradicted at Vatican II.

    Yes, everyone has to be part of the Catholic church in order to be saved according to Catholic teaching. However, what has changed is that what is meant by "be part of the Church" has been stretched in order to make it a virtually meaningless term. Protestants are considered to be part of the church by their baptism. Jews are considered Christians, basically, with a valid saving covenant of their own. Muslims worship the same God as we do. And so on, and so on. Every Pope since Vatican II has explicitly denied the dogma "no salvation outside the Church." Pope John Paul II did so constantly in his encyclicals. He believed that by Jesus becoming man for us and dying on the Cross for us, we have all become united to Him and His saving sacrifice and are all part of the church. Pope Benedict XVI wrote a lot on how the Jews are saved without Christ. Pope Francis has denied the doctrine constantly.
    Indulgences aren't paying money to get loved ones out of purgatory. Many acts may earn an indulgence from prayers to charitable works to reading the Bible. Indulgences remit the temporal punishment for sin (Catholics believe that when the sin is forgiven, some level of punishment remains for the sinner to atone for in one way or another). The idea is to lessen time in purgatory, yes, but it's not as simple as "Money for freedom".
    Hope that helps!
     
  13. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I really don't understand what you mean. It is rather obvious that the meaning is those the writer is addressing will be cut off unless they continue in goodness. They will be cut off just as the non believing Jews were cut off. If the non believing Jews were cut off, what were they cut off from?
     
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Vatican II did not abolish anything that was decided as the principles of the Council of Trent, therefore they are still in force. Therefore, the anathema statements in the Council of Trent report are still in force.
     
  15. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    How does one know one is fully in love, 1/2 in love it 1/3? Relationships are not measured that way and to try and quantity it usually indicates self interest.
     
  16. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    Does love dictate if you are saved? Is salvation directly proportionate to love?
     
  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I think that one is fully saved or not. Jesus is not a half-Saviour. He is a complete Saviour, and He saves to the uttermost as soon as a person says "yes" to Him when He calls them to believe in Him.

    People have different levels of grace; not that they are saved any less than others, but that a "weak" believer, although fully converted to Christ, may have a low level of confidence and assurance - that's what I call "small grace". Others have a much stronger confidence and assurance, and I term them as "great grace". I am using the Puritan definition of grace in this respect.

    Just because a person has small grace, it doesn't mean they should be discouraged, because Jesus will take even a spark of grace and fan it into a flame. He never stamps out even a grace that shows a little smoke. He sees the potential, and pours Holy Spirit petrol on it to make the flame burn brighter.

    Justification is based on faith in Christ alone, and not on any level of performance in us. We are, and always, until Jesus comes, just poor sinners and nothing at all, but as a genuinely converted believer, Jesus is all in all.

    But we all have different levels of sanctification, and the work of Christ in us through the Holy Spirit is at different levels. Take note: a small grain of gold is just the same as a large nugget because both are gold and have value. A small gain of Gold is much better than a large nugget of fools gold! Get it?
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I view it as a relationship, the One I love and aim to love with all my heart and soul and mind and strength. You turn it into a legal contract God is obligated to fulfill from which you gain a lot.
    If you ignore the warnings Christ gave, you are not demonstrating faith in him but faith in a theology that men conceived to relieve themselves of the cost of following him while retaining the promise of Heaven. I’m not convinced God is obligated to fulfill what OSAS theology promises.
    It is a state of cleanliness from which we can walk with our Maker.
    It is an act of love and justice and mercy.
    No, it is like a marriage, both sides necessary for the relationship.
    No more than either a wife or a husband must alone maintain the marriage. You see it as a legal agreement. I see it as a love relationship.
    I see Jesus as the lover of my soul. His part is the greater in our interaction, but he does not do it all as that kills relationship.

    Not saying OSAS believers are not saved. But the focus on what they got instead of WHO is giving is remarkably consistent in those who embrace this theology.
     
  19. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that People do not realize that they have been fully forgiven as he reason they do not forgive. I think that we have the tendency to prefer to accuse those who sin against us of evil and hold that just judgement as it gives a certain pleasure. Forgiving is not pleasant at all.
     
  20. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I guess I think the better division is that some know God a lot better than others. Paul pressed on to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the Fellowship of his sufferings. Some do not really want this at all, they just want to be legally "saved" from hell. Some want it a Little as Long as it is not too costly. And a few want Christ with their whole being and fan that flame until it becomes the biggest desire in their lives. These latter come to know Him. And they know him a lot better than those who just want and focus on their salvation from hell. There is a world of difference between these hearts.
     
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