What the natural mind can not comprehend of the Spirit, it will distort and twist to mean something else.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
All kinds of people have problems with God's words. That's nothing new. I provide a few examples of God's hatred of sin and sinner, and "preference" could not be substituted for hate in any of the examples.
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Thanks for the clarification.Frozen chosen means God knows what he is doing while the melted chosen knows what man is doing
Your not spiritually minded are you. Take it up with Christ at the judgement. It is His words you do not like.
Try making sense of that view in light of these texts:
The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. (Psalm 5:5)
There are six things that the LORD hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers. (Proverbs 6:16-19)
What the natural mind can not comprehend of the Spirit, it will distort and twist to mean something else.
All kinds of people have problems with God's words. That's nothing new. I provide a few examples of God's hatred of sin and sinner, and "preference" could not be substituted for hate in any of the examples.
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
That's why I provided the example of Jacob and Esau. It seems to indicate preference there.
Your original statement was that "hate" means preference in Hebrew. I gave you some verses which don't fit your interpretation. Do you have a rebuttal?
I was talking about when Jesus said we have to hate father and mother. Preference, value, honor above, etc. could be used here. Yes, you gave verses that use the word "hate" in other ways. That's why I said there may be other Hebrew words that we translate into "hate" just as there are multiple Hebrew words we translate into "love". It would take a word study from someone familiar with the language to get all the details about it.
Anyway, the Jacob and Esau quote I gave was to indicate the "preference" context.
Psalm 11, another 'hate' verse
4 The Lord is in His holy temple,
The Lord’s throne is in heaven;
His eyes behold,
His eyelids test the sons of men.
5 The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
Shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the Lord is righteous,
He loves righteousness;
His countenance beholds the upright.
Plainly God hates sin and sinfulness in people.
Plainly God hates the wicked sinners, they He will destroy.
Unless you repent, God will destroy you wicked sinners in hell.
And you can not repent unless God grants to you repentance.
Christ will not accept you as you are, those who enter into the kingdom, must first be born of God in the Spirit.
Since the carnal natural mind is DEATH, at war against God, and CANNOT be subject to God's laws, God must make you born again first to enter the kingdom second. We do not in our natural carnal mind please God at all, we must be changed first, regenerated, born again to believe in Christ and enter the kingdom.
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
For example,
2 Corinthians 7:10 [Full Chapter]
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Acts 5:31
Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
All repentance, the ability to repent comes from God as His gift, without which you will never repent.
Those that do repent, don't just take up God on His offer of repentance, God has granted them repentance unto life, cleansing their hearts by faith, which is also a gift.
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Since without faith it is impossible to please God, then those without faith can never be saved.
Psalm 11, another 'hate' verse
4 The Lord is in His holy temple,
The Lord’s throne is in heaven;
His eyes behold,
His eyelids test the sons of men.
5 The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
Shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the Lord is righteous,
He loves righteousness;
His countenance beholds the upright.
Plainly God hates sin and sinfulness in people.
Plainly God hates the wicked sinners, they He will destroy.
Unless you repent, God will destroy you wicked sinners in hell.
And you can not repent unless God grants to you repentance.
Christ will not accept you as you are, those who enter into the kingdom, must first be born of God in the Spirit.
Since the carnal natural mind is DEATH, at war against God, and CANNOT be subject to God's laws, God must make you born again first to enter the kingdom second. We do not in our natural carnal mind please God at all, we must be changed first, regenerated, born again to believe in Christ and enter the kingdom.
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
For example,
2 Corinthians 7:10 [Full Chapter]
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Acts 5:31
Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
All repentance, the ability to repent comes from God as His gift, without which you will never repent.
Those that do repent, don't just take up God on His offer of repentance, God has granted them repentance unto life, cleansing their hearts by faith, which is also a gift.
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Since without faith it is impossible to please God, then those without faith can never be saved.
The Lord gives 'us' who believe a new heart. We believe since we have the new heart that can know Him, something the world can never know.The Lord is righteous and just. The Lord sees the heart and all things and any vengence is His.
We need to be careful when we think we have the kind of information and righteousness God has.
So how does that answer my response to why you say 'hate' is justified by a Christian?The Lord gives 'us' who believe a new heart. We believe since we have the new heart that can know Him, something the world can never know.
And He disciplines everyone He receives that they will not be condemned along with the world.
The new heart you must have or you're not His.
It is what He does for you, and He causes you to walk in His statutes.
Notice this is all of Him, and not of us. This is the same here in the OT as in the NT today.
Ezek 36
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
Are you changing the subject?Hebrews 8, about the new covenant, note how it works, God causes us to be His people.
The writer uses the OT verses to explain the New Covenant we experience today. v10 - v12 is how it works.
God supercedes our own thoughts and hearts by an interventional force, putting them into our minds and writing them on our hearts, with the result we are His people and He our God..
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says:“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Such an excellent post. This statement really stood out to meGod has a plan.
It would be strange to say in one sentence that God, having infinite wisdom and power, would create all things and have no definite and perfect plan for those things. Even a man, who is subject to all kinds of errors, develops a plan or idea before he acts; and a man who starts a housing project without design or purpose we'd consider foolish. If this is true of men, how much more is it true of God? And since we believe that God is infinite, His plan must extend to every single detail for ALL these things. We cannot conceive of God bringing into existence a universe without a plan which would extend to all that would happen and all things in that universe. The Scriptures teach that God's providential control extends to everything, therefore His plan too must be equally comprehensive.
God has the best possible plan for this world, and Calvinists hold strongly to the understanding of His ruling power and trust in Him. The Calvinist recognizes that God is God, and He is free from all human limitations. Nothing, however small, occurs without His ordering or design for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory. The sinful acts of men are included in this plan, even the fall itself. These acts are foreseen, permitted and have their exact place in the Divine design. Just look at the crucifixion of Christ for the example, being both a horrible sinful crime and the saving event for His people, it had its exact and necessary place in the plan as told by the prophets.
History in all its details and the smallest actions of men is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God. His decrees are not successively formed as the emergency arises, but are all parts of one all-comprehending plan, and we should never think of God suddenly evolving a new plan or changing something in order to react to the will of men.
God is sovereign.
God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He exerts not merely a general influence, but actually rules in the world in which He has created. All things without exception are disposed by Him, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass. Individual personalities and second causes are fully recognized, not as independent of God, but as having their proper place in His plan.
The tendency is to set aside God's sovereignty in order to make room for the autocracy of the human will. The pride and presumption of man, on the one hand, and his ignorance and depravity on the other, lead him to exclude God and to exalt himself instead. God is the ultimate source of all power that is found in His creation. God has lost none of His power over creation, and it is highly dishonoring to Him to suppose that He struggles against the wills of men to attempt to accomplish His purposes.
Nature of men.
From birth men are under the curse of sin brought about through the bloodline of Adam. Because men are cursed they are actuated by wrong principles, doing no good for the glory of God, and completely incapable of loving God or doing anything that could bring about the removal of the curse. Additionally he may have intellectual knowledge of the facts and doctrines of the Bible yet he lacks the spiritual discernment of the excellence of the Scriptures and ability to understand them. Cursed men are unable to perform any spiritual actions, only actions befitting of their nature. This man is a captive, a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage nor would he care to until he is made willing.
Many are chosen, but not all.
The essence of the Bible, or underlining story, is the redemption of sinners. Since we know that God is sovereign in all things and men are unable to save themselves, it is safe to say that it is God who saves men and He is sovereign in choosing who is redeemed. Our salvation flows from the fountain of God's mercy and He adopts us, not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but rather He surely gives to some what He definitely refuses to others. The Divine will never made dependent on the creatures will for its determinations, all who are and will be His are rightfully so by His plan alone. By His decree he has determined some to everlasting life out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, according to His will. The rest are passed by to be left in their natural state to the praise of His glorious justice, all for His glory.
Since God has chosen some and not others to eternal life, it is plain to see whom the primary purpose of Christ's work was intended for. Not all men, but His Elect.
Effective and permanent change.
In regards only to those whom God has elected to salvation by His saving grace there is a total and permanent change that occurs in them. At an appointed time predetermined by the His sovereign will, His spirit comes upon a man's heart convincing him of his current state of sin and misery, enlightening his mind in the knowledge of Christ and beginning the work of salvation. This cursed man, being altered and changed by the working of the Holy Spirit, is enabled to answer to call to salvation and embrace the grace freely offered. And if God has chosen these men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit has effectively applied the benefit of redemption, the conclusion is that the persons shall not be lost, ever. The whole course of the salvation of men is divinely planned and divinely guided, not thwarted or altered by the will of men. This is Calvinism in a nutshell, explained to the best of my understanding.
That's what the Calvinists always say. However, I and many others strongly disagree on the basis of a number of biblical passages passages you have overlooked.every bit of TULIP is founded in the Bible whether you like it or not:
T: Genesis 6:5, 8:21; Numbers 15:37-39; 1 Kings 8:46; Job 15:14-16; Psalm 14:1-3, 51:5, 94:11, 130:3; Proverbs 4:23, 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20, 8:11; Isaiah 6:5, 53:6, 64:6; Jeremiah 10:14, 13:23, 17:9; Matthew 7:11, 15:19; Mark 10:18; Luke 17:10; John 2:24, 3:36, 6:44, 15:5, 16; Acts 3:16, 16:14; Romans 1:18-2:16, 3:9-20, 23, 5:12, 7:18-20, 8:7; 1 Corinthians 2:14, 12:3; 2 Corinthians 3:5, 4:3, 11:3; Ephesians 2:1-6, 4:17-19; Colossians 2:13; 1 Timothy 2:25, 6:5; 2 Timothy 3:8; Titus 1:5; James 2:10, 3:2, 8; Revelation 9:20, 16:9.
U: Deuteronomy 7:6-10, 15, 9:5, 29:4; Psalm 65:4; Isaiah 45:4; Mark 13:20; John 1:13, 6:44, 65, 15:16, 17:2; Acts 2:39, 9:1-18, 11:17, 16:14, 18:27; Romans 8:28-30, 9:10-26, 10:20, 11:5; Ephesians 1:1-11; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Philippians 1:29; 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9, 2:10, 19, 25; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 9:15; James 1:18; Jude 1.
L: Scriptural Support:
Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Matthew 1:21, 11:25-27, 13:10-15, 44-46, 15:13, 20:28, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.
I: Irresistible grace/drawing of God's elect.
Genesis 20:6, 35:5; Exodus 34:23; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30:6; Judges 14:1-4; 1 Kings 4:29; 1 Chronicles 22:12, 29:18; Ezra 1:1, 5, 6:22, 7:27; Nehemiah 1:11, 2:8, 12; Esther 2:17, 4:14, 6:1-4; Ezekiel 36:25-32; Psalm 33:10, 65:4, 139:16; Proverbs 21:1; Isaiah 44:28; Jeremiah 10:24; Haggai 1:14; Luke 24:16, 31, 45; John 6:37, 45, 10:3, 4, 27; Acts 11:18, 13:48, 16:14, 17:26; 1 Corinthians 3:5, 12:13, 15:10; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Galatians 2:8; Ephesians 2:1-6, 3:7; Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 13:20; James 4:13-15.
P: Scriptural Support:
1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?