Calvinism, explained.

[GillDouglas]

God has a plan.

It would be strange to say in one sentence that God, having infinite wisdom and power, would create all things and have no definite and perfect plan for those things. Even a man, who is subject to all kinds of errors, develops a plan or idea before he acts; and a man who starts a housing project without design or purpose we'd consider foolish. If this is true of men, how much more is it true of God? And since we believe that God is infinite, His plan must extend to every single detail for ALL these things. We cannot conceive of God bringing into existence a universe without a plan which would extend to all that would happen and all things in that universe. The Scriptures teach that God's providential control extends to everything, therefore His plan too must be equally comprehensive.

God has the best possible plan for this world, and Calvinists hold strongly to the understanding of His ruling power and trust in Him. The Calvinist recognizes that God is God, and He is free from all human limitations. Nothing, however small, occurs without His ordering or design for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory. The sinful acts of men are included in this plan, even the fall itself. These acts are foreseen, permitted and have their exact place in the Divine design. Just look at the crucifixion of Christ for the example, being both a horrible sinful crime and the saving event for His people, it had its exact and necessary place in the plan as told by the prophets.

History in all its details and the smallest actions of men is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God. His decrees are not successively formed as the emergency arises, but are all parts of one all-comprehending plan, and we should never think of God suddenly evolving a new plan or changing something in order to react to the will of men.

God is sovereign.

God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He exerts not merely a general influence, but actually rules in the world in which He has created. All things without exception are disposed by Him, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass. Individual personalities and second causes are fully recognized, not as independent of God, but as having their proper place in His plan.

The tendency is to set aside God's sovereignty in order to make room for the autocracy of the human will. The pride and presumption of man, on the one hand, and his ignorance and depravity on the other, lead him to exclude God and to exalt himself instead. God is the ultimate source of all power that is found in His creation. God has lost none of His power over creation, and it is highly dishonoring to Him to suppose that He struggles against the wills of men to attempt to accomplish His purposes.

Nature of men.

From birth men are under the curse of sin brought about through the bloodline of Adam. Because men are cursed they are actuated by wrong principles, doing no good for the glory of God, and completely incapable of loving God or doing anything that could bring about the removal of the curse. Additionally he may have intellectual knowledge of the facts and doctrines of the Bible yet he lacks the spiritual discernment of the excellence of the Scriptures and ability to understand them. Cursed men are unable to perform any spiritual actions, only actions befitting of their nature. This man is a captive, a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage nor would he care to until he is made willing.

Many are chosen, but not all.

The essence of the Bible, or underlining story, is the redemption of sinners. Since we know that God is sovereign in all things and men are unable to save themselves, it is safe to say that it is God who saves men and He is sovereign in choosing who is redeemed. Our salvation flows from the fountain of God's mercy and He adopts us, not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but rather He surely gives to some what He definitely refuses to others. The Divine will never made dependent on the creatures will for its determinations, all who are and will be His are rightfully so by His plan alone. By His decree he has determined some to everlasting life out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, according to His will. The rest are passed by to be left in their natural state to the praise of His glorious justice, all for His glory.
Since God has chosen some and not others to eternal life, it is plain to see whom the primary purpose of Christ's work was intended for. Not all men, but His Elect.

Effective and permanent change.

In regards only to those whom God has elected to salvation by His saving grace there is a total and permanent change that occurs in them. At an appointed time predetermined by the His sovereign will, His spirit comes upon a man's heart convincing him of his current state of sin and misery, enlightening his mind in the knowledge of Christ and beginning the work of salvation. This cursed man, being altered and changed by the working of the Holy Spirit, is enabled to answer to call to salvation and embrace the grace freely offered. And if God has chosen these men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit has effectively applied the benefit of redemption, the conclusion is that the persons shall not be lost, ever. The whole course of the salvation of men is divinely planned and divinely guided, not thwarted or altered by the will of men. This is Calvinism in a nutshell, explained to the best of my understanding.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

It would be strange to say in one sentence that God, having infinite wisdom and power, would create all things and have no definite and perfect plan for those things. Even a man, who is subject to all kinds of errors, develops a plan or idea before he acts; and a man who starts a housing project without design or purpose we'd consider foolish. If this is true of men, how much for is it true of God? And since we believe that God is infinite, His plan must extend to every single detail for ALL these things. We cannot conceive of God bringing into existence a universe without a plan which would extend to all that would happen and all things in that universe. The Scriptures teach that God's providential control extends to everything, therefore His plan too must be equally comprehensive.

There is no logically tenable position here. Devising a plan "before" an action is only relevant if we assume a framework of temporality and causality. As there is no "before" the creation of the cosmos (since the concept of "before" only logically obtains with the assumption of temporality), there can be no preceding plan. The only way God could know the outlaying of the universe "before" God's creative acts within creation is if the universe exists concomitantly with the eternality of the Godhead, or within the same.

God has the best possible plan for this world

This doesn't say anything at all. If God, as a God, has a plan, then there can be no other plan than that which God has. Adding superlatives does not add any meaningful information to the statement.

History in all its details, and the smallest actions of men, is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God. His decrees are not successively formed as the emergency arises, but are all parts of one all-comprehending plan, and we should never think of God suddenly evolving a new plan or changing something in order to react to the will of men.

To my original statement about the absurdity of saying that God has plan for the creation "before" the creation, I would add that these statements about the fatalism of history are equally irrelevant. If the creation exists concomitantly with the creator (whereby God could have knowledge of the same "eternally"), then God has no more control over the creation than we do. While God might have perfect knowledge of what will happen (by virtue of eternally knowing its outcomes), God is perfectly incapable of influencing history if God foreknows it by virtue of its external existence.

But if we alternatively conclude that God eternally knows creation, not because it exists concomitantly with the Godhead, but is rather of the Godhead, then God is equally incapable of "changing" history, for the outflowing of it would be as immutable as the nature of the Godhead itself (as it would be, in fact, of the Godhead by virtue of eternally belonging to God's knowledge).

God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He exerts not merely a general influence, but actually rules in the world which He has created. All things without exception are disposed by Him, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass. Individual personalities and second causes are fully recognize, not as independent of God, but as having their proper place in His plan.

God permits and wills nothing in such a schema. As the creation--by virtue of belonging eternally to the knowledge of God--must be either concomitantly eternal and external to the Godhead, OR eternally essential with the very nature of the Godhead, there can be no mutability within creation, for it is either an impenetrable force against which God has no power, or the very outflowing of the divine nature itself, which would therefore be immutable. Speaking of God "will-ing" and "permitting" in the first scenario would be impossible, tautological in the second.

The essence of the Bible, or underlining story, is the redemption of sinners. Since we know that God is sovereign in all things and men are unable to save themselves, it is safe to say that it is God who saves men and He is sovereign in choosing who is redeemed. Our salvation flows from the fountain of God's mercy and He adopts us, not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but rather He surely gives to some what He definitely refuses to others. The Divine will never made dependent on the creaturely will for its determinations, all who are and will be His are rightfully so by His plan. By His decree he has determined some to everlasting life out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good work, according to His will. The rest are passed by to be left in their natural state to the praise of His glorious justice, all for His glory.
Since God has chosen some and not others to eternal life, it is plain to see whom the primary purpose of Christ's work was for.

In such a scenario, Christ's work is a charade and facade. God's glory can neither be diminished nor exalted by anything, even by God's own actions. So to propose that God's decisions in creation are done for the edification of God's glory is philosophically rather absurd. God would be equally glorious in saving all and damning none, in not creating the universe at all, in turning a blind eye to the whole of human sinfulness, or calling Godself a potato. None of the trappings of "God glorifying Godself" that the Reformed erect to explain completely absurd theology have any bearing within a rational theological understanding of God's nature and immutability.

 

[sdowney717]

Matthew 7, Christ says
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

God does not give holy things to dogs and pigs, (people who are unregenerate), so why do so many Christians think God does that?

Jesus says,
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Some say clean up your life, sanctify yourself first to let God clean the inside, but God, not men, cleans up the inside first so then the outside may become clean.

 

[sdowney717]

There is no logically tenable position here. Devising a plan "before" an action is only relevant if we assume a framework of temporality and causality. As there is no "before" the creation of the cosmos (since the concept of "before" only logically obtains with the assumption of temporality), there can be no preceding plan. The only way God could know the outlaying of the universe "before" God's creative acts within creation is if the universe exists concomitantly with the eternality of the Godhead, or within the same.



This doesn't say anything at all. If God, as a God, has a plan, then there can be no other plan than that which God has. Adding superlatives does not add any meaningful information to the statement.

To my original statement about the absurdity of saying that God has plan for the creation "before" the creation, I would add that these statements about the fatalism of history are equally irrelevant. If the creation exists concomitantly with the creator (whereby God could have knowledge of the same "eternally"), then God has no more control over the creation than we do. While God might have perfect knowledge of what will happen (by virtue of eternally knowing its outcomes), God is perfectly incapable of influencing history if God foreknows it by virtue of its external existence.

But if we alternatively conclude that God eternally knows creation, not because it exists concomitantly with the Godhead, but is rather of the Godhead, then God is equally incapable of "changing" history, for the outflowing of it would be as immutable as the nature of the Godhead itself (as it would be, in fact, of the Godhead by virtue of eternally belonging to God's knowledge).

Well a lot of words there.
God does have a purpose before time began, so then before anything was created for the elect as Paul teaches in v9.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

No haphazardness, no reactance to the creature, everything is as God intended it before He made it. God's purpose is to grow the kingdom of God, it will grow larger and larger and someday fill the entire earth. The vision Daniel has tells us that by way of the giant statue and the rock smashing it to bits and then becoming a huge mountain.

Daniel 2
29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Well a lot of words there.
God does have a purpose before time began, so then before anything was created for the elect as Paul teaches in v9.

But logically and philosophically, how it is possible to say this? There is no "before time began", as the referent for "before" is only possible once one assumes the existence of the universe. If we are talking about this "plan" existing logically prior to the existence of the universe, we must question how such knowledge of the universe can exist (whether chronologically or logically) apart from the actuality of it (for without the existence of the universe obtaining, it is no-thing).

The anterior knowledge of creation must surely have a reference, and if it does, we can only locate this reference in the actuality of the thing about which there is knowledge (for it would be quite absurd to say that God has knowledge of no-thing!). So from where does this knowledge of creation arise? The only logical conclusion is that it must be eternally concomitant with the existence of God, either by virtue of existing alongside of God, or by essentiality with God's very nature and existence. So which is it?

 

[sdowney717]

But logically and philosophically, how it is possible to say this? There is no "before time began", as the referent for "before" is only possible once one assumes the existence of the universe. If we are talking about this "plan" existing logically prior to the existence of the universe, we must question how such knowledge of the universe can exist (whether chronologically or logically) apart from the actuality of it (for without the existence of the universe obtaining, it is no-thing).

The anterior knowledge of creation must surely have a reference, and if it does, we can only locate this reference in the actuality of the thing about which there is knowledge (for it would be quite absurd to say that God has knowledge of no-thing!). So from where does this knowledge of creation arise? The only logical conclusion is that it must be eternally concomitant with the existence of God, either by virtue of existing alongside of God, or by essentiality with God's very nature and existence. So which is it?

I liken it to myself devising a plan to create something before it exists, I imagine how it will be in my mind. Then I fashion it according to the plan I made beforehand.
How much more for God who exists before anything was to do that and more?
God could have played out any number of existences for the creation in His own mind ahead of the existence of anything that exists.

It is awesome to understand that before anything existed, God was.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

I liken it to myself devising a plan to create something before it exists, I imagine how it will be in my mind. Then I fashion it according to the plan I made beforehand.
How much more for God who exists before anything was to do that and more?
God could have played out any number of existences for the creation in His own mind ahead of the existence of anything that exists.

The analogy doesn't fit, for you are not creating things ex nihilo; whatever is made by human hands, regardless of how innovative or "new" it might seem, is really the product of, and boundary-limited to--that which already exists.

So the question still needs answering: how did God "know of" and "plan" a universe that did not exist? Do we not need to posit a universe which is concomitant and (perhaps) essential with the eternality of God in order to account for God's knowledge of it?

 

[GillDouglas]

The analogy doesn't fit, for you are not creating things ex nihilo; whatever is made by human hands, regardless of how innovative or "new" it might seem, is really the product of, and boundary-limited to--that which already exists.

So the question still needs answering: how did God "know of" and "plan" a universe that did not exist? Do we not need to posit a universe which is concomitant and (perhaps) essential with the eternality of God in order to account for God's knowledge of it?

His analogy does fit. Unless you're saying that those who dream up ideas of things that have not yet been made by man, making plans of said design etc., is a impossibility because all things already existed?

This doesn't say anything at all. If God, as a God, has a plan, then there can be no other plan than that which God has. Adding superlatives does not add any meaningful information to the statement.

God could have conjured a million and one different plans for the world of men, but the one He did plan is the best possible one.

God permits and wills nothing in such a schema. As the creation--by virtue of belonging eternally to the knowledge of God--must be either concomitantly eternal and external to the Godhead, OR eternally essential with the very nature of the Godhead, there can be no mutability within creation, for it is either an impenetrable force against which God has no power, or the very outflowing of the divine nature itself, which would therefore be immutable. Speaking of God "will-ing" and "permitting" in the first scenario would be impossible, tautological in the second.

By the virtue of the fact that God has created everything which exists, He is the absolute Owner and final Authority of all that He has made. The people and nations of the earth, in their insignificance, are as the small dust of the matter when compared with His greatness; and far sooner might the sun be stopped in it's course than God be hindered in His work or will. Nature, nations, and the fortunes (or misfortunes) of the individual alike present, in all their many changes, the transcript of His purpose alone.

In such a scenario, Christ's work is a charade and facade. God's glory can neither be diminished nor exalted by anything, even by God's own actions. So to propose that God's decisions in creation are done for the edification of God's glory is philosophically rather absurd. God would be equally glorious in saving all and damning none, in not creating the universe at all, in turning a blind eye to the whole of human sinfulness, or calling Godself a potato. None of the trappings of "God glorifying Godself" that the Reformed erect to explain completely absurd theology have any bearing within a rational theological understanding of God's nature and immutability.

"I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." (John 17:4-5)

 

[alexandriaisburning]

His analogy does fit. Unless you're saying that those who dream up ideas of things that have not yet been made by man, making plans of said design etc., is a impossibility because all things already existed?

Yes, I said precisely that. People who dream up ideas don't create these ideas ex nihilo; they are based on that which exists. God's creation of the universe, however, is not out of that which already exists, but is rather out of nothing. This is precisely why God's logical (or chronological, as in your philosophically loose rendering of it) knowledge of the universe is an untenable proposition...for how can God have knowledge of that which doesn't exist? If God is to have knowledge of something, it must exist (for it's obtuse to say that God knows no-thing...). Therefore, in order to say that God has eternal knowledge of the universe is necessarily to posit an understanding of the universe that has essential existence with eternal nature and being of God.

God could have conjured a million and one different plans for the world of men, but the one He did plan is the best possible one.

That's tautological, unless you are going to admit that there was a possibility of God "conjuring" a plan that is not in keeping with God's nature? What an absurd thought that is.

By the virtue of the fact that God has created everything which exists, He is the absolute Owner and final Authority of all that He has made. The people and nations of the earth, in their insignificance, are as the small dust of the matter when compared with His greatness; and far sooner might the sun be stopped in it's course than God be hindered in His work or will. Nature, nations, and the fortunes (or misfortunes) of the individual alike present, in all their many changes, the transcript of His purpose alone.

This doesn't answer the challenge I raised whatsoever. Your bloviating doesn't intersect the serious philosophical issues I've raised regarding your position.

 

[sdowney717]

for how can God have knowledge of that which doesn't exist? If God is to have knowledge of something, it must exist (for it's obtuse to say that God knows no-thing...). Therefore, in order to say that God has eternal knowledge of the universe is necessarily to posit an understanding of the universe that has essential existence with eternal nature and being of God.

Surprised anyone would say such a thing.
God does not have to create something to have knowledge of it.
For what then is 'foreknowledge, or foreknowing', the meaning is lost, do you understand?

God foreknew His people individually. So before they existed God knew them and loved them in great love.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

v29, those God foreknew before they were born, He predestined them to be believers in Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

The universe had a beginning and it has an ending.
There will be another universe created, with a new earth and a new heavens, the old one will pass away, it is described as fleeing away or like changing clothes.

Hebrews 1
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”

The heavens and earth flee away from God sitting on the throne, and the day of judgement is revealed.
So what then is this place where exists no heaven or earth?
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then a new heavens and earth appear. And this is the age of the regeneration, the renewal of all things.

Revelation 21 New King James Version (NKJV)
All Things Made New
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

The former things have passed away and God says even the remembrance of them will be forgotten for the glory which will be revealed. I liken this as the past pains of the past life, all the sorrows, God will wipe away all tears, and there will be only joy and peace and love for those who are worthy to partake of the age of the regeneration.

Isaiah 65
The Glorious New Creation
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.

And again God emphasizes their will be a new heaven and a new earth, Apostle Peter also teaches the same.
Isaiah 66
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

 

[Job8]

God has lost none of His power, and it is highly dishonoring to Him to suppose that He struggles against the wills of men to attempt to accomplish His purposes.

Fallacy #1. Salvation is about power and not about grace.

To say that God *struggles against the wills of men* is to misrepresent the truth, and to misrepresent those who reject Calvinism. The truth is that God pleads with men and admonishes men to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. But He does not compel men to do so. Men can and do harden their hearts because of unbelief, and God is grieved with that. Please note carefully (Heb 3:7-19):

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[GillDouglas]

To say that God *struggles against the wills of men* is to misrepresent the truth, and to misrepresent those who reject Calvinism. The truth is that God pleads with men and admonishes men to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. But He does not compel men to do so. Men can and do harden their hearts because of unbelief, and God is grieved with that. Please note carefully (Heb 3:7-19):

Men do not harden their own hearts. They are hardened at birth, and may remain that way their entire lives unless God intercedes and softens them.

 

[Job8]

Men do not harden their own hearts. They are hardened at birth, and may remain that way their entire lives unless God intercedes and softens them.

If that were truly the case, there would be no exhortation to hear the Spirit s voice TODAY, and not harden your heart. Please note *TODAY* is repeated several times, to emphasize that this is not in the past, or at birth, but right now, at this very moment.

And had the hearts of all Israel been softened (as you claim) they all would have entered into God s rest. But they were not allowed to enter because of unbelief. Please read and understand what that passage is teaching, and then do not harden your heart to the truth.

 

[GillDouglas]

If that were truly the case, there would be no exhortation to hear the Spirit s voice TODAY, and not harden your heart. Please note *TODAY* is repeated several times, to emphasize that this is not in the past, or at birth, but right now, at this very moment.

And had the hearts of all Israel been softened (as you claim) they all would have entered into God s rest. But they were not allowed to enter because of unbelief. Please read and understand what that passage is teaching, and then do not harden your heart to the truth.

A man can no more harden his own heart than he can soften it. I never claimed that all hearts have been softened, or all would be softened. Man is born with a hardened heart due to the curse of sin. Until God softens the heart (or lifts the veil | begins the saving work | etc.) they will never spiritually discern any truth about sin, themselves or God (or His Word).

 

[GillDouglas]

Fallacy #1. Salvation is about power and not about grace.

To say that God *struggles against the wills of men* is to misrepresent the truth, and to misrepresent those who reject Calvinism. The truth is that God pleads with men and admonishes men to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. But He does not compel men to do so. Men can and do harden their hearts because of unbelief, and God is grieved with that. Please note carefully (Heb 3:7-19):

For those who reject the sovereignty of God in regards to salvation also reject His power to control the outcome of His plan. What you see as Gods plea is the irresistible grace upon a mans heart which alters his perception of the world. Only once the change has occurred does a man fully understand the things of the Spirit!

 

[sdowney717]

God does prevail over the will of man, that must be a part of the drawing process that God does to bring people to Christ.
In this drawing (dragging), Jesus says God is teaching people so they actually do believe from a transformed - regenerated heart.
For with the heart men believe unto righteousness.

We get a clue here what is happening.
Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God actively puts into the minds of people His laws and writes His laws on their hearts. This actually accomplishes their transformation into His people. It is not just potentially doing something. The apostolic writer of Hebrews 8 is describing how the New Covenant works. He will be their God, they WILL be His people, God declares this truth.

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes, I said precisely that. People who dream up ideas don't create these ideas ex nihilo; they are based on that which exists. God's creation of the universe, however, is not out of that which already exists, but is rather out of nothing. This is precisely why God's logical (or chronological, as in your philosophically loose rendering of it) knowledge of the universe is an untenable proposition...for how can God have knowledge of that which doesn't exist? If God is to have knowledge of something, it must exist (for it's obtuse to say that God knows no-thing...). Therefore, in order to say that God has eternal knowledge of the universe is necessarily to posit an understanding of the universe that has essential existence with eternal nature and being of God.



That's tautological, unless you are going to admit that there was a possibility of God "conjuring" a plan that is not in keeping with God's nature? What an absurd thought that is.



This doesn't answer the challenge I raised whatsoever. Your bloviating doesn't intersect the serious philosophical issues I've raised regarding your position.

Actually, I think you're the one bloviating here. You seem to be overly impressed with your own philosophical ramblings, and wish to look down your nose at those who don't seem to "get" your ramblings. As if you knew anything substantial of such things. I'll stick with God's Word, and let Him illuminate my mind as to what He wishes me to know.

 

[GillDouglas]

Actually, I think you're the one bloviating here. You seem to be overly impressed with your own philosophical ramblings, and wish to look down your nose at those who don't seem to "get" your ramblings. As if you knew anything substantial of such things. I'll stick with God's Word, and let Him illuminate my mind as to what He wishes me to know.

He does use big and fancy words, you've got to give him that!

 

[sdowney717]

Jeremiah 31 teaches that those God turns, they then repent. So God must be the first mover to grant repentance, else they do not repent.

18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Even under the overwhelming rebuke and judgement of God in Revelations, men refuse to repent of their own will.
Repentance is God's gift which if granted that they turn about, people will demonstrate repentance. Neither does God's kindness lead wicked men to repentance as Roman 2 says, they store up wrath by refusing God's kindness, only those whose hearts are circumcised without hands repent. Only Godly induced sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation not to be regretted.

Revelation 9:20
But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

Revelation 9:21
And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9
And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Revelation 16:11
They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

The sorrow God produces in a person leads them to repentance, this is not from or originating of themselves.
2 Corinthians 7:9-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.