Calvinism, explained.

[Rick Otto]

Are you changing the subject?

How does the New Covenant permit you to justly and righteously hate?

Hate sin?

 

[Rick Otto]

Okay sdowney, correlate the above passages you gave with this passage -

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I will ask again, do you hate, pursue with hatred, and detest your father, mother, brothers, sisters, wife and children? I have no idea why you won't answer. Are you really a man filled with hatred towards others? Did you know murder is predicated upon hatred?

I will give you this passage also -

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So please not only tell me, but everyone else on this thread, do you hate your brother?

Yes & No, depending on context for sense of meaning.

 

[Rick Otto]

I wonder if anyone can make sense of predestination in light of these texts. Since God predestined 'everything', why did He predestine that which he hates?

Out of necessity?
Distinctions require contrast.
You ask great questions!
A one size fits all answer for why God does anything is Romans 9:22-23

 

[tulipbee]

'If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.' It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is 'Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

 

[Aldebaran]

'If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.' It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is 'Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

I wonder how CH Spurgeon would explain the statement below if a person has neither will nor power:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

 

[sdowney717]

I wonder how CH Spurgeon would explain the statement below if a person has neither will nor power:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

This is how I would explain that.
The invitation is to all, the gospel has gone out to the entire world, but not all have willing ears to hear.
Those that do respond have been taught by God to come to Christ., they are the elect.
ONLY those who are 'of God' then really do hear God's words.
Christ is actually speaking to His elect whom God knew beforehand.

Would Christ contradict His own self in what He says?
Here are more of Christ's words.
John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

John 6
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Here in John 6:64, the reason people do not believe in Christ, is they have not been granted by God to know Christ.
Your flesh profits nothing in establishing a saving relationship with God.
You do not come to Christ on your own power, to Him you are drawn by God. All those so drawn come to Christ and are saved.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hate sin?

Maybe go back and see what the reply was about. That would be a good way to know the context of the reply.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is how I would explain that.
The invitation is to all, the gospel has gone out to the entire world, but not all have willing ears to hear.
Those that do respond have been taught by God to come to Christ., they are the elect.
ONLY those who are 'of God' then really do hear God's words.
Christ is actually speaking to His elect whom God knew beforehand.

Would Christ contradict His own self in what He says?
Here are more of Christ's words.
John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

John 6
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Here in John 6:64, the reason people do not believe in Christ, is they have not been granted by God to know Christ.
Your flesh profits nothing in establishing a saving relationship with God.
You do not come to Christ on your own power, to Him you are drawn by God. All those so drawn come to Christ and are saved.

So the person who is praying in the hospital as their loved one is on their deathbead has been called by Christ to come to Him? In prayer? Then they are saved because they have been drawn, because you say no one would come to God on their own.

Please explain how your theology works in this situation?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes & No, depending on context for sense of meaning.

Now that makes it so clear

 

[tulipbee]

I wonder how CH Spurgeon would explain the statement below if a person has neither will nor power:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

You ought to give God credit for willing his children to come to Him. I have no choice but to give him credit and total depravity kept me from saving myself by cooperation. The bible has a way of saying you should but you really can't.

 

[EmSw]

'If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.' It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is 'Alpha and Omega' in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

The Lord provides for all men, good things through heaven, while hell provides man the substance to love himself and the world. These two forces operating in opposition gives man two courses from which to choose, thus forming his character.

If man does not freely choose between the two as of himself, then he cannot appropriate any good to himself. He becomes a stone which cannot act of itself. If man is any way forced or acts in any involuntary manner, his evil will maintain its hold on him, for the evil in man vehemently opposes any attempt at coercion.

Only when man freely chooses good from heaven, does he make it his own. This freedom is fiercely protected by the Lord.

 

[Aldebaran]

You ought to give God credit for willing his children to come to Him. I have no choice but to give him credit and total depravity kept me from saving myself by cooperation. The bible has a way of saying you should but you really can't.

He draws you to Him, but you can always decide to pull back. He can stand at the door and knock, but you can refuse to answer.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Here in John 6:64, the reason people do not believe in Christ, is they have not been granted by God to know Christ.
Your flesh profits nothing in establishing a saving relationship with God.
You do not come to Christ on your own power, to Him you are drawn by God. All those so drawn come to Christ and are saved.

That does not explain why people do not believe in Christ.

This is the biggest pile of sugar I've ever read.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You ought to give God credit for willing his children to come to Him. I have no choice but to give him credit and total depravity kept me from saving myself by cooperation. The bible has a way of saying you should but you really can't.

It's hysterical that the people who feel they are the 'elect' and have no free will are always those who have already been saved. lol. This is definately something that you are taught later to tickle the ears.

 

[Rick Otto]

That does not explain why people do not believe in Christ.

This is the biggest pile of sugar I've ever read.

Lol , you have a way with words.

 

[Rick Otto]

It's hysterical that the people who feel they are the 'elect' and have no free will are always those who have already been saved. lol. This is definately something that you are taught later to tickle the ears.

You sound a little... defensive.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It's hysterical that the people who feel they are the 'elect' and have no free will are always those who have already been saved. lol. This is definately something that you are taught later to tickle the ears.

Who else would feel that they are the elect but the elect who have been saved and therefore have the Holy Spirit to confirm their current status to them? What you say is not well thought out.

I'm not sure what you mean by the elect not having free will. You've been corrected on that many times it seems. So have many others here and they keep making the same mistake.

Or is it a mistake? Quite likely in many cases it is a purposeful misrepresentation of what Reformed doctrine teaches. Nothing new in that of course as we have observed numerous times here in the forum.

According to the scriptures the only ones who do have completely free will are the elect believers in their new nature.

Every believer is, as you say, "definitely" taught of God after they believe through the scriptures - among other ways.

Yes - it does tickle the ears. It is a very comforting doctrine to know that we are kept by God just as we were elected by God before the foundation of the world.

The reason the doctrine has been given to the church is for comfort in times of trial.

 

[tulipbee]

LOTS purposeful misrepresentation of what Reformed doctrine teaches goes on here.

 

[EmSw]

LOTS purposeful misrepresentation of what Reformed doctrine teaches goes on here.

And which division of Reformed belief is giving us the truth?

 

[sdowney717]

Who else would feel that they are the elect but the elect who have been saved and therefore have the Holy Spirit to confirm their current status to them? What you say is not well thought out.

I'm not sure what you mean by the elect not having free will. You've been corrected on that many times it seems. So have many others here and they keep making the same mistake.

Or is it a mistake? Quite likely in many cases it is a purposeful misrepresentation of what Reformed doctrine teaches. Nothing new in that of course as we have observed numerous times here in the forum.

According to the scriptures the only ones who do have completely free will are the elect believers in their new nature.

Every believer is, as you say, "definitely" taught of God after they believe through the scriptures - among other ways.

Yes - it does tickle the ears. It is a very comforting doctrine to know that we are kept by God just as we were elected by God before the foundation of the world.

The reason the doctrine has been given to the church is for comfort in times of trial.

Yes, If Christ makes you free, you will truly be free.
He said that to the unbelieving jews who were slaves of sin and had Satan as their father.
If Christ does not make you free, then you are not free, you are bound to your evil sin nature in eternal death. You can not make yourself free of that, can the leopard change it's spots? And those who are dead, do not know the Truth, indeed they can not know, since it is spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man cannot know God and Christ, to be a natural man is enmity with God. Christian's though are supernatural men, otherwise they are not His.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

And christian's are also freed from death due to their sin, since your made right with God through Christ's eternal work for you.

Interesting, but think, when your talking to unsaved people, you are talking to those who are dead.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

And this
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead truly know nothing about life in the Spirit, but they do make up a lot of stories.