Who then can be saved?

[fhansen]

No, your rejecting the truth and you can't find a single scripture to support your Arminian "saved by works" version of the gospel.
I have asked you to find a single verse to support it, but you have consistently failed to find any. It's not good enough to claim that such scriptures exist and then refuse to identify them. That doesn't help your cause at all, it actually does great damage to it

It's not saved by works, it's saved by cooperation with God's work. I've provided plenty of Scripture-but you've dismissed it-or found a way around it.

 

[Dan1988]

You did specifically refer to yourself as a Calvinist.


So my claim that you follow 16th century theologians is in fact true according to your own words.

I used the term "Calvinist" to distinguish myself from you Arminians. Since every single Christian is either a Calvinist or Arminian, there is not third option. I have asked you to identify this third option a year ago and you failed miserably because you know there is no third option.

Nobody can claim to be a Christian, because every Christian is distinguished and identified by the gospel they believe. You obviously believe that Jacob Arminius, interpreted the gospel correctly, with his "saved by works" version of the gospel. And I believe that John Calvin, interrelated the gospel correctly by proclaiming that "we are saved by grace"

Don't even think about trying to mix the two gospels together to create a "hybrid version of the gospel". It just doesn't work, you are either saved "by grace or "by works", as in keeping the law, take you pick.

 

[Dan1988]

And I’ve already told you that I believe in predestination. But what Jesus and the apostles never taught is 4 of the 5 Tulip doctrines, with the exception of predestination. All 4 of them can be refuted with the following passages.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God has patience with the vessels of destruction.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God’s patience with the unrepentant is leading them to repentance.

“Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭33‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again God doesn’t want the wicked to die, He wants them to repent.

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again God doesn’t want anyone to perish, He wants all to repent.

These passages contradict the first 4 doctrines of Tulip.

The passages don't contradict the first 4 doctrines of T.U.L.I.P at all, and I will demonstrate that to you. What is apparent to me, is that your Arminian version of the gospel can't stand up when we apply the whole counsel of God to it.

I'm not sure how Romans 9:22 supports your view that God is patient with those not chosen for salvation. As if He's waiting for them to stop hating him and start loving Him instead.

God's sovereign right to use both the "vessels of wrath" (those not chosen for salvation) and the "vessels of mercy" (the elect) to display his attributes of wrath and mercy. The verse emphasizes that God's patience with those prepared for destruction serves to magnify his glory shown through those prepared for glory. This verse speaks about God's absolute sovereignty, with the final outcome being a demonstration of his power and righteousness.

Ezekiel 33:11 was spoken to the House of Israel, in other word "Gods elect" or Gods chosen people if you like. But no such promise was ever made to those (not chosen for salvation).

To suggest that God wants to save the wicked, just because He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, is to twist what God has said to make it fit your Arminian version of the gospel. But the truth, you will never find a singe verse to support your opinion.

Again your perverted Arminian interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 is false because it does not apply to those who were not chosen for salvation.
See this is what happens when you place your faith in the interpretation of fallen men. If you actually understood the verse and it's context, you would know that it was spoken to saved people, in other words "believers" or "Gods elect" or Gods chosen people" or "the Israel of God" or "the Church", all the same people described in different ways. But the reprobate are never ever included in any of those promises or exhortations.

Please god back and read the whole chapter of 2 Peter 3 and you will find that it was spoken to believers who were wondering why God is taking so long to save all of His elect.
They were told that God is patient, because He is waiting for every single one of His elect to be added to the Body of Christ, before He destroys this world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward US!!!, not willing that any should perish.

Who do you think the "US" is referring to, your religious denomination has told you it applies to every single devil. But that's not what Gods Word reveals. Instead it reveals that it applies to the elect of God only.

The passages you misinterpreted all support TULIP 100%

 

[Dan1988]

So again you just ignored scripture. Not surprising. I quoted Ezekiel 33:11 and you just ignore it.

“Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭33‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You claim that this verse doesn’t refute your theology but you refuse to explain how it doesn’t contradict your theology because you can’t. So you just ignore it so that you don’t have to go thru the trouble of trying to explain something that you can’t explain.

Ezekiel 33:11 is an exhortation that applies to Gods Elect today, just as much as it did to Gods elect in Ezekiel's day. God still exhorts His elect to turn from our evil today. It's not a condition for salvation, it's merely and exhortation to resist evil temptation.

 

[Dan1988]

Oh, maybe you’re not familiar with 1 Peter 1:1-2?

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Mute point again, we have already established that your "saved by works" version of the gospel is not in line with what Gods Word has to say about it.

Sorry but God did not look down to corridors of time, to see Johnny boy, helping the old lady cross the street and decide to put his name in the book of life due to his good works.

You haven't explained how your version of the gospel, supports this idea that God chose to save His elect by looking into His time machine. There's nothing there to support that opinion.

 

[Dan1988]

No, the reality is that YOU CAN’T UNDERSTAND IT, not me. I have no problem understanding it at all because in my theology man is responsible for his disobedience. In your theology God is responsible for it. That’s why you can’t explain Genesis 6:5-6 and Ezekiel 33:11, because you’d have to set aside your doctrines in order to understand them but you’re not willing to do that because the scriptures take a backseat to your doctrines. Your doctrines are dictating your interpretation of scripture instead of the scriptures dictating your doctrines.

Gods Word proves that your theology is based on false doctrine. You need to reject half of what God has said, to hold on to your private interpretations of Gods Word.

Those of us who know the truth of the gospel, know that salvation is of the Lord. And not of man as you claim, we know that salvation is by "grace" and not your false "saved by works" version of the gospel.

 

[Dan1988]

It's not saved by works, it's saved by cooperation with God's work. I've provided plenty of Scripture-but you've dismissed it-or found a way around it.

The "saved by cooperating with Gods work" version of the gospel is not found in the Bible. It was invented by Jacob Arminius.

Any other interpretation of the gospel, apart from "saved by grace" is a "saved by works" version. This version, claims that Jesus didn't complete the work of redemption on the cross, and you need to take up the slack and finish the job He failed to finish.

The problem with your theory, is that just before Jesus died on the cross He said "it is finished". But you say, "no Jesus, you failed to finish the work of salvation, so I need to step in and help you finish the job". I believe this theory is an abomination in Gods sight.

 

[fhansen]

The "saved by cooperating with Gods work" version of the gospel is not found in the Bible. It was invented by Jacob Arminius.

Arminius only rediscovered and revived something of which Christians received at the beginning and taught for the 15 centuries before he was born.

Any other interpretation of the gospel, apart from "saved by grace" is a "saved by works" version. This version, claims that Jesus didn't complete the work of redemption on the cross, and you need to take up the slack and finish the job He failed to finish

True Christianity has always taught that it’s impossible for man to be saved apart from grace; he’s lost, after all, and wouldn’t even know where to look for God to begin with. But that grace can be resisted; man must cooperate with it. He must, for example, put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit in order to live, Rom 8:12-14.

The problem with your theory, is that just before Jesus died on the cross He said "it is finished". But you say, "no Jesus, you failed to finish the work of salvation, so I need to step in and help you finish the job". I believe this theory is an abomination in Gods sight.

It was finished-Jesus accomplished what He came to do, the sacrifice of His life for the sins of the world. Now…the world must care; we must be convicted and repent and walk with God the Spirit now whom Jesus sends to those who turn to Him and believe-and then continue to do so. This is Christianity at its most basic.

God's not asking us to turn of our brains- and He doesn't force us to become some sort of Christian robots, either. He informs us of His will by revelation and empowers us to obey it by His grace.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I used the term "Calvinist" to distinguish myself from you Arminians. Since every single Christian is either a Calvinist or Arminian, there is not third option. I have asked you to identify this third option a year ago and you failed miserably because you know there is no third option.

Nobody can claim to be a Christian, because every Christian is distinguished and identified by the gospel they believe. You obviously believe that Jacob Arminius, interpreted the gospel correctly, with his "saved by works" version of the gospel. And I believe that John Calvin, interrelated the gospel correctly by proclaiming that "we are saved by grace"

Don't even think about trying to mix the two gospels together to create a "hybrid version of the gospel". It just doesn't work, you are either saved "by grace or "by works", as in keeping the law, take you pick.

What works did Jacob Arminius claim that man is saved by?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not sure how Romans 9:22 supports your view that God is patient with those not chosen for salvation. As if He's waiting for them to stop hating him and start loving Him instead.

God's sovereign right to use both the "vessels of wrath" (those not chosen for salvation) and the "vessels of mercy" (the elect) to display his attributes of wrath and mercy. The verse emphasizes that God's patience with those prepared for destruction serves to magnify his glory shown through those prepared for glory. This verse speaks about God's absolute sovereignty, with the final outcome being a demonstration of his power and righteousness.

That final outcome of God choosing certain vessels for glory and certain vessels for destruction comes AFTER Him having patience on them which is why the elect are chosen according to His foreknowledge. And here’s the real difference between our two opposing positions, in my position the vessels of wrath are capable of repentance making them responsible for their disobedience. In your version they are incapable of repentance because God has not enabled them to obey which makes God responsible for their disobedience since He is the One who has created them in this fallen state unable to comply with His commandments. The scriptures make it clear that God does not want them to be disobedient since He grieved in His heart that man was so wicked and marvels at their disobedience. It simply isn’t logical that God would grieve and marvel over man’s disobedience if it was something He actually wants them to do. It’s just simple common sense.

Ezekiel 33:11 was spoken to the House of Israel, in other word "Gods elect" or Gods chosen people if you like. But no such promise was ever made to those (not chosen for salvation).

To suggest that God wants to save the wicked, just because He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, is to twist what God has said to make it fit your Arminian version of the gospel. But the truth, you will never find a singe verse to support your opinion.

The house of Israel is God’s elect? The house of Israel is composed of both believers and unbelievers. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram were Jews, they were even Levite priests who were condemned by God in Numbers 16:32. Then you have all of the Jews that witnessed God’s miracles in Egypt who weren’t allowed to enter into the promised land because of their unbelief. Saul is another example, then you have several thousands of Jews who worshipped Idols for centuries, the Pharisees, Judas Iscariot and countless others. To say that the house of Israel is only composed of the elect is a demonstration of complete ignorance of the entire Bible. If all of these people I just mentioned were “God’s elect” then why were they condemned?

Again your perverted Arminian interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 is false because it does not apply to those who were not chosen for salvation.
See this is what happens when you place your faith in the interpretation of fallen men. If you actually understood the verse and it's context, you would know that it was spoken to saved people, in other words "believers" or "Gods elect" or Gods chosen people" or "the Israel of God" or "the Church", all the same people described in different ways. But the reprobate are never ever included in any of those promises or exhortations.

Please god back and read the whole chapter of 2 Peter 3 and you will find that it was spoken to believers who were wondering why God is taking so long to save all of His elect.
They were told that God is patient, because He is waiting for every single one of His elect to be added to the Body of Christ, before He destroys this world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward US!!!, not willing that any should perish.

Who do you think the "US" is referring to, your religious denomination has told you it applies to every single devil. But that's not what Gods Word reveals. Instead it reveals that it applies to the elect of God only.

Your problem is you don’t include all of the information given in scripture and you have to twist the passages to say the exact opposite of what is actually written. In Romans 9:22 why is God being patient with the vessels of destruction? Can you answer that? I can.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ezekiel 33:11 is an exhortation that applies to Gods Elect today, just as much as it did to Gods elect in Ezekiel's day. God still exhorts His elect to turn from our evil today. It's not a condition for salvation, it's merely and exhortation to resist evil temptation.

So what about Ezekiel 18? The entire chapter repeatedly explains the same message over and over in detail. In Ezekiel 18 God specifically states that ALL SOULS ARE HIS. Then He says the exact same thing that He says in Ezekiel 33:11 in the context of ALL SOULS, NOT just the house of Israel. The context is that the soul of the father and the soul of the son belong to Him and the soul who sins will die. And if the father is righteous but the son is wicked the father will not be punished for the sins of the son and vice versa. And verse 23 says the exact same thing as Ezekiel 33:11.

“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And in verse 29 “God’s elect” (the house of Israel) says…

“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Furthermore there were numerous Gentiles who also found favor with God in the Old Testament. Able, Enoch, Enoch, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Japheth, Job, Lot, Melchizedek, Abimelech, Hagar, Rahab, Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, I mean I could go on, none of these people were Jews. These people found favor with God because they humbled and subjected themselves to Him. So Ezekiel 33:11 obviously applied to these people as well. Nothing about finding favor with God had changed throughout the entire Old Testament.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Mute point again, we have already established that your "saved by works" version of the gospel is not in line with what Gods Word has to say about it.

Sorry but God did not look down to corridors of time, to see Johnny boy, helping the old lady cross the street and decide to put his name in the book of life due to his good works.

You haven't explained how your version of the gospel, supports this idea that God chose to save His elect by looking into His time machine. There's nothing there to support that opinion.

Then by all means please do explain why we are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Gods Word proves that your theology is based on false doctrine. You need to reject half of what God has said, to hold on to your private interpretations of Gods Word.

Those of us who know the truth of the gospel, know that salvation is of the Lord. And not of man as you claim, we know that salvation is by "grace" and not your false "saved by works" version of the gospel.

Yet Genesis 6:5-6 completely escapes you, you can’t explain why God grieved in His heart because man was so wicked.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Gods Word proves that your theology is based on false doctrine. You need to reject half of what God has said, to hold on to your private interpretations of Gods Word.

Those of us who know the truth of the gospel, know that salvation is of the Lord. And not of man as you claim, we know that salvation is by "grace" and not your false "saved by works" version of the gospel.

I challenge you to quote where I ever said anything that remotely supports your accusation that I teach a saved by works salvation. If you can’t then I suggest you stop spreading lies about me.

 

[Daniel Carlton]

Too bad they only went back to the 5th century. Personally I think the 1st & 2nd century theologians had a better idea of what the apostles taught because they were actually disciples of the apostles and disciples of the apostle’s disciples. Don’t get me wrong they had the right idea to get out of the Roman church but they still ended up with a heretical theology.

No sir, back to the first, second and third century. A time when the fathers unanimously believed in PSA, repentance of sins and against idolatry.