What is your theory, belief around Foreknowledge?

[SuperCow]

I STATED you can make choices, they just are not free-will choices because your nature is not free (free meaning redeemed in this discussion).

Your sentence is self-contradictory. (Regardless of whether the word is free or redeemed) If you can make a choice, then you have free will. If you do not have free will, then the choice is made for you. You may think you made a choice, but it is an illusion because your choice was predestined.

 

[A New Dawn]

The citings are there. Sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19

But you're doing exactly that, against Adam, God's son and in the lineage of Jesus

In complete disregard for the adversary of us all

Classic void in positions

Sins are not counted against believers because that is the stipulation God gave. “That whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Everyone else is dead in their sins and does not receive everlasting life.

 

[A New Dawn]

Your sentence is self-contradictory. (Regardless of whether the word is free or redeemed) If you can make a choice, then you have free will. If you do not have free will, then the choice is made for you. You may think you made a choice, but it is an illusion because your choice was predestined.

If you are not redeemed, you cannot make a redeemed choice. That’s the whole reason we need a savior. IF we, as non-believers could choose to not sin and follow the commandments God gave us, then Christ’s suffering and death was in vain. If that’s what you believe, then God have mercy on your soul.

 

[SuperCow]

You merely use (nonexisting) freewill to blame and accuse Adam and Eve.

Yes, I accuse Adam and Eve because the Bible clearly does as well. Romans 5:12, 1 Timothy 2:14.

Where is your judgment of this fact happening to them both? Mark 4:15

Why is the perp missing from your position?

If you are referring to the serpent, it was punished by God as well. Genesis 3:14
And assuming Satan controlled or was the serpent (the two common interpretations), he is condemned as well. (Revelation 12:9, 20:2)

Your reference to Mark 4:15 is irrelevant in context to this discussion, because it is clearly a parable, and a parable is not literal. Mark 4:13

We know from scripture that all have sin, Romans 3:9, and that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8

No argument there, but the fact that it is impossible to resist every sinful mistake we may make throughout our lives, does not in any way deny our ability to strive to resist sin, which is a choice. It's like a muscle. You are required to do 100 pushups. At 37, you tire out and fail, because you just can't do it anymore. That doesn't mean that you didn't have the choice (free will) to do the first 37, or that you can't try again the next day and make it to 40 or 45. You could have rejected the entire task at the first pushup, but you didn't. And the more you try, the stronger you get. And the more you reject the task, the weaker you get. Adam & Eve quit on the first pushup.

WHO then is the perp? Adam and Eve? Adam was God's son. When anyone blames Adam they also point directly to Adam's Father. Did God bear a faulty child? Will God burn His child alive forever or eternally annhilate that child? I think NOT.

OR might it just be fair to say that we are all engaged in the judgments of the TEMPTER and his unseen minions?

Eph. 6:11-12

God did not bear a faulty child. The child chose to be at fault. If Adam could not choose then God would be at fault, or at the very least the grand purpose as told in the Bible would be contradictory.

 

[SuperCow]

If you are not redeemed, you cannot make a redeemed choice. That’s the whole reason we need a savior. IF we, as non-believers could choose to not sin and follow the commandments God gave us, then Christ’s suffering and death was in vain. If that’s what you believe, then God have mercy on your soul.

What is a redeemed choice? And what is the difference between a redeemed choice and a regular choice? I have a choice to go to church or go to a brothel. (Or do a million other things.) If I choose to go to church and pray is that a redeemed choice? If I help someone in need is that rather than ignore that person entirely a redeemed choice? Can you give me an example of a choice I cannot make, not because of some laws of physics, my physical abilities, or a paradox, but because that choice is a redeemed choice?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yes, I accuse Adam and Eve because the Bible clearly does as well. Romans 5:12, 1 Timothy 2:14.

Uh, no. It's only because your position utterly fails to see their sin is no different than yours, mine and everyone's, "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Zero account for the unseen perp.

If you are referring to the serpent, it was punished by God as well. Genesis 3:14
And assuming Satan controlled or was the serpent (the two common interpretations), he is condemned as well. (Revelation 12:9, 20:2)

No question. What did God say to the serpent? "Because thou hast done this..."

Your reference to Mark 4:15 is irrelevant in context to this discussion, because it is clearly a parable, and a parable is not literal. Mark 4:13

God's Words apply to everyone. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Deut. 8:3

Another blind spot marked out in your positions

No argument there, but the fact that it is impossible to resist every sinful mistake

We don't make the tempters decisions in us

we may make throughout our lives, does not in any way deny our ability to strive to resist sin, which is a choice.

Circular. You claim sin is eradicated by choices. That's never true. No one has ever became sinless for even a nanosecond by choices

Mark up another positional void

It's like a muscle. You are required to do 100 pushups. At 37, you tire out and fail, because you just can't do it anymore. That doesn't mean that you didn't have the choice (free will) to do the first 37, or that you can't try again the next day and make it to 40 or 45. You could have rejected the entire task at the first pushup, but you didn't. And the more you try, the stronger you get. And the more you reject the task, the weaker you get. Adam & Eve quit on the first pushup.

If you think you're a better sinner, again a falsehood. Romans 3:9 puts everyone on equal sinning ground

Voids never add up

God did not bear a faulty child. The child chose to be at fault. If Adam could not choose then God would be at fault, or at the very least the grand purpose as told in the Bible would be contradictory.

Adam made no choices for the devil in his own sorry hide

Beyond 3 positional strikes, and all misses

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Sins are not counted against believers because that is the stipulation God gave.

But you want to count sins against everyone else. Got it!

“That whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Everyone else is dead in their sins and does not receive everlasting life.

Both statements apply to everyone

Here's the track: The evil present in NO ONE is getting off the hook because sin is of the devil.

 

[SuperCow]

Uh, no. It's only because your position utterly fails to see their sin is no different than yours, mine and everyone's, "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Of course their sin is the same as ours. The only difference is they could have chosen to not sin at all. We only sin, because we inherited weakness genetically from Adam, which, together without our own unique circumstances, causes us to be imperfect. But our imperfection doesn't mean we have no choice. It means we will sometimes choose the wrong choice.

Zero account for the unseen perp.

Nonsense post.

God's Words apply to everyone. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Deut. 8:3

Stating the obvious. That doesn't mean that a parable has a literal meaning.

We don't make the tempters decisions in us

But we make the choice whether to give into the temptation.

Circular. You claim sin is eradicated by choices. That's never true. No one has ever became sinless for even a nanosecond by choices

Mark up another positional void

I said no such thing. Sin is not eradicated, except through God. The second point is plain wrong. I may sin every day, but that doesn't mean at any particular instant that I don't have a choice whether to sin or not.

If you think you're a better sinner, again a falsehood. Romans 3:9 puts everyone on equal sinning ground

Voids never add up

We are all sinners and fall short of God's ideal. But if you set a pattern of sin, it is harder not to sin. If you set a pattern of repentence, it becomes easier. That has nothing to do with being a better or worse sinner.

Adam made no choices for the devil in his own sorry hide

Beyond 3 positional strikes, and all misses

The only way this sentence makes sense is if you believe in predetermination and fatalism. If Adam and Eve had no choice, then they were condemned by God to fail long before they were tempted by the serpent.

 

[A New Dawn]

What is a redeemed choice? And what is the difference between a redeemed choice and a regular choice? I have a choice to go to church or go to a brothel. (Or do a million other things.) If I choose to go to church and pray is that a redeemed choice? If I help someone in need is that rather than ignore that person entirely a redeemed choice? Can you give me an example of a choice I cannot make, not because of some laws of physics, my physical abilities, or a paradox, but because that choice is a redeemed choice?

A redeemed choice, as I have repeatedly clarified on this thread, is a choice made from the position of being redeemed by Jesus Christ. That is in contrast to our position of being unredeemed (fallen), from which we can only make choices from our unredeemed nature. An example that I gave earlier was about someone who was a slave making the only kinds of choices a slave can make. He can choose to be compliant or he can choose rebellion, for example, but what he CAN’T do is choose to be free. That is a choice that is not available to him. That’s the way it is in the spiritual realm, also. When we are unbelievers we just can’t choose to believe because belief/faith is a gift given to us at the advent of our salvation by Christ. We can make other choices, but not ones related to salvation.

Can you make a choice to go to church from an unredeemed position? Yes, lots of people go to church for lots of reasons.

Can you help someone out of an innate sense of right-ness without being redeemed? Yes because God has graced the world with common grace and all the world attests to His goodness. And lots of unredeemed people do countless acts of grace and mercy because it is the right thing to do.

I just have to say that doing things isn’t what gets you into heaven. It is God’s supernatural work on your heart, writing His laws onto your heart and forgiving your sins, granting you saving faith that gets you into heaven. It is nothing you do or choose.

 

[SuperCow]

A redeemed choice, as I have repeatedly clarified on this thread, is a choice made from the position of being redeemed by Jesus Christ. That is in contrast to our position of being unredeemed (fallen), from which we can only make choices from our unredeemed nature. An example that I gave earlier was about someone who was a slave making the only kinds of choices a slave can make. He can choose to be compliant or he can choose rebellion, for example, but what he CAN’T do is choose to be free. That is a choice that is not available to him. That’s the way it is in the spiritual realm, also. When we are unbelievers we just can’t choose to believe because belief/faith is a gift given to us at the advent of our salvation by Christ. We can make other choices, but not ones related to salvation.

There is no such thing as a redeemed choice or non-redeemed choice. There are only choices, which may help us or hurt our chances at redemption. The choices available are those that God allows the world to present us with. If we are restricted from certain choices, that is wholely irrelevant to the spirit of this thread. If we are restricted from all choices, or the idea of choice is illusory because of foreknowledge, then God is responsible for everything that has ever happened, because he knew it would happen at the beginning.

Can you make a choice to go to church from an unredeemed position? Yes, lots of people go to church for lots of reasons.

Can you help someone out of an innate sense of right-ness without being redeemed? Yes because God has graced the world with common grace and all the world attests to His goodness. And lots of unredeemed people do countless acts of grace and mercy because it is the right thing to do.

Not my point. There is no way to know that you are redeemed or unredeemed. You may believe that your baptism and pious love for God makes you redeemed, but you don't know. Also, you don't know if someone is going to church because they are searching to be closer to God, or for some other reason. The reason they are going is just as much a choice they make as is the physical act of going to church. They choose both. Maybe you only love God, because you fear eternal judgement if you don't, not because you actually feel God is just. Then your reasons for faith may is more self-serving than a criminal who truly realizes on death row that his life has been completely wrong.

I just have to say that doing things isn’t what gets you into heaven. It is God’s supernatural work on your heart, writing His laws onto your heart and forgiving your sins, granting you saving faith that gets you into heaven. It is nothing you do or choose.

Not arguing with this, but when does God decide to write his laws onto your heart and forgive your sins? Is it when I get the epiphany of faith and choose to serve him, or does God decide who gets faith and when, and only then will I become faithful and want to serve him?

 

[A New Dawn]

There is no such thing as a redeemed choice or non-redeemed choice. There are only choices, which may help us or hurt our chances at redemption. The choices available are those that God allows the world to present us with. If we are restricted from certain choices, that is wholely irrelevant to the spirit of this thread. If we are restricted from all choices, or the idea of choice is illusory because of foreknowledge, then God is responsible for everything that has ever happened, because he knew it would happen at the beginning.

Not my point. There is no way to know that you are redeemed or unredeemed. You may believe that your baptism and pious love for God makes you redeemed, but you don't know. Also, you don't know if someone is going to church because they are searching to be closer to God, or for some other reason. The reason they are going is just as much a choice they make as is the physical act of going to church. They choose both. Maybe you only love God, because you fear eternal judgement if you don't, not because you actually feel God is just. Then your reasons for faith may is more self-serving than a criminal who truly realizes on death row that his life has been completely wrong.

Not arguing with this, but when does God decide to write his laws onto your heart and forgive your sins? Is it when I get the epiphany of faith and choose to serve him, or does God decide who gets faith and when, and only then will I become faithful and want to serve him?

If you are redeemed you have an unfailing love for Christ. It’s what happens during regeneration. God replaces your heart of stone with a heart of flesh and pours His love into it, and aligns your will to His. And, yes, that is when you will become faithful and want to serve Him.

Salvation is God’s to give, not anyone’s to take. God is the author and finisher of your faith. Read John 6 to see the process Christ sets out regarding salvation.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Of course their sin is the same as ours. The only difference is they could have chosen to not sin at all. We only sin, because we inherited weakness genetically from Adam, which, together without our own unique circumstances, causes us to be imperfect. But our imperfection doesn't mean we have no choice. It means we will sometimes choose the wrong choice.



Nonsense post.



Stating the obvious. That doesn't mean that a parable has a literal meaning.



But we make the choice whether to give into the temptation.

The general point of this entire sight, that of the tempter within ALL people other than God Himself in Christ, is that there is more than one will in operation. Technically there are 3 wills in operation. God/man and devil(s)

So any notions that the person is the only decider can't even be remotely true. Even if deciding not to sin, we're still sinners because of the presence of the tempter in our own clouded minds. Most can't even perceive this is the case, even though it's broadcast via every evil lawless thought inside our own heads.

I said no such thing. Sin is not eradicated, except through God.

There is no except. God didn't make anyone sinless in this present life.

The person, the child of God is technically sinless, BUT the tempter and his own are not. This is the line between the parties. But they both walk in the same pair of shoes.

The second point is plain wrong. I may sin every day, but that doesn't mean at any particular instant that I don't have a choice whether to sin or not.

You make no choices for the adversary. It's never just you operating in your own head. The fact that you even think you make a choice means there are BAD CHOICES in play in your head.

The real question is, WHY are those choices there to have to choose from and the reality is we all have EVIL present within us via our adversary.

We are all sinners and fall short of God's ideal. But if you set a pattern of sin, it is harder not to sin.

We are never in a state of not sinning or sinlessness to begin with. Our choices never made anyone sinless.

If you set a pattern of repentence, it becomes easier. That has nothing to do with being a better or worse sinner.

We have dominion over sin because we know there is a continual internal battle going on. But we don't dominate over what we claim to not have i.e. sin. The thought, word or deed of sin is ALL defiling and we are all defiled by the mere thought. Mark 7:21-23

Unfortunately believers get suckered into various notions that if they don't do X sin they are then the better sinner and better than the unsaved. That's the first step into hypocrisy. In full blown hypocrisy we need to look at the religious leaders of Jesus' day, as they exemplify the works of Satanic HYPOCRISY "in the temple" of their own bodies.

The only way this sentence makes sense is if you believe in predetermination and fatalism.

We are all predestined to do both good and evil. Satan and his messengers are predestined to the LoF. Every believer if they thought about it for just a tad, would see predestination is simply a fact depending on how it's applied.

We are all predestined to die in the flesh because of sin, until the last harvest of mankind when all people will be separated from our enemies, unseen, as God has predestined that to transpire.

If Adam and Eve had no choice, then they were condemned by God to fail long before they were tempted by the serpent.

Yes, the dust bodies of both of them were never the long term goal of God. They had no choice to not be sinners and "they" were not the only players in the drama.

I'd consider this present life and the history of mankind more about the judgment of these parties being allowed by God to play out in reality, which we are all predestined to have a part in:

Eph. 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We, all of mankind, were always predestined to judge the angels: The wicked angels.

They will ALL be condemned because of what transpired in US ALL

 

[SuperCow]

The general point of this entire sight, that of the tempter within ALL people other than God Himself in Christ, is that there is more than one will in operation. Technically there are 3 wills in operation. God/man and devil(s)

So any notions that the person is the only decider can't even be remotely true. Even if deciding not to sin, we're still sinners because of the presence of the tempter in our own clouded minds. Most can't even perceive this is the case, even though it's broadcast via every evil lawless thought inside our own heads.

I think we're talking past each other in some respects, so let me clarify. I agree that we are all sinners. I believe we are tempted by Satan. I believe that God can influence us beyond our control. I also believe that we can resist temptation. We just cannot do it perfectly. Regardless of how good a person we try to be, we fall short of the ideal.

There is no except. God didn't make anyone sinless in this present life.

The person, the child of God is technically sinless, BUT the tempter and his own are not. This is the line between the parties. But they both walk in the same pair of shoes.

What do you mean "no except". Do you not believe that God can make us sinless if he chooses. If not, then why are we Christians, if not for the hope of a sinless future in whatever form that happens to be. All of us expect to be sinless again once we are resurrected.

And God did make three people sinless. Adam, Eve, and Jesus. Adam and Eve made the choice to sin, and Jesus made the choice not to sin. But Adam and Eve were sinless until they disobeyed God. They could have remained that way if they chose to resist the serpent.

You make no choices for the adversary. It's never just you operating in your own head. The fact that you even think you make a choice means there are BAD CHOICES in play in your head.

So now you are saying that having the temptation in your mind is a sin? So does that make Jesus a sinner, because he was tempted in the wilderness. (Matthew 4) In a similar vein, this would mean that Eve sinned by even responding to the serpent, before she took the fruit.

The real question is, WHY are those choices there to have to choose from and the reality is we all have EVIL present within us via our adversary.

We are never in a state of not sinning or sinlessness to begin with. Our choices never made anyone sinless.

We have dominion over sin because we know there is a continual internal battle going on. But we don't dominate over what we claim to not have i.e. sin. The thought, word or deed of sin is ALL defiling and we are all defiled by the mere thought. Mark 7:21-23

This word soup convolutes the issue. You seem to think I'm saying that having a choice makes it possible to be sinless, which I am not.

Unfortunately believers get suckered into various notions that if they don't do X sin they are then the better sinner and better than the unsaved. That's the first step into hypocrisy. In full blown hypocrisy we need to look at the religious leaders of Jesus' day, as they exemplify the works of Satanic HYPOCRISY "in the temple" of their own bodies.

Again, I explicitly said I don't believe in "degrees" of sin, or the concept of a better or worse sinner. All that matters is the attempt and attitude of the sinner who is trying to make themself better.

We are all predestined to do both good and evil. Satan and his messengers are predestined to the LoF. Every believer if they thought about it for just a tad, would see predestination is simply a fact depending on how it's applied.

We are all predestined to die in the flesh because of sin, until the last harvest of mankind when all people will be separated from our enemies, unseen, as God has predestined that to transpire.

If we are predestined, then why do we preach at all? Predestined means that everything is set in stone. The unbeliever is destined to repent or not repent regardless of what we do. You're misconstruing the term. Yes, we are all predestined to die, but we are not all predestined to repent. And if we are not predestined to repent then God condemns some of us without giving us any chance at redemption.

Yes, the dust bodies of both of them were never the long-term goal of God. They had no choice to not be sinners, and "they" were not the only players in the drama.

I strongly disagree with this. I do not believe in the evil concept that God intended people to sin and die and thereafter picks and chooses who can be redeemed by creating them in a way to ensure they will succeed or fail.

I'd consider this present life and the history of mankind more about the judgment of these parties being allowed by God to play out in reality, which we are all predestined to have a part in:

Eph. 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We, all of mankind, were always predestined to judge the angels: The wicked angels.

They will ALL be condemned because of what transpired in US ALL

If our lives are predestined, then this experiment proves nothing. It's like a Hollywood moviemaker making a crime movie about some real-life person and saying it proves he was guilty. Our actions have no effect on the judgement of the angels who sinned, and according to 2 Peter 4, are already receiving their judgement.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I think we're talking past each other in some respects, so let me clarify. I agree that we are all sinners.

And please allow me to dial this in. The tempter defiles us all via evil lawless thoughts and sins by stealing the Word from our hearts.

This sin is always present within the flesh of everyone i.e. our MINDS contain the oresence of EVIL in the form of the tempter. Active or inactive matters not. Its just there for us all

What this doesn't mean is that it's the PEOPLE yet that evil that is not us does operate in us all.

What do you mean "no except". Do you not believe that God can make us sinless if he chooses.

Not in the present, no. We have been advised by Gods Word of our current status. No one is going to be sinless until Satan and his messengers are sent to the flames.

These are never questions of only people. Whats really happening can not be seen because there are agencies involved that are unseen i.e. devils

If not, then why are we Christians, if not for the hope of a sinless future

See above. The promise of the Gospel IS a new body not subjected to sin, an eternal body. Not this wet dust pile where temptations dwell

in whatever form that happens to be. All of us expect to be sinless again once we are resurrected.

Brilliant deduction

And God did make three people sinless. Adam, Eve, and Jesus.

Nope. Only Jesus was/Is sinless in the flesh

Adam and Eve made the choice to sin,

Your claim is incorrect. Mark 4:15 happened to both Adam and Eve, openly evidenced before they ever took a bite

and Jesus made the choice not to sin.

Uh no. That never happened either. That would actually be a heretical position

Jesus has been and will be Perect Everlasting

Notions that he had to make himself sinless by choosing is nonsense.

But Adam and Eve were sinless until they disobeyed God. They could have remained that way if they chose to resist the serpent.

The bodies of Adam and Eve were inhabited by the tempter immediately after God's first words were spoken to them, ala Mark 4:15

So now you are saying that having the temptation in your mind is a sin?

Absolutely evil lawless thoughts are temptations and these defile everyone with NO exceptions other than God in Christ

So does that make Jesus a sinner, because he was tempted in the wilderness.

Jesus' temptations were never intetnal. Satan had NOTHING in Him

(Matthew 4) In a similar vein, this would mean that Eve sinned by even responding to the serpent, before she took the fruit

You're simply missing the obvious. The TEMPTER sinned in them both and in us all

ALL have sin, Romans 3:9
Sin is of the devil, 1 john 3:8, Mark 4:15

This word soup convolutes the issue. You seem to think I'm saying that having a choice makes it possible to be sinless, which I am not.

The fact that we even have a choice of evil means evil is therein to choose. There is however no option to NOT have evil to choose from. Get it?

As Paul accurately stated, evil was present with him, Romans 17-21, a messenger of Satan and temptation in his own sorry hide, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14

Read it and understand what's going on. Its not about just a person making choices

The tempter is in the pot

Again, I explicitly said I don't believe in "degrees" of sin, or the concept of a better or worse sinner. All that matters is the attempt and attitude of the sinner who is trying to make themself better.

Well lots of people do good. Still doesn't mean we're free of internal evil.

If we are predestined, then why do we preach at all?

We are all engaged in judgements against the devil and hiss messengers, pardon the pun

Predestined means that everything is set in stone.

Yes it is. People are predestined to be saved and the devils are predestined to the LoF

The unbeliever is destined to repent or not repent regardless of what we do.

The unbeliever is blinded by Satan. Some of us are allowed to actually see our present state and speak honestly about it. Most are not.

You're misconstruing the term. Yes, we are all predestined to die, but we are not all predestined to repent.

You should maybe just stop condemning your neighbors and start condemning the tempter in your own flesh. Things might start to clear up some from there

And if we are not predestined to repent then God condemns some of us without giving us any chance at redemption.

You really could be more gracious to people. Anyone, read, anyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7

You just learned some formula that puts unacceptable and unnecessary blockages at heavens gate.

I strongly disagree with this. I do not believe in the evil concept that God intended people to sin

God made the tempter to sin in our temporary dust pile. Sorry to break reality to you in trying to make it othetwise

and die and thereafter picks and chooses who can be redeemed by creating them in a way to ensure they will succeed or fail.

The Savior of mankind saves. Our choices dont save. We do not make God active by our choices. That's just ridiculous

If our lives are predestined, then this experiment proves nothing.

The exercises to condem all evil and sin will assuredly be worth it, no question

It's like a Hollywood moviemaker making a crime movie about some real-life person and saying it proves he was guilty. Our actions have no effect on the judgement of the angels who sinned, and according to 2 Peter 4, are already receiving their judgement.

Your actions are NOT making you sinless because another bad actors is behind the curtain.

Your own mind should WARN you of this incursion if you're a believer.

And if that happens you might even stop making excuses for the tempter